Why online isn't (Full Version)

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CrappyDom -> Why online isn't (6/16/2006 8:40:38 AM)

Ever read a book or take a class on how to do something and then struggle to do the simplest things on your own? 

Now, I am the first to recommend that people new to S&M read books, but at least those books were written by people who had actually done the things they write about.  Would you choose the doctor fresh out of med school or would you prefer the one who has cut open a few hundred people and gained real world experience to do your brain surgery?

Online is quite real in my opinion, but it isn't real S&M, it isn't real sex, it isn't real relationships, it isn't much of anything, it is just "real online" and NOTHING more.  Combine that with the fact that online self selects for people who often don't have real life relationships and tend not to have any real life S&M experience, you have a recipe for disaster and broken hearts.



OedipusRexIt -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 8:48:02 AM)

If something works for others, I won't knock it, even though I don't understand it.

Online falls into that category for me.  Don't see why anyone would do something simply because words appear on their computer screen.  It just seems  ...... silly.

I get the same high level of seekers of online as other Doms do, and I have politely declined. 

I enjoy conversations with people all over the world, but can't imagine the point of typing "kneel, bitch" or something like that to get someone off...



HollyS -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 8:51:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Online is quite real in my opinion, but it isn't real S&M, it isn't real sex, it isn't real relationships, it isn't much of anything, it is just "real online" and NOTHING more.  Combine that with the fact that online self selects for people who often don't have real life relationships and tend not to have any real life S&M experience, you have a recipe for disaster and broken hearts.


I think you forgot a few critical words here:  "I don't think," "I don't believe," and "I speak only for myself," are all conspicuously missing.  If it's never worked for you or anyone you know, fine.  But you don't speak for me, my friends, or the millions of other people who have found love, friendship and yes, sex in an online environment.  The reality still exists even if you can't imagine it.

Aside from creating a platform for your absolutist opinion, was there a greater purpose to this post? If there was supposed to be some reason for posting such a judgemental dogmatic bit aside from making you feel superiour to those who have online as a part of their lives, it's been lost. 

~Holly



darkinshadows -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 8:54:48 AM)

quote:

it is just "real online" and NOTHING more. 

So is SM - so is domination - so are you - everything is nothing more than it is.  I agree.
 
quote:

Combine that with the fact that online self selects for people who often don't have real life relationships and tend not to have any real life S&M experience, you have a recipe for disaster and broken hearts.
 
I understand you wrote 'often'... and do not mean to generalise.  But there are many people who participate in online domination who have relationship or have experienced life within BDSM - I have met people who attend munches and clubs who have experimented online.
 
I get the feeling that most people who deny the 'reality' of online communication - do so because they are for the want of a different word - sex obsessed.  Most of the people I talk to who have experimented online do not do it for pure sexual release.  It isn't all cyber and getting your rocks off with the first collar offer that comes along. BDSM doesn't have to be sexual.  It doesn't have to be physical.  There are so many diverse ways to be mentally dominated or to submit mentally.  Mental and spiritual control is an incredible power to play with - and there are many facets to such a glorious gem and online is just one of them.
Just thoughts from a tired and overworked artist today who needs a break because shes getting frustrated at annoying colours that just will NOT submit to me.[:)]
 
Peace and Rapture



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 8:55:11 AM)

Like I said in my other posts- real life relationships, long distance relationships and cyber relationships all have completely different dynamics to them. 

But they are all "really" what they are. 



meatcleaver -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 8:59:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Combine that with the fact that online self selects for people who often don't have real life relationships and tend not to have any real life S&M experience, you have a recipe for disaster and broken hearts.


Hell, I agree with you! One online relationship (unlooked for), one disaster. The truth is no one can know who the other person is and online shouldn't be taken seriously as a relationship until you have at least met. Online is easy for people to indulge their fantasies without the fear of them becoming real and this was the disaster I got myself into. The moment the relationship was becoming real was the moment this sub broke things off, after I made so many stupid decisions thinking she was being genuine. I was stupid and gullible and fell for her writing initially (which had nothing to do with BDSM). Actually she can write fantastic BDSM scenarios because she had a great imagination and a wonderful economic style of writing so experience and writing don't necessarily go together.

