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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 4:15:46 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not going to respond to the OP, since plenty of people have already done it, and it would feel repititous. Instead, i'm going to respond to a couple of the posts here.

There seems to be an all around confusion between discipline and punishment. Discipline is used to correct a mistake, or from what i've heard, to keep a mistake from happening in the first place. Punishment is exactly what it sounds like: you're being punished for something you did wrong.

I suppose i am going to comment on the OP. I haven't read the thread that the OP is talking about, so i don't know what the circumstances were. But from the questions asked by the thread starter, i can get an idea.

I don't know why you care how another submissive is disciplined or punished. The fact is, it's up to the person whether or not to feel shamed. Her dominant didn't know she would feel shame (unless he's a mind reader). Do all murderers feel shame after a crime has been commited? So, do all submissives feel shame after they displease their dominants? I doubt it. Some might revel in the attention they get from punishment or discipline; even if it's negative attention.

This being said, i agree with everything Playful said.

You can't, and shouldn't blame somebody for trying to make you feel shame. It's all up to you whether or not you feel it.

monica



(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 4:53:04 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Now I am not in anyone else's dynamic and to each their own, but I do not mind discipline, in fact I need it! I will not tolerate being punished.


Julia, get OUT of my mind! LOL I can not tell you how many times I have written these same words! I see a big difference between the two. I just wish more people understood the difference.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 4:56:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Now I am not in anyone else's dynamic and to each their own, but I do not mind discipline, in fact I need it! I will not tolerate being punished.


Julia, get OUT of my mind! LOL I can not tell you how many times I have written these same words! I see a big difference between the two. I just wish more people understood the difference.


All you need is One that knows the difference and they are out there... I can email you with how I used to detect those who didn't know the difference if you like? I am seeing someone who very well understands because he is disciplined within himself.... there are others out there like him

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:01:44 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
As a huge Alanis fan, I love your quote and wish more people enjoyed it,


Alanis is awesome...Glad I found another fan. I love the "Collection" CD, and just about everything she writes


Count me in as one more in the Alanis fan club.
You see everything
You see every part
You see all my light
And you love my dark
You dig everything
Of which I'm ashamed
There's not anything to which you can't relate
And you're still here
 
Got a complete shiver down my spine the first time I heard her sing these words in the song Everything.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to irishbynature)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:04:24 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
All you need is One that knows the difference and they are out there... I can email you with how I used to detect those who didn't know the difference if you like? I am seeing someone who very well understands because he is disciplined within himself.... there are others out there like him


Send me the email, by all means...

Send me the other Doms who "get it" while you're there too, will ya?

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:10:19 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		ok is this where julia stuffs all us Dominants in a box and calls Fed-Ex fora pick up . lmfao ...
 
sorry it's beer thirty and I am having a great night ....  and I feel no shame for it ...

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:11:17 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Anything for you Irish!

Main Entry: 1shame
Pronunciation: 'shAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion
2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY
3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame



So, by this definition, a submissive is likely to feel shame, if they're a self-aware person, sincere about their submission, wouldn't you say? A dominant would'nt need to bring on increased shame unless they felt the sub didn't feel any regret for their actions.

And Julia, you are definitely right about "too much shame". Toxic shame can cause very serious mental health issues.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:20:55 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		you live you learn
you love you learn
you cry you learn
you lose you learn
you bleed you learn
you scream you learn
you grieve you learn
you choke you learn
you laugh you learn
you choose you learn
you ask you learn
you pray you learn
you live you learn





_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:26:08 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamerofwild1s

ok is this where julia stuffs all us Dominants in a box and calls Fed-Ex fora pick up . lmfao ...


Nah, only the very intelligent ones over 40, who are single, live a life of truth and honour, and live near me... ::sighs:: No wonder I'm still a subbie-on-the-loose, I'm too picky!

