RE: Palestine gets UN observer status.

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (Full Version)

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leonine -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 7:09:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen These new weapons could reach the major Israeili population centers and can carry chemical weapons. What choice, exactly, did Israel have in regards to those weapons? Oh, right, they might have WMDs! Well, of course, that settles it, nothing to do but start a pre-emptive war.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 12:38:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Oslo does not allow the PA to have military forces or military weapons. Why would the US violate OISLO? It does allow PA forces weapons to use on its own people and the majority of US aid goes to the PA security apparatus to suppress its own people. And the PA police forces are armed with weapons paid for by the USA. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The US bankrolls the PA. Hamas violently expelled the PA from Gaza. Hamas is not party to any agreement with Israel so Israel treats Gaza as a territory in a state of rebellion, which is exactly what it is. See above. The PA was put forward as an alternative to Hamas by the USA and Israel after they rejected an internationally validated fair and free election. However you wish to put it, the reason for the civil war was the USA's and Israel's rejection of Palestinina democracy. French President predicted the result of the US and Israeli decision to reject democracy. BTW He also correctly predicted the chaos in Iraq. The chesse eating surrender monkey was right. The reason for the civil war was Fatah rewriting the rules, during a lame duck parliamentary session, to concentrate power in Abbas' hands after Hamas won the parliamentary election. Hamas thought they were getting control of everything and instead got very little. However it was done inside the rules the PA operates under. They certainly had options besides artmed rebellion. All that aside the question I answered was about why doesn't the US send money into Gaza which is because the US gives the PA money not rebel terrorist organizations. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I think you will find if you actually check it out that the PA violated Oslo from the very first day. Israel kept right on with their responibilities, holding PA elections, turning West Bank towns and eventually all of Gaza but they didn't get teh 2 things that were supposed to be done by the PLO before they got anything, changing the PLO charter to recognize Israel and a cessation of PLO sponsored attacks on Israeli civilians. The PLO recognized Israel in 1993. Without it, there would be no Oslo accord. incorrect. The PLO charter remains unamended to this day. quote: Israel never withdrew its military from the areas of Gaza and the West Bank it had agreed to in the Oslo accord. That point alone means that Israel didn't comply with Oslo at all. They did withdraw entirely from Gaza and most of the Arab communities of the West Bank despite the utter lack of reciprocation by the PA. quote: The PA can no more control every rogue Palestininian anymore than the Israelis can control every rogue Israeli settler who murders a Palestinian. The Pa can control Fatah and many of the attacks came from Fatah. quote: The reason Hamas gained power was because Israel refused to comply with the Oslo accord and Palestinians just came to see it as another western ploy to delay and eventually dismiss the idea of a Palestinina state. Actually Hamas gained power because the PLO had fed the Palestinain people a steady diet of antisemitic hate for decades and promised that they would take every inch of Israel for themselves. When they were seen as moderating on that point the election went against them. Hamas OTOH continues to call for not only driving every Jew out of Israel but for the killing of all Jews everywhere.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 2:17:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Actually Hamas gained power because the PLO had fed the Palestinain people a steady diet of antisemitic hate for decades and promised that they would take every inch of Israel for themselves. When they were seen as moderating on that point the election went against them. Hamas OTOH continues to call for not only driving every Jew out of Israel but for the killing of all Jews everywhere. You just repeat Israeli spokesman and Fox News and are completely wrong on just about every count because you believe in the EVIL HAMAS BOGEYMAN no matter what. The anti-semitic claimis bullshit, this conflict is about land and national identity, not race. Hamas hates the Israelis because of what the Israelis have done to them and feel they have stole Palestinian land, continue to steal it and have the Israeli jackboot on their throat, this conflict has nothing to do with race. I notice you don't accuse the Israelis of being racist for hating and treating the Palestinians as untermensch in a ghetto. How about this for racism. “There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.” Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001 The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”…. *Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel, August 28,2000. Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000* ” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” *Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts,” New Statesman, 25 June 1982.* “The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashedagainst the boulders and walls.” *Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli Prime Minister, in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988* “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about itwill be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” *Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.* “How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” *Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister, March 8, 1969.* The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” *Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.* “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” *David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister), quoted by Nahum Goldmann in “Le Paraddoxe Juif” (”The Jewish Paradox”), pp121.* “We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to livehere as slaves.” *Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.* “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and theAmericans know it.” Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI’s cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.) Just a few racist comments, there are many more which show if you want to bring racism into it, the Israelis as just as racist as the Palestinians and these sort of quotes can be traced back as far as the end of the 19th century. A quote from Paul Craig Roberts which could be refering to you. “The reason that Israel has been able to appropriate Palestine unto itself with American aid and support is that Israel controls the explanation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. At least 90% of Americans, if they know anything at all of the issue, know only the Israeli propaganda line. Israel has been able to control the explanation, because the powerful Israel Lobby brands every critic of Israeli policy as an anti-semite who favors a second holocaust of the Jews.” Just a few, there are many many more but let me finish with a quote from Nelson Mandela *“The so-called ‘Palestinian autonomous areas’ are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.”*

