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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 4:20:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I mean, by your definition, sticking a gun to someone's head to have them hand over the car keys isn't coercion.

Well, of course, if the fellow shoots me in the leg or shoulder and then advises me to avoid further inconvenience by leaving my car running and getting the fuck out of it, I'd have to say that would be getting off on the wrong foot. But in my case, I was simply presented with a 9mm semi-auto up close in my face and a cordial inquiry into the extent of my understanding of the situation. And I can tell you for a certainty that far from feeling coerced to do something that I didn't want to do, I found myself wholly and completely behind the idea of not getting shot. This proved to be in accord with the robber's preference as well, and it would be fair to say that we were of one mind in the matter before us. Things proceded fairly pleasantly from there.

But I take your point.

K.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 5:42:23 PM   
thompsonx


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I read about a similar case in mexico where two drunks ran their truck into a house and killed the husband and bread winner of the family that lived there. The judge sentenced the two drunks to spend their time working to support the widow and children of the deceased .

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 5:50:34 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I mean, by your definition, sticking a gun to someone's head to have them hand over the car keys isn't coercion.

Well, of course, if the fellow shoots me in the leg or shoulder and then advises me to avoid further inconvenience by leaving my car running and getting the fuck out of it, I'd have to say that would be getting off on the wrong foot. But in my case, I was simply presented with a 9mm semi-auto up close in my face and a cordial inquiry into the extent of my understanding of the situation. And I can tell you for a certainty that far from feeling coerced to do something that I didn't want to do, I found myself wholly and completely behind the idea of not getting shot. This proved to be in accord with the robber's preference as well, and it would be fair to say that we were of one mind in the matter before us. Things proceded fairly pleasantly from there.

But I take your point.

K.



In my case one of the advantages of driving a multi-colored pos with no virgin fenders has the advantage that no one wants to steal it.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/26/2012 7:51:01 PM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How is it forced if he agreed to it?


It constitutes coercion.



In theory, the consequence for what he was "guilty" of is a prison term.

The judge offered him an alternative. The boy voluntarily took it.

That isn't coercion.

I gotta disagree strenuously there. Prison for 10 years vs ?????????? most certainly IS coercion.
I mean, by your definition, sticking a gun to someone's head to have them hand over the car keys isn't coercion.


I think sticking a gun to an innocent person's head thereby "forcing" them to turn over the keys or be killed is coercion.

On the other hand, someone facing a prison term for manslaughter because that's the common sentence, being giving an another option instead, isn't coercion.

He plead guilty to manslaughter....Manslaughter carries the consequence of a prison term.

You can take the usual prison term that you would have gotten anyway, OR you can have option number two; a route that might be more affective in your rehabilitation.

Had the judge said "Prison, because I feel like making an idle threat, or church", then it would be coercion. But that's not the case. He would go to prison because he was guilty of manslaughter not because the judge pulled that out of his ass as an empty threat designed to "coerce". This is the whole reason behind plea bargaining. It isn't coercion if you're guilty and work out a deal that's more favorable for you than going to prison.



< Message edited by marie2 -- 11/26/2012 7:53:19 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 11:12:06 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
On the other hand, someone facing a prison term for manslaughter because that's the common sentence, being giving an another option instead, isn't coercion.


First of all he threatened the kid with the maximum sentence for manslaughter, somehow I doubt that's the common sentence when there are enough mitigating factors for the Judge to suspend the sentence entirely.

Second, you should check the definition of coerced. Whether the person being coerced is guilty or innocent has no bearing on whether the act is coercive.

Third if the coercion was for something other than church, I suspect you'd be able to see the abuse of power more clearly. How about sex, if the defendant got to trade his sentence for giving a blow job, you'd be able to figure out that blow job was coerced right?

Forth, it is coercion and an abuse of Judicial authority, this is well established case law.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 11/27/2012 11:13:01 AM >

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 11:27:10 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Second, you should check the definition of coerced.

