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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 4:32:06 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
If that is the definition of coercion... wouldnt it be the same as forcing an DUI to go to AA?

Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/?p=784
Three federal circuit courts have held that coerced participation in 12-step programs like AA and NA violates the First Amendment. In Kerr v. Ferry, 95 F.3d 472 (7th Cir. 1996), the Seventh Circuit held that requiring an inmate to attend NA meetings or risk suffering adverse effects for parole eligibility violated the Establishment Clause. The Second Circuit reached a similar conclusion in Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation, 115 F.3d 1068 (2d Cir. 1997), striking a probation condition requiring attendance at AA meetings. And most recently the Ninth Circuit determined that a parolee’s First Amendment rights were violated when his parole officer forced him to attend 12-step meetings as a condition of his parole. Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F.3d 705 (9th Cir. 2007). In the latter two cases the courts found the law sufficiently clearly established to abrogate the officers’ qualified immunity.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 4:44:27 PM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How is it forced if he agreed to it?


It constitutes coercion.



In theory, the consequence for what he was "guilty" of is a prison term.

The judge offered him an alternative. The boy voluntarily took it.

That isn't coercion.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 4:55:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Kerr v. Ferry

DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judge. The question pre- sented in this case is whether a state correctional institu- tion may require an inmate, upon pain of being rated a higher security risk and suffering adverse effects for parole eligibility, to attend a substance abuse counseling program with explicit religious content, consistent with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation

Defendant County appeals from findings of U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York (Goettel, J.) that the defendant county did not make a contention of consent, waiver or forfeiture in the district court and that, in any event, the plaintiff did not consent to the religious aspects of his probation sentence or forfeit his claim under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 by failing to object to or appeal from his sentence.

Inouye v. Kemna

Ricky K. Inouye alleges violations of his First Amendment rights by his parole officer.   He filed this 42 U.S.C. § 1983 action, now carried forward by his son, Zenn K. Inouye (“Zenn”), the personal representative of Inouye's estate.1

Inouye charges that Mark Nanamori, his parole officer, violated the Establishment Clause by requiring Inouye to attend Alcoholics Anonymous/Narcotics Anonymous (“AA/NA”) meetings as a condition of his parole.   The District Court of Hawaii granted summary judgment against Inouye.   We now reverse the district court on this claim and remand for further proceedings.2

I will let you try and find the difference between these cases and pre-sentencing agreements.

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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 5:29:34 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

The judge offered him an alternative. The boy voluntarily took it.

The story doesnt say but.. I wonder how the victim's family feel about that..

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 5:39:09 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		The church requirement is just one of the conditions that Norman placed on Alred's deferred sentence. The judge also ordered him to finish high school and complete welding school. Both Alred's attorney and the victim's family agreed to the terms of the sentence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/20/tyler-alred-sentenced-to-church-oklahoma-judge-defends_n_2162593.html

Its a shame I have to use multiple sources to find out the basic information.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 5:42:26 PM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

The judge offered him an alternative. The boy voluntarily took it.

The story doesnt say but.. I wonder how the victim's family feel about that..


The victim's family was good with it, according to the reports. I can't remember it verbatim, but they said something to the affect that they didn't want to see two lives ended.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 7:09:23 PM   
tj444


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Status: offline 		I guess they see it more as a mistake then, not a you-do-the-crime, you-do-the-time thing..

Well,.. he is given the chance to straighten himself out, hope he can do that..

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 7:17:42 PM   
Marini


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quote:

The victim's family was good with it, according to the reports. I can't remember it verbatim, but they said something to the affect that they didn't want to see two lives ended.


marie, you have to marvel at how forgiving that his family, especially his parents appear to be.
Even though it was an accident, not many people would agree to his sentencing, after losing a child.


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 7:30:39 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
marie, you have to marvel at how forgiving that his family, especially his parents appear to be.
Even though it was an accident, not many people would agree to his sentencing, after losing a child.


well,.. their son (had he been drinking too?) also made the choice to get into the truck with the driver who had been drinking.. that was a mistake also.. but imo, a common mistake when you are a kid.. I would say peer pressure is more to blame than anything.. kids start smoking, drinking, doing drugs, etc cuz their friends do & they want to fit in.. few kids have the guts to not do exactly what their friends do...