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 2:42:45 PM)
Some of those staements were certainly racist but they do not appear to be the official policy of any group. These however are: http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm article 22 quote: For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there. You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. "So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64). The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation. "O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118). It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah's words "if ye understand." article 32 quote: World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle. The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one's country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for "the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like." The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "..and we have put enmity and hatred between them, until the day of resurrection. So often as they shall kindle a fire of war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64). This last july Hamas official spokesman Fawzi Barhoum denied the Holocaust http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19091147

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 3:06:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Some of those staements were certainly racist but they do not appear to be the official policy of any group. Now you have left me speechless. The world has been witnessing official Israeli policy for the last 50 years. Actions speak louder than words and if such prominent Israeli politicians are saying such things in public, we all know they are saying worse in private. Treating the Palestinians as an untermensch is out in the open for ALL to see, even Americans if they look. I think Mandela knows apartheid when he sees it. BTW I don't deny and have never denied the Palestinians hate Israelis, it is a rational response to how they are treated by the Israelis.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 3:32:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Some of those staements were certainly racist but they do not appear to be the official policy of any group. Now you have left me speechless. The world has been witnessing official Israeli policy for the last 50 years. Actions speak louder than words and if such prominent Israeli politicians are saying such things in public, we all know they are saying worse in private. Treating the Palestinians as an untermensch is out in the open for ALL to see, even Americans if they look. I think Mandela knows apartheid when he sees it. BTW I don't deny and have never denied the Palestinians hate Israelis, it is a rational response to how they are treated by the Israelis. Yes actions speak louder than words. If Israel had wanted to get rid of every Palestinian in the territories they have had 45 years to do the deed and no one could have stopped them. They have not. Considering the various and sundry outrageous provocations by the Palestinians in that time, Munich, Entebbe etc., it is shocking that Israel has been as gentle and restrained as they have been.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 4:35:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Yes actions speak louder than words. If Israel had wanted to get rid of every Palestinian in the territories they have had 45 years to do the deed and no one could have stopped them. They have not. Considering the various and sundry outrageous provocations by the Palestinians in that time, Munich, Entebbe etc., it is shocking that Israel has been as gentle and restrained as they have been. You seriously do willfully have your head in the sand. There are enough statements by Israeli politicians stating their aim, that the Palestinians (Arabs) would leave or come begging on their knees. In fact such statements go back to the late 19th century with the declared aims of the zionists. The idea of a slow and relentless ethnic cleansing is a century old. Even a Israeli report into the war of 1948 said that while ethnic cleansing was not the official policy, 70% of the muslim and Christian Arab civilians that left were ethnically cleansed by official or unoffical fighters. Still, they were not allowed to return. Munich for all its terror put the Palestinian plight on the international map, before that, the Palestinians were ignored and left to rot or be murdered by the IDF or their proxies. No one counted the murdered Palestinians before Munich. You are happily blind to what is happening in the Israeli Palestinian conflict and totally refuse to see or accept the Palestinian expulsions, Palestinian evictions, the stealing of Palestinian land and the Israeli system of apartheid.

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 4:37:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You analogy is ludicrous for one reason. It is based on nonsense. Hamas won the Election, Israel The US, UK and others refused to recognise them. Abbas then formed a coalition. It doesnt alter the fact Hamas won fairly, watched by EU observers. Hamas won the parliamentary elections but the entity that has the agreements with Israel is the PA. Hamas acting outside the PA has no standing what so ever. This is exactly and legally a political party rebelling against the government and taking control of territory illegally. Contact Israel and you will find that is the basis for the Gaza embargo. Well excuse me thinking those that actually won the election are the legal entity. I dont know how you can suggest otherwise but still. How can Gaza be a state in rebellion when it isnt part of Israel, that makes no sense.