She drew me into the online BDSM thing which I had trouble getting my head round, it just seemed so fake to me. She spoke like an expert but she wasn't but she communicated with the confidence that a naive person like me fell for. I grew to respect her for what I perceived to be her honesty, trust and integrity. Needless to say she had none of these virtues and was in fact a cyber slut, wanting to be a real slut but whether she was fucked up with her moral values or something else, I'm not sure but she couldn't bring herself to take her fantasies into real life. This I think is true with many onliners, they don't want to move into r/l S&M because they are scared of it.

This was over a couple of years. I was ready to meet after a month, in fact I told her on many occasions, give me the word and I'll be on the next flight  but she always had some excuse that I rather foolishly accepted and respected. Never again. Online sucks and it is no more than what it is. It isn't even a shadow of the real thing.



juliaoceania -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:00:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Like I said in my other posts- real life relationships, long distance relationships and cyber relationships all have completely different dynamics to them. 

But they are all "really" what they are. 


I would agree with you LA, and expand to say all of us are really writing posts on the internet on a message board. People that I talk to via IM are real people. The internet is MAGICAL (I didnt have a pc until I was 31). Much can be done on the computer. For example I use it for bill pay. I do not choose to use it for relationships, although I have used it this way in the past without meaning to. I kinda fell into a situation. I do not have any trouble finding vanilla dates either.



CrappyDom -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:05:51 AM)

Holly,

I didn't forget anything.  You want to have a "cyber relationship" great, more power to you but don't fool yourself into thinking what you do online has any relationship to living, dating, or playing with someone and having that sort of relationship.

It is like saying I am experienced with giving head because I have shoved a vibrator down my throat.  While they both involve similar acts, one is real head the other is artificial.

If you want to dissect my post, find an example of where pretending to do something is better preperation for something than actually doing it.  College graduates are paid MORE the farther they get from college and the more ACTUAL expereince they have.  If doing things in the abstract were so great, movies wouldn't make jokes of people suddenly admiting to their experience being all on simulators.  It is like saying playing computer games is training for real life, you certainly gain skills, but not real life ones.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:07:19 AM)

While I know this is a hot button for many people, primarily because they are themselves involved in an "online" relationship and therefore feel the need to defend it, or someone like myself that has been lied to and played by someone only interested in an online relationship, I have to agree with the basic idea that CD is conveying.
I know that very real feelings can develope with someone online. We tend to share personal feelings and thoughts that most of us would not do, at least not as quickly, with someone we met face to face. This tends to develope some strong emotions at times. However I think that the basic premise is that you cannot ever have the full experience with your computer monitor and keyboard. You cannot wield or feel the physical effect of a riding crop on bare skin. No matter how good our imagination is (and mine is pretty bloody amazing) it's just not even close to the physical reality. I am not going to slam any individual for being involved in any sort of online relationship (at least I try not to) because I don't know their personal circumstances and why they are unable to have a face to face, in person, relationship. I am trying to refrain from using the words "real" and similar, because I do acknowledge that real emotions exist in either situation.
Personally I feel as long as we are all honest about what we want for ourselves and make sure that we do not "false advertise" our intentions this should not be an arguement. What I percieve as "real" for me may just be way too "real" for someone else. My only problem would be when someone led me to believe via an initial web contacting that they definately wanted something in person, therefore "real" to ME, and never had any intention of such. Wasting my time with their lies. I am sure that the mentally ill homeless drunk guy that hangs out in our alley here is convinced the people he is talking to out there are "real", I however do not see them or hear them therefor they are not "real" to me. Obviously he and I have different perceptions. My perception of a real relationship is a delicious female body I can touch, until then its just words on a computer screen.



CrappyDom -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:11:36 AM)

To me, the worst thing about cyber relationships is that people think they are the same as actually living with someone.  There is so much more work, so much more give and take that goes into making a real live relationship work that people who make the switch often run into massive problems.  Just look at the questions about similar things that so often get asked here and by whom.



