RE: Palestine gets UN observer status.

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (Full Version)

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sensualslut4u -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 4:30:12 PM)
" when Israeli government after Israeli government have claimed there is no such thing as a Palestian people" interesting fabrication. If the stance of successive Israeli governments was that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, who are they negotiating with....when negotiations are on? Have you ever read the Oslo accords? The recognized the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people. No doubt israel is guilty on many many things....but not recognizing the Palestinians is not one of them.

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 4:35:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Personally, the US should pull out all together and let the ME take care of the ME. The situation would almost certainly get worse. About the only thing restraining the Isreali Likud government is the US. Ken is right. American aid to Israel gives you some leverage in the situation.

tazzygirl -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 5:17:21 PM)
And yet all you hear from the other side is how the US is keeping Israel going, and allowing them to attack Palestinians.

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 5:27:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And yet all you hear from the other side is how the US is keeping Israel going, and allowing them to attack Palestinians. I guess it depends who is/was your President at the time. Same with us and our Prime Minister. For instance, G W Bush decided not to negotiate with Arafat, while Clinton did. This is why all nations at some time or another support tyrants, it suits the political objectives.

kdsub -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 7:46:55 PM)
quote: He seems to see that negotiating with Abbas is the best way forward. Politesub what am I missing? What good does it do to negotiate with Abbas when Hamas does not recognize him as the leader of the governing body? If Israel could come to an agreement with Abbas it would solve nothing without Hamas. Do you want them to make separate agreements? Before this mess can be solved they, meaning the Palestinians, need to solve their own problems and present a united governing body so meaningful negotiations can begin. Israel has to know that whomever they make an agreement with speaks for all Palestinians…don’t you think this is essential? Butch

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 8:34:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: He seems to see that negotiating with Abbas is the best way forward. Politesub what am I missing? What good does it do to negotiate with Abbas when Hamas does not recognize him as the leader of the governing body? If Israel could come to an agreement with Abbas it would solve nothing without Hamas. Do you want them to make separate agreements? Before this mess can be solved they, meaning the Palestinians, need to solve their own problems and present a united governing body so meaningful negotiations can begin. Israel has to know that whomever they make an agreement with speaks for all Palestinians…don’t you think this is essential? Butch Making a deal with Abbas would include the majority of Palestinians as the PA is still in control of the West Bank and that is where the bulk of the Palestinians live. Hamas, as rulers of Gaza, are legally rebels against their legal government. They could negotiate a surrender to the PA or wait for the PA and Israel to come in and put down the rebellion by force.

kdsub -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/1/2012 8:42:38 PM)
quote: They could negotiate a surrender to the PA or wait for the PA and Israel to come in and put down the rebellion by force. I don't believe this could happen...at least the PA and Israel working together to defeat Hamas. In my opinion Palestinians would not stand for it even if they were opposed to Hamas. Butch

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 12:32:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sensualslut4u " when Israeli government after Israeli government have claimed there is no such thing as a Palestian people" interesting fabrication. If the stance of successive Israeli governments was that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, who are they negotiating with....when negotiations are on? Have you ever read the Oslo accords? The recognized the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people. No doubt israel is guilty on many many things....but not recognizing the Palestinians is not one of them. The Palestinians had never recognised Israel before the PLO did so who were the Palestinians negotiating with before they recognised Israel? Think.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 12:36:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Personally, the US should pull out all together and let the ME take care of the ME. Israel is the USA's only reliable ally in the ME, which is the reason the US backs Israel 100% against the Palestinians and only sees peace as making its ally's situation better, not that peace is something worth having in itself. Well, that is the only conclusion one can come to from watching the ME.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 12:44:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen We talk to both sides. We do not mindlessly support one side over the other. We do not pretend that Israel has none of the rights every other nation has. Our efforts are the reason Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. Our efforts led to Oslo and Dayton which built a roadmap to a Palestinian state. We support both sides financially. Show me another nation that has come anywhere near being that even handed. I suspect only an American (and Israelis) could see American participation in the middle east as even handed. You only support both sides when the Palestinian puppets dance to an American tune while the US continues to bankroll Israel regardless of its flouting of human rights and international law. You keep other nations out of the middle east unless they whistle Dixie. So you can not deal with the facts so you try to handwave them away. Does it not bother you to be acting like an American conservative? You aren't dealing with facts, you are dealing with a subjective interpretation of how you see your government behaving in the ME, resorting to rationlisations when the facts are inconvenient. The US doesn't bankroll both sides. It bankrolls Israel and throws a little aid at the Palestinians if they do what the USA and Israel want then to do. If not, they stop paying aid and persuade their European lapdogs to do the same, while no matter what crimes Israel commits, the US carries on bank rolling them. As for the Oslo road map. You do nothing to keep Israel on it and since it collapsed because of Israel, the US is pretty quiet about it. Though if the Palestinians do not comply, they are labeled terrorists and sanctioned. The USA has never ever ever sanctioned Israel for its crimes, undermining agreements and for flouting international law. You are the American conservative, you opinions shadow Israel's spokesman. You can't get more conservative and ossified and self deceiving than that.