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:28:23 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		I don't get it either.  Maybe it has to do with the whole "comming online to post it" thing.   What shame is posting about a said discipline or punishment to people you don't know?  online even!   i don't get it.
My shame would involve what i did to let my Master down, that i had to be punished or disciplined for that action.  To hell with anyone else.  No offense, but come onnnn...
Ehhhhhhh, everyone's different i 'spose.

Happy Friday y'all!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to irishbynature)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:41:08 PM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline 		This is just my opinion, but i have absolutely nothing against a little shame, discipline,  or punishment, Of course i try never to earn the discipline or punishment....but...if we are speeding in our cars...are we not "shamed"  for a brief period,  having to be at the side of the road with the lights flashing....and are we not "punished" and "disciplined" by having to pay a fine....and possibly having points on our license?   I'ts all the same in my mind once i've given someone  that authority.  As in most things the secret to success is finding the Person who's views are compatible with your own.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:43:51 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		if you can catch a girl in that mood......it is powerful.  will you be ready by 10 tonight?

lol, i BET you didn't get that.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to spankmepink11)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 5:52:56 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamerofwild1s

ok is this where julia stuffs all us Dominants in a box and calls Fed-Ex fora pick up . lmfao ...


Nah, only the very intelligent ones over 40, who are single, live a life of truth and honour, and live near me... ::sighs:: No wonder I'm still a subbie-on-the-loose, I'm too picky!


*hugs my friend*......... nawwww, not too picky, just know what you need.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 6:00:40 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

In lieu of certian collarme dom(s) moving to my locale, from distant places un-Canadian, I guess I'll settle for the hug!

quote:



*hugs my friend*......... nawwww, not too picky, just know what you need.


_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 7:27:09 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

Nah, only the very intelligent ones over 40, who are single, live a life of truth and honour, and live near me... ::sighs:: No wonder I'm still a subbie-on-the-loose, I'm too picky!


If you find any of those, let me know.  Of course, I'm no longer sure what I'd do with one anymore, but maybe it will come back to me.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/16/2006 7:48:07 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		ok if I drink a bottle of Molson and say ehh alot after I speak can I get in the box . lmaoooooo
 
 and a big hug to ya

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 12:41:47 AM   
timeoutgurlie


Posts: 588
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline 		For myself, I'd term it as being a disappointment in myself for being displeasing to him rather than being 'ashamed' of myself.

Not sure if I'm the only one who thinks & feels the two are separate, but that's my answer anyhow

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 5:56:24 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I ask simply .. Did the Shame cause the girl to feel Humbled!  or did they feel Degraded!

One is useful for character development and ... The other is not!  For some the act you describe would be Degrading... or others is would be Humbling. 

I try to be cognizant of the effects that any act has on my girls and most definitely not going to condem others methods just because I don't use them or make self-elevating comments at the expense of others either.  What matters is the effect! is it postive and constructive for those involved or not!?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to irishbynature)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 6:33:29 AM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

lol, i BET you didn't get that.




(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 6:58:46 AM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620
I don't know why you care how another submissive is disciplined or punished. The fact is, it's up to the person whether or not to feel shamed. Her dominant didn't know she would feel shame (unless he's a mind reader). Do all murderers feel shame after a crime has been commited? So, do all submissives feel shame after they displease their dominants? I doubt it. Some might revel in the attention they get from punishment or discipline; even if it's negative attention.
monica


I hear and understand your point. However, the thread I made was about "shame vs. discipline" not punishment vs. discipline.

To understand ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis),  means that when someone continues to repeat an unwanted behavior, they do so to get some kind of attention, hence, the punishment isn't working. He's not punishing her, he's shaming her. The OP  I took the topic from was related to a sub who continued the same behaviors and would feel shame afterwards..but shame from Him.

Why do I care? I care because that person is a human being who continues to feel shame. Remorse is quite different. Guilt or remorse does keep society in-line as far as not committing crimes, etc.. Shame is quite different. 

I worry about Doms who get pleasure from hurting a person's self-worth, instead of building them up via caring and helping them grow, and the subs who tolerate it.

I hope that made sense? *Smiles* Irish


_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


(in reply to litleone8620)
Profile   Post #: 40
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