OedipusRexIt -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:11:38 AM)

Wow, this devolved into "he said, she said" with incredible speed.

While I believe in letting people define their own reality from their own perspective, there is "real" and then there's "real". 

I wouldn't want to disabuse someone of the value of their online fanstasy life, but it is indeed a fantasy to be dominant or submissive to a person you've never spent any face time with.  It's, of necessity, in your mind.

It quickly becomes apparent that the person on the other end could be virtually anyone,  so long as they assist in the masturbation, mental or otherwise, that characterizes online.  Who can honestly (that's right, honestly, not sanctimoniously, not fanatically and not blindly) say they actually know someone they've never met and are therefore truly devoted?

I will now make way for all the 100% certain-of-everything, multi-paragraph rebuttals.  Meanwhile, I gaze at a creamy white breast that could give the FBI all five fingerprints and think:

Online/schmonline.  Gimme reality.



CrappyDom -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:14:07 AM)

Rex,

Great post!  Just look at how many of the "female" submissive profiles on here are actually men.  I bet 1/3 of the ones with pictures are men and about 75% of the super young and hot ones are certainly men just looking to wank it.



AAkasha -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:14:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Ever read a book or take a class on how to do something and then struggle to do the simplest things on your own? 

Now, I am the first to recommend that people new to S&M read books, but at least those books were written by people who had actually done the things they write about.  Would you choose the doctor fresh out of med school or would you prefer the one who has cut open a few hundred people and gained real world experience to do your brain surgery?

Online is quite real in my opinion, but it isn't real S&M, it isn't real sex, it isn't real relationships, it isn't much of anything, it is just "real online" and NOTHING more.  Combine that with the fact that online self selects for people who often don't have real life relationships and tend not to have any real life S&M experience, you have a recipe for disaster and broken hearts.


People that dismiss online domination so eagerly are people who believe they have mastery over BDSM because they have physical skillsets and think it's all about how you act, how you look, and what you do with your body.  They completely ignore the fact that the brain is key to all of this, and unless you get into someone's mind, you can be the most dynamic dominant in the world but really are putting your submissive to sleep.  You may make them feel a lot of sensations, but make them emotionally feel NOTHING.

I've done both real life and online domination.  The intense online domination is not one dimensionally and fluffy as some people define.  The problem with those that diss online domination is that they may have tried it, but like many things, they did not have a clue what they were doing, so of course both people thought it sucked.

If lots of people are finding very enriching experiences online and you don't, maybe you are bad at it.  Maybe you can't get your "head" around the mental aspects of BDSM and are limited in scope to those things that require physical play.  If so, I feel bad for your *real life* bdsm lovers, because perhaps you never really get into their head.

Akasha



thetammyjo -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:14:26 AM)

Online does not work for me and I frankly don't "grok" things that are only online. Because of this I do not place as much value on online as I do meatlife stuff but this only plays out when I meet folks or am interviewing folks, not in how I value what the posters on this group say for instance.

Realistically how can I know that any of you (or how can any of you know me enough) to say that this person has meatlife experience? I have only your online words for the vast majority of you. I try to value what is said by the words used, the examples used, and a history of posts from that person.

For some people though online may be all that they desire or all that they feel they can have. It can be a way to explore things intellectually but the mind is not the same as the body and the mind responds differs from situation to situation, environment to environment. Thus when I ask people how much experience they have I want it split up between online, meatlife, books, movies, in their head, slap & tickle games, etc.

On here, in this venue, they can only give me words.

I can only give them words.



CrappyDom -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:21:05 AM)

Akasha,

I realize having a financial motive to support the fantasy of online BS is a strong one, however, I have to thank you for proving my point so eloquently.

I have in fact posted here that I think D/s can be done online although it pales in comparison to the richness possible in real life.  As for my lovers, you can pine for them and I will pine for the men you rob blind with lies and illusions.



darkinshadows -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:21:33 AM)

But the point you are missing is that online communication is relevant.  There are relationships formed.
If there wasn't - why even both posting this on this particualr forum?
 