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 4:59:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: He seems to see that negotiating with Abbas is the best way forward. Politesub what am I missing? What good does it do to negotiate with Abbas when Hamas does not recognize him as the leader of the governing body? If Israel could come to an agreement with Abbas it would solve nothing without Hamas. Do you want them to make separate agreements? Before this mess can be solved they, meaning the Palestinians, need to solve their own problems and present a united governing body so meaningful negotiations can begin. Israel has to know that whomever they make an agreement with speaks for all Palestinians…don’t you think this is essential? Butch Simple Butch, because if no one is seen to be negotiating (and in good faith) the terrorists are the only option. The British didnt negotiate with all the Catholics in Northern Ireland. Some dissented from the very idea and split from the IRA. Yet the violence has decreased to such an extent some Catholics in Northern Ireland have said they wish to remain under British Rule, probably as Britian is more financially viable than the south. Ken, Abbas isnt the elected spokesman for the Palestinian Authority, his term run out in 2009 and he has refused to hold an election. Even in 2006 Hamas won the overall vote. That said, I think he makes a better spokesman for the Palestinians overall, although he needs to do more towards intergrating all Palestinians and not just work for Fatah. How you can say Hamas isnt the legal authority is beyond me, the elected Palestinian Council recognise Hamas as having won the election.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 7:03:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen We talk to both sides. We do not mindlessly support one side over the other. We do not pretend that Israel has none of the rights every other nation has. Our efforts are the reason Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. Our efforts led to Oslo and Dayton which built a roadmap to a Palestinian state. We support both sides financially. Show me another nation that has come anywhere near being that even handed. I suspect only an American (and Israelis) could see American participation in the middle east as even handed. You only support both sides when the Palestinian puppets dance to an American tune while the US continues to bankroll Israel regardless of its flouting of human rights and international law. You keep other nations out of the middle east unless they whistle Dixie. So you can not deal with the facts so you try to handwave them away. Does it not bother you to be acting like an American conservative? You aren't dealing with facts, you are dealing with a subjective interpretation of how you see your government behaving in the ME, resorting to rationlisations when the facts are inconvenient. The US doesn't bankroll both sides. It bankrolls Israel and throws a little aid at the Palestinians if they do what the USA and Israel want then to do. If not, they stop paying aid and persuade their European lapdogs to do the same, while no matter what crimes Israel commits, the US carries on bank rolling them. As for the Oslo road map. You do nothing to keep Israel on it and since it collapsed because of Israel, the US is pretty quiet about it. Though if the Palestinians do not comply, they are labeled terrorists and sanctioned. The USA has never ever ever sanctioned Israel for its crimes, undermining agreements and for flouting international law. You are the American conservative, you opinions shadow Israel's spokesman. You can't get more conservative and ossified and self deceiving than that. I presented facts and you simply handwaved them away. You now try to rationalize your dismissal of reality but that still doesn't change the facts. The US does bankrol both sides. When the PA acts badly the money is held up but the money does get there. Our Congress is very aware that the PA is the former PLO and that their modus operandi was blowing up pizza parlors. We kept Israel on Oslo long after the PA had violated the deal, the PA has never fulfilled any of their responsibilities under Oslo. Why would anyone keep obeying an agreement the other side never obeyed? Now a simple thing, deal with the facts presented not the fantasy you have buily up in your head.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 7:10:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Ken, Abbas isnt the elected spokesman for the Palestinian Authority, his term run out in 2009 and he has refused to hold an election. Even in 2006 Hamas won the overall vote. That said, I think he makes a better spokesman for the Palestinians overall, although he needs to do more towards intergrating all Palestinians and not just work for Fatah. How you can say Hamas isnt the legal authority is beyond me, the elected Palestinian Council recognise Hamas as having won the election. Never said he was. He is the head of the PA though. This is a really simple idea, Hamas that won an election for the PA parliament is a political party. If the Torries won a British parliamentary election but a coalition of other parties formed the majority and chose the PM what would you consider a group of Torries who violently took over Cornwall and expelled all elements of the British government?