jlf1961 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 6:16:55 PM)
I think everyone is missing the bigger problem. When we support Israel, we become targets for terrorist attacks. When we support the Palestinians, Israel stops giving us Intel about the Terrorists that are planning to attack us. I have a solution. We carpet bomb the entire middle east, put one bomb in every square foot of the region. Then we tell them to start getting along or we are gonna get mean.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 8:11:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You analogy is ludicrous for one reason. It is based on nonsense. Hamas won the Election, Israel The US, UK and others refused to recognise them. Abbas then formed a coalition. It doesnt alter the fact Hamas won fairly, watched by EU observers. Hamas won the parliamentary elections but the entity that has the agreements with Israel is the PA. Hamas acting outside the PA has no standing what so ever. This is exactly and legally a political party rebelling against the government and taking control of territory illegally. Contact Israel and you will find that is the basis for the Gaza embargo. Well excuse me thinking those that actually won the election are the legal entity. I dont know how you can suggest otherwise but still. How can Gaza be a state in rebellion when it isnt part of Israel, that makes no sense. Is your government Labour or Tory or is it independent of the political parties? Gaza is a state of rebellion from the PA which is the recognized government of both the West Bank and Gaza.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 8:12:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Yes actions speak louder than words. If Israel had wanted to get rid of every Palestinian in the territories they have had 45 years to do the deed and no one could have stopped them. They have not. Considering the various and sundry outrageous provocations by the Palestinians in that time, Munich, Entebbe etc., it is shocking that Israel has been as gentle and restrained as they have been. You seriously do willfully have your head in the sand. There are enough statements by Israeli politicians stating their aim, that the Palestinians (Arabs) would leave or come begging on their knees. In fact such statements go back to the late 19th century with the declared aims of the zionists. The idea of a slow and relentless ethnic cleansing is a century old. Even a Israeli report into the war of 1948 said that while ethnic cleansing was not the official policy, 70% of the muslim and Christian Arab civilians that left were ethnically cleansed by official or unoffical fighters. Still, they were not allowed to return. Munich for all its terror put the Palestinian plight on the international map, before that, the Palestinians were ignored and left to rot or be murdered by the IDF or their proxies. No one counted the murdered Palestinians before Munich. You are happily blind to what is happening in the Israeli Palestinian conflict and totally refuse to see or accept the Palestinian expulsions, Palestinian evictions, the stealing of Palestinian land and the Israeli system of apartheid. You just tried to justify the murder of athletes at the Olympics. You are beyond the pale. This debate is over.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 10:25:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Gaza is a state of rebellion from the PA which is the recognized government of both the West Bank and Gaza. Gaza is a ghetto within the power structure of the Israeli state just as the Warsaw ghetto was in the power structure of the NAZI occupation.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 10:28:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen You just tried to justify the murder of athletes at the Olympics. You are beyond the pale. This debate is over. And you have been justifying the murder of an entire nation. Shame on you.

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 10:44:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen You just tried to justify the murder of athletes at the Olympics. You are beyond the pale. This debate is over. I didn't try to justify it I merely pointed out before the Palestinians became terrorists (freedom fighters) they were quietly being cleansed and murdered by the Israeli state's terrorists. BTW The debate is over because it is impossible for you to justify your views that Israel is a blameless tolerant paradise infested with an untermensch virus, when you are faced with the facts.

jlf1961 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/3/2012 11:18:33 PM)
Before the independence of Ireland, the men and women fighting for independence from Great Britain were called terrorists. Now those fighting for the reunification of Northern Ireland and Ireland are called terrorists. When Native Americans occupied Alcatraz and Wounded Knee, they were called militant, subversive and terrorists. When the colonists were fighting against the British for independence they were called traitors and worse. Fighting for a homeland was perfectly okay for the Jews in the first half of the twentieth century in the British mandate of Palestine were called terrorists. Now, Palestinians fighting to establish a homeland in the same way the Jews did to establish Israel are called terrorists. In case you have not realized it, the term 'terrorist' is subjective. The Palestinians have the same rights to a homeland as the Jews did, and they have the right to use the same tactics that the Jews fighting for the establishment of Israel used.

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/4/2012 2:37:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Well excuse me thinking those that actually won the election are the legal entity. I dont know how you can suggest otherwise but still. How can Gaza be a state in rebellion when it isnt part of Israel, that makes no sense. Is your government Labour or Tory or is it independent of the political parties? Gaza is a state of rebellion from the PA which is the recognized government of both the West Bank and Gaza. How many more times...... Hamas, not Fatah, won the election. That makes them the legitimate authority. The fact Israel deals with Fatah doesnt alter that.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/4/2012 6:45:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Well excuse me thinking those that actually won the election are the legal entity. I dont know how you can suggest otherwise but still. How can Gaza be a state in rebellion when it isnt part of Israel, that makes no sense. Is your government Labour or Tory or is it independent of the political parties? Gaza is a state of rebellion from the PA which is the recognized government of both the West Bank and Gaza. How many more times...... Hamas, not Fatah, won the election. That makes them the legitimate authority. The fact Israel deals with Fatah doesnt alter that. In a system where the President is elected seperate from the parliament if the parliament is one party and the president is from another does the party in the majority in the parliament have the right to use armed violence to take over a county from the central government?

meatcleaver -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/4/2012 7:27:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen In a system where the President is elected seperate from the parliament if the parliament is one party and the president is from another does the party in the majority in the parliament have the right to use armed violence to take over a county from the central government? *“The so-called ‘Palestinian autonomous areas’ are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.”* NELSON MANDELA Mandela sums up the status of Gaza and the west bank rather well. They aren't sovereign states with a legitimate government but part of the Israeli state's power structure. It is quite legitimate for any people to fight their brutal oppressors, including the palestinians..

Politesub53 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/4/2012 10:43:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen In a system where the President is elected seperate from the parliament if the parliament is one party and the president is from another does the party in the majority in the parliament