You are posting to get your point across.  You are forming a relationship with the people reading the post right now.  You will never get to meet the majority of them.  But it is obviously important for you to make your mark.
 
Online is 'just real online and nothing more'.
 
You are Crappy Dom and nothing more.
 
The computer that I am using at the moment is nothing more than a computer.
 
Discipline is nothing more than discipline.
 
Each is a tool.  People I write to - I have a relationship with.  I ask their thoughts, their advice, and I don't discard their responses because they are written.  If you want to use computers as an example, people use them everyday to train and learn.  Makes the teaching no less relevant.  Just because a college grad gets further because of their experience, just doesn't mean it makes them the best for the job.
 
The analagy of the vibe has no relevance.  Those are still experiences - but they are different ones.  I do not think I have ever seen or heard someone say that online is just like realtime - but I have seen many claim them to be just as important as each other.
 
You can try and belittle online as worthless - I could do the same about you and claim that you are not that strong a dominant or real, because you could not dominate me.  Both statements would be totally invalid to someone else, which would make them both untrue.
 
Peace and Rapture
 



darkinshadows -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:27:21 AM)

quote:

Who can honestly (that's right, honestly, not sanctimoniously, not fanatically and not blindly) say they actually know someone they've never met and are therefore truly devoted?

I love your posts.
 
I have to say that - with the increase in divorce and seperations worldwide - I think we can safely say that no one truely can say they know anyone - even if they have met them.  How many bigamists are out here in the 'real world'... those people leading 'double lives'... affairs, lovers, friends... no one truely knows another and cannot really be as devoted - be it 'realtime' or 'online'.
 
Peace and Rapture



sublizzie -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:28:34 AM)

While there is some truth in what you have said, it still all depends on the people involved.

I have a very close friend who is mostly an on-line one. We communicate using email and IM. Occasionally there's a phone call. This August I will see him for the 3rd time face-to-face in 4 years. No he is not my Dom, though he is Dom. We're friends only.

I know him better than I know any of the Dom/mes I have known face-to-face almost as long. Not because I don't communicate with the "real" people but because we take the time and effort to work at communicating the important aspects of our lives with each other. He asks me in-depth questions. He tells me intimate stuff. We have worked to become good friends.

Due to that in-depth communication we know that we would probably kill each other if we spent more than a week at a time with one another. It didn't need face-to-face to determine that. We figured that out WAY before we met in the flesh.

I do not do on-line submission. I have too great a need for physical touch. But I can understand how the mental aspects of D/s could, with a lot of persistance on both parts, work.



CrappyDom -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:31:09 AM)

I am having a real conversation online, a real conversation consists of words, an exchange of ideas, one CAN do that online.  I would however NEVER negotiate a business deal nor a scene online because I could not hear and see my partner, I could not "read" them. 

As for my "mark" you are correct, I am here to do that and meet woman with whom I hope to see in real life.  However, all I expect them to "see" online is my intellect, nothing more.  Not my character, not my behavior, not much of anything but a promise, a glimpse of who I am.  The only way to do that is by spending time at my feet, waking up to my caress, seeing how I treat others, and in general spending time in my actual physical presence.

Doing otherwise would be like watching porn to learn how to seduce and make love to women.



MistressLorelei -> RE: Why online isn't (6/16/2006 9:31:23 AM)

I choose not to 'play' in cyberland, unless it's with someone I have met, as there are so many potential loopholes.  Some people seek online relationships knowing it will never go beyond a computer, and I do not wish to invest My time pursuing the potentially un-pursuable.  Some relationships do start online and finish with wedding bells or real-time collars, and two people seeking online only make a good couple...  but for Me, I would rather experience what I 'know' about.... even if finding the right partner to experience it with takes a bit more effort.

I do think that there is still much to be learned from people who have been involved in online only.  Often in online situations, a dynamic, a bond, research, time, and experimentation exist.  I don't think I'd buy the book on real-time Domination by an online only Dom... but there is a bit to be learned from most everyone.   I created My earliest real-time 'scene' in My mind before experiencing it... once it became 'real'... it didn't change its original value.



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