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 4:37:12 PM)
You analogy is ludicrous for one reason. It is based on nonsense. Hamas won the Election, Israel The US, UK and others refused to recognise them. Abbas then formed a coalition. It doesnt alter the fact Hamas won fairly, watched by EU observers.

kdsub -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/2/2012 6:21:44 PM)
quote: Simple Butch, because if no one is seen to be negotiating (and in good faith) the terrorists are the only option I do understand what you are trying to say but in practicality it is unworkable. It is not Israel's fault that the two main factions can't get together for their own good. But if i were Israel I would be saying loud and clear, for the world to hear, that if only the Palestinians would present a united front they are ready to negotiate today...If nothing else it would be a good propaganda ploy and would put the onus on Palestine for peace. Butch

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 2:21:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I presented facts and you simply handwaved them away. You now try to rationalize your dismissal of reality but that still doesn't change the facts. The US does bankrol both sides. When the PA acts badly the money is held up but the money does get there. Our Congress is very aware that the PA is the former PLO and that their modus operandi was blowing up pizza parlors. We kept Israel on Oslo long after the PA had violated the deal, the PA has never fulfilled any of their responsibilities under Oslo. Why would anyone keep obeying an agreement the other side never obeyed? Now a simple thing, deal with the facts presented not the fantasy you have buily up in your head. You didn't present any facts, you presented opinion. eg. If the USA was bankrolling both sides, where are the Palestinian F16s? Were are the Palestinina armalites? Where are the Palestinian missiles? Why is Gaza blockaded and the diet of its population calorie restricted by the Israelis. Surely if they were bankrolled by the US, they would be able to feed themselves? What we actually find is a Gaza that is a prison camp and a west bank that is an open prison along the lines of old Indian reservations in the US. I think you will find it was Israeli tanks, bulldozers and assassination squads that broke the Oslo accord. Now you might claim like Bush that the the PA was responsible but it is just a convenient assertion without any evidence other than Israeli propganda to back it up. You just have to read UN reports, Human Rights Watch reports and any other report you care to mention. Maybe Fox News would back up your view but since when has Fox News actually reported news as opposed to fiction?

