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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 7:01:27 AM

bandit25

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Ah, julia. Yes, I can't stand that feeling of not being good enough. I agree with discipline. I suppose there may be reasons for punishment also, but shame does bother me. I'm the type of person who wants to live up to what someone thinks of me; that is, if He thinks I'm a "plum" well, then that's just what I'm going to strive to achieve.

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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 7:02:02 AM

irishbynature

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[/quote]

Count me in as one more in the Alanis fan club.

You see everything
You see every part
You see all my light
And you love my dark
You dig everything
Of which I'm ashamed
There's not anything to which you can't relate
And you're still here

Got a complete shiver down my spine the first time I heard her sing these words in the song Everything.
[/quote]

You actually posted my favorite lyrics from that song It is quite intoxicating, huh? I sort of think of the song as the way "Real love" is to be...smiles, Irish

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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 7:30:28 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

Guilt or remorse does keep society in-line as far as not committing crimes, etc.. Shame is quite different.

Considering that "guilt" is the word used to define shame... shame and guilt are really not define very different from each other

"a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety "

Except that with Guilt is used in a context of having feelings of "Doing something wrong". While shame is feeling of "Being inadequate for doing something wrong or unable to do something right" The thing with shame... Does the feeling of inadequacy harm the well-being of the person and their general self-esteem (Degrading them) or does the feeling of inadequacy Motivate them to overcome this inadequacy and improve themself.

As I stated in a previous thread. To many Individuals get tied to a specific course of action (cause) to push for a desired result (effect). They keep with the same action expecting the resulting behavior will change and when it doesn't... instead of changing the action to get a different result... they keep with the same action expecting a different result. I quote what I said in previous thread

quote:

I have done a lot of research and consideration of the whole concept of Punishment/Reward within the relationship of M/s. I have tried various avenues of thought and the one way that I find that has worked the best for me is to avoid limiting myself to the narrow view of the Punishment/Reward scenario. I don't feel that a given Cause will consistently result in a given "Effect". It is true that on occasions that a particular "Cause" can result in an expected "Effect" to some degree of certainty. However, managing people is much different than managing a thing. I can push a glass of water over the edge of a table (the cause) and the glass will fall spilling the contents (the effect). I can do this given action a million times and each time the effect will be consistent result, spilled contents. But, are people that predictable? I think not. Even the slights changes in the variables will result in a difference in the effects.

The purpose of Punishment/Rewards is to bring about a given effect. I find that to many individuals consider that a given Cause will consistently result in the wanted effect. I work more in a reverse to that concept. I consider the desired effect that I want and execute the cause that I consider has the best probability of achieving what I want. One must observe and perceive as much of the given situation as possible in making decision of what actions or inactions (cause) will result in my desired results (effect). I am always considering what is occurring and making the comparison to what I want and Making adjustments as needed to bring the two into alignment.

So is the action that is causing "Shame" getting the person to change their behavior? What is the effects by the given cause? Not everyone will react the same way for any given action. Sometimes an individauls own reaction to a given action can change from the norm for there behaviors. It would be nice if every problem was a Nail and then we could all use Hammers. But oh what a boring life that would be.

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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 8:53:00 AM

litleone8620

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620
I don't know why you care how another submissive is disciplined or punished. The fact is, it's up to the person whether or not to feel shamed. Her dominant didn't know she would feel shame (unless he's a mind reader). Do all murderers feel shame after a crime has been commited? So, do all submissives feel shame after they displease their dominants? I doubt it. Some might revel in the attention they get from punishment or discipline; even if it's negative attention.
monica

I hear and understand your point. However, the thread I made was about "shame vs. discipline" not punishment vs. discipline.

To understand ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis), means that when someone continues to repeat an unwanted behavior, they do so to get some kind of attention, hence, the punishment isn't working. He's not punishing her, he's shaming her. The OP I took the topic from was related to a sub who continued the same behaviors and would feel shame afterwards..but shame from Him.

Why do I care? I care because that person is a human being who continues to feel shame. Remorse is quite different. Guilt or remorse does keep society in-line as far as not committing crimes, etc.. Shame is quite different.

I worry about Doms who get pleasure from hurting a person's self-worth, instead of building them up via caring and helping them grow, and the subs who tolerate it.

I hope that made sense? *Smiles* Irish

I understand where you're coming from. But if the submissive doesn't want to feel shame, they're not going to; even if their dominant tells them to. You can't tell someone to feel something they're not feeling.

Of course her shame is going to be from him. He's the one discipling her. He's the one she disappointed.

I'm not so sure that shame hurts a person's self worth. I know it doesn't hurt mine. And i obviously can't speak for dominants, but i know some who don't like to use 'shame' to either punish or disciplne their submissive.

Some submissives enjoy being disciplined like that, and might even continue to do so after the fact. If the submissive doesn't like being disciplined, and therefore, feel shamed, then they shouldn't be doing things that her dominant feels requires discipline.

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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 12:48:24 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Anything for you Irish!

Main Entry: 1shame
Pronunciation: 'shAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion
2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY
3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame

Like I said, all shame isnt bad, but the feeling comes from within. If someone is constantly shaming us it could be hard for our self esteem to take. But not all shame is bad, it helps us to change our behavior.

I agree and I think being aware of the definition above...which you were so kind to put forth...makes it easier to use it as a tool as long as both dominant and submissive keep the definition in mind.

I use discipline with my submissive. I am not fond of punishment, though I will do so on the rare occasion. I never punish physically.

If my submissive commits a 'wrong' act and I call her on it and tell her why her actions displease/disappoint me before I decide that the only way to change the behavior is by implementing stricter measures (repetition, whatever) and my statement of my displeasure makes her feel ashamed of herself, am I now a 'bad' dominant? I don't think so.

A good, healthy feeling of self-worth and self-esteem is a good thing and, in MOO, a dominant can be very helpful in helping a submissive with that. However, self-esteem and self-worth that are gained only because the submissive is so fragile that she cannot handle well-deserved correction/discipline...i.e. consequences... brought about by her own behavior but is instead always let go, even in those times where the bad behavior was deliberate, with a pat on the head and a "you'll do better next time" is hollow at it's very core because it is unearned self-esteem. It is sort of like the soccer games that some schools want to institute now...where no team ever wins and everybody gets a trophy at the end of the year.

MOO, YMMV

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RE: Shame or Discipline? - 6/17/2006 8:53:50 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
You actually posted my favorite lyrics from that song It is quite intoxicating, huh? I sort of think of the song as the way "Real love" is to be...smiles, Irish

I think of "Everything" as just being grateful to be with someone who accepts you as you and understanding that we've all got different levels operating at the same time.

But for me, the Alanis song that explains what "love" is for me is from "You Owe Me Nothing in Return" on her "So Called Chaos" album

"You owe me nothing for giving the love that I give.
You owe me nothing for caring the way that I have.
I give you thanks for receiving, it's my privilege,
And you owe me nothing in return. "

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