You might want to consider doing that too...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

if the defendant got to trade his sentence for giving a blow job, you'd be able to figure out that blow job was coerced right?

Coercion requires that the "coerced" not want to perform the action. It would not be coercion to offer me a suspended sentence on the condition that I fuck Angelina Jolie senseless.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 11:39:19 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Second, you should check the definition of coerced.

You might want to consider doing that too...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

if the defendant got to trade his sentence for giving a blow job, you'd be able to figure out that blow job was coerced right?

Coercion requires that the "coerced" not want to perform the action. It would not be coercion to offer me a suspended sentence on the condition that I fuck Angelina Jolie senseless.

K.

What about Michelle Bachman?

_____________________________

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 12:10:19 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Second, you should check the definition of coerced.

You might want to consider doing that too...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

if the defendant got to trade his sentence for giving a blow job, you'd be able to figure out that blow job was coerced right?

Coercion requires that the "coerced" not want to perform the action. It would not be coercion to offer me a suspended sentence on the condition that I fuck Angelina Jolie senseless.

K.


Since the kid goes to church already..... no coercion.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 12:12:10 PM   
wilddreams17


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Status: offline 		I always thought church on sunday felt like time in prison



< Message edited by wilddreams17 -- 11/27/2012 12:13:01 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 12:13:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Never been to prison, huh.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to wilddreams17)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 12:32:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		I spent 5 hours in jail once. That was damn well plenty.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 12:48:53 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Second, you should check the definition of coerced.

You might want to consider doing that too...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

if the defendant got to trade his sentence for giving a blow job, you'd be able to figure out that blow job was coerced right?

Coercion requires that the "coerced" not want to perform the action. It would not be coercion to offer me a suspended sentence on the condition that I fuck Angelina Jolie senseless.

K.

What about Michelle Bachman?

She probably would need to be coerced into fucking Angelina Jolie.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 12:49:28 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I always thought church on sunday felt like time in prison


I was in jail half the night a few years back...it was cold and I did Sun Salutations to keep warm. When they moved me in with other women, I convinced them to huddle up for warmth.

This was nothing like church...

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RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 3:10:56 PM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I spent 5 hours in jail once. That was damn well plenty.



I spent 5 hours in church once. It made me horny.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 3:46:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I spent 5 hours in jail once. That was damn well plenty.



I spent 5 hours in church once. It made me horny.

I got a blow job in the choir loft once...I would recognize the top of that head anywhere...was that you?

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 3:48:51 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I always thought church on sunday felt like time in prison


I was in jail half the night a few years back...it was cold and I did Sun Salutations to keep warm. When they moved me in with other women, I convinced them to huddle up for warmth.

This was nothing like church...


The women I have seen in jail were not the sort I would "huddle" with

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/27/2012 3:50:19 PM   
absolutchocolat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


I spent 5 hours in church once. It made me horny.


good, i'm not the only one going to hell for that then.

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/28/2012 8:30:56 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Since the kid goes to church already..... no coercion.


This is a good point, some definitions of coercion require that the victim be unwilling. Others don't mention that, possibly out of a realization that it's difficult to impossible to tell the difference between a willing victim and a successfully coerced victim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/coercion/
Coercion generally means to impose one's will on another by means of force or threats. Coercion may be accomplished through physical or psychological means. It may occur in a variety of contexts, such as unfair trade practices, which prohibits coercion to sell insurance in most states.

Definitions vary by state and federal laws. For example, one state defines coercion as a crime when a person compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from engaging in, or to abstain from engaging in conduct in which he has a legal right to engage, by means of instilling in him a fear that, if the demand is not complied with, the actor or another will cause physical injury to a person or cause damage to property.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Judge sentences teen to church - 11/28/2012 9:25:40 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

it's difficult to impossible to tell the difference between a willing victim and a successfully coerced victim.

Difficult for who?

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 79
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