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 2:53:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Making a deal with Abbas would include the majority of Palestinians as the PA is still in control of the West Bank and that is where the bulk of the Palestinians live. Hamas, as rulers of Gaza, are legally rebels against their legal government. They could negotiate a surrender to the PA or wait for the PA and Israel to come in and put down the rebellion by force. I'm glad you say the PA is still in control of the west bank but they have no more legitimacy than Hamas, in fact they have less legitimacy because they are a puppet regime, Hamas being the last party to win internationally observed free and fair elections, even if Israel and the USA found such democracy too inconvenient to contemplate. As for controling the bulk of population, an estinmated 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza and an estimated 2.5 million Palestinians live in the West Bank. ie. the Palestinians have been split down the middle which makes peace more difficult and I suspect Israel and the US happy.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 3:03:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I presented facts and you simply handwaved them away. You now try to rationalize your dismissal of reality but that still doesn't change the facts. The US does bankrol both sides. When the PA acts badly the money is held up but the money does get there. Our Congress is very aware that the PA is the former PLO and that their modus operandi was blowing up pizza parlors. We kept Israel on Oslo long after the PA had violated the deal, the PA has never fulfilled any of their responsibilities under Oslo. Why would anyone keep obeying an agreement the other side never obeyed? Now a simple thing, deal with the facts presented not the fantasy you have buily up in your head. You didn't present any facts, you presented opinion. eg. If the USA was bankrolling both sides, where are the Palestinian F16s? Were are the Palestinina armalites? Where are the Palestinian missiles? Oslo does not allow the PA to have military forces or military weapons. Why would the US violate OISLO? quote: Why is Gaza blockaded and the diet of its population calorie restricted by the Israelis. Surely if they were bankrolled by the US, they would be able to feed themselves? What we actually find is a Gaza that is a prison camp and a west bank that is an open prison along the lines of old Indian reservations in the US. The US bankrolls the PA. Hamas violently expelled the PA from Gaza. Hamas is not party to any agreement with Israel so Israel treats Gaza as a territory in a state of rebellion, which is exactly what it is. quote: I think you will find it was Israeli tanks, bulldozers and assassination squads that broke the Oslo accord. Now you might claim like Bush that the the PA was responsible but it is just a convenient assertion without any evidence other than Israeli propganda to back it up. I think you will find if you actually check it out that the PA violated Oslo from the very first day. Israel kept right on with their responibilities, holding PA elections, turning West Bank towns and eventually all of Gaza but they didn't get teh 2 things that were supposed to be done by the PLO before they got anything, changing the PLO charter to recognize Israel and a cessation of PLO sponsored attacks on Israeli civilians.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 3:06:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You analogy is ludicrous for one reason. It is based on nonsense. Hamas won the Election, Israel The US, UK and others refused to recognise them. Abbas then formed a coalition. It doesnt alter the fact Hamas won fairly, watched by EU observers. Hamas won the parliamentary elections but the entity that has the agreements with Israel is the PA. Hamas acting outside the PA has no standing what so ever. This is exactly and legally a political party rebelling against the government and taking control of territory illegally. Contact Israel and you will find that is the basis for the Gaza embargo.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 5:21:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Oslo does not allow the PA to have military forces or military weapons. Why would the US violate OISLO? It does allow PA forces weapons to use on its own people and the majority of US aid goes to the PA security apparatus to suppress its own people. The US bandies about huge sums but most of this never arrives or is suspended or sanctioned for this that or the other. Meanwhile the US has given Israel $30 billion in military aid in the last ten years. That is not including economic aid and private American aid. Israel has a larger military than UK, France and Germany. Israel can't afford that without being bankrolled. So don't give me the USA is an honest broker in this conflict. I am just illustrating there is no even handedness in the US position which you try to imply. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The US bankrolls the PA. Hamas violently expelled the PA from Gaza. Hamas is not party to any agreement with Israel so Israel treats Gaza as a territory in a state of rebellion, which is exactly what it is. See above. The PA was put forward as an alternative to Hamas by the USA and Israel after they rejected an internationally validated fair and free election. However you wish to put it, the reason for the civil war was the USA's and Israel's rejection of Palestinina democracy. French President predicted the result of the US and Israeli decision to reject democracy. BTW He also correctly predicted the chaos in Iraq. The chesse eating surrender monkey was right. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I think you will find if you actually check it out that the PA violated Oslo from the very first day. Israel kept right on with their responibilities, holding PA elections, turning West Bank towns and eventually all of Gaza but they didn't get teh 2 things that were supposed to be done by the PLO before they got anything, changing the PLO charter to recognize Israel and a cessation of PLO sponsored attacks on Israeli civilians. The PLO recognized Israel in 1993. Without it, there would be no Oslo accord. Israel never withdrew its military from the areas of Gaza and the West Bank it had agreed to in the Oslo accord. That point alone means that Israel didn't comply with Oslo at all. The PA can no more control every rogue Palestininian anymore than the Israelis can control every rogue Israeli settler who murders a Palestinian. The reason Hamas gained power was because Israel refused to comply with the Oslo accord and Palestinians just came to see it as another western ploy to delay and eventually dismiss the idea of a Palestinina state.

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