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As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 7:34:12 PM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		good point tj!

I am thinking both the boys were drinking and maybe they were best friends.

Such a sad situation for all involved.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/25/2012 7:38:52 PM   
marie2


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

The victim's family was good with it, according to the reports. I can't remember it verbatim, but they said something to the affect that they didn't want to see two lives ended.


marie, you have to marvel at how forgiving that his family, especially his parents appear to be.
Even though it was an accident, not many people would agree to his sentencing, after losing a child.



I suppose they are taking the high road....Maybe they had known this kid and his family for a while...I don't know.

If it were me who had lost my child, I'd be an emotional basket case. However, from a non-emotional point of view, if a person is killed in this fashion, I'd likely think that he/she might have been drinking too, and might bear some responsibility for getting in the car to begin with.

I do wonder why the passenger who is killed in these types of cases is never held at least somewhat responsible for their own fate. That doesn't exonnerate the driver, of course. In this particular case, I have a hard time blaming just the one kid, knowing it was a mistake that any of us could have made at that age, and that this will haunt him for the rest of his life. I can't imagine going on having that burden to carry with me for the rest of my days. I don't know, I suppose that would be a "lifetime sentence" of it's own kind. It's just sad all the way around.

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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 5:12:41 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I will let you try and find the difference between these cases and pre-sentencing agreements.


Of course you will, snark is your go to position when you can't construct a valid argument.

There certainly are a number of differences but that doesn't in any way change the act of coercion. Judge Mike Norman is abusing his office to promote his faith. You can't do that, it's settled law. While it's ok to coerce criminals into things like rehab it's not ok to coerce them into religion, there are quite a few court cases on that. It's settled enough at this point that our legal system has started taking punitive actions against the coercers (which of course was the point of the links I put up).

The Judge figures that he'll get away with it because he's threatened the defendant with the maximum sentence so he's unlikely to appeal:
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7981-teen-sentenced-to-church-for-manslaughter#.ULKz1WeKWSo

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 5:21:30 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Defense attorney Donn Baker said he had no intention of challenging the judge’s decision. "My client goes to church every Sunday," Baker said. "That isn't going to be a problem for him. We certainly want the probation for him."


Just as I thought.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 5:22:30 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The church requirement is just one of the conditions that Norman placed on Alred's deferred sentence. The judge also ordered him to finish high school and complete welding school. Both Alred's attorney and the victim's family agreed to the terms of the sentence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/20/tyler-alred-sentenced-to-church-oklahoma-judge-defends_n_2162593.html

Its a shame I have to use multiple sources to find out the basic information.


It's a shame you have to find basic information....in anything in life. (Most of us already have at least that as a foundation).

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 5:25:58 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Too bad you dont have it in math

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 7:25:17 AM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Judge Mike Norman is abusing his office to promote his faith. You can't do that, it's settled law. While it's ok to coerce criminals into things like rehab it's not ok to coerce them into religion, there are quite a few court cases on that. It's settled enough at this point that our legal system has started taking punitive actions against the coercers (which of course was the point of the links I put up).


I found this interesting, the Judge doesnt even believe forcing people to go to church makes a difference, since they "soon forget once they get out of jail", but his enormous ego shows thru cuz he thinks he "led more people to Jesus" than the preacher did.. Wow,.. just WOW..

"“I told my preacher I thought I led more people to Jesus than he had but, then again, more of my people have amnesia,” Norman said. “They soon forget once they get out of jail.”"

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 7:27:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		This will become an issue when/if they try to revoke his probation based solely upon him not going to church. Then it will become a court battle.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 7:50:07 AM   
MstrPBK


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Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		I saw this news someplace else ... My first thought was going to church does not make a person better. It is what they do in life that is important.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 7:52:20 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Very true. Whats to keep this kid from taking an IPod (or other such device) to church and tuning everything out? Absolutely nothing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MstrPBK)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 3:23:23 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How is it forced if he agreed to it?


It constitutes coercion.



In theory, the consequence for what he was "guilty" of is a prison term.

The judge offered him an alternative. The boy voluntarily took it.

That isn't coercion.

I gotta disagree strenuously there. Prison for 10 years vs ?????????? most certainly IS coercion.
I mean, by your definition, sticking a gun to someone's head to have them hand over the car keys isn't coercion.

_____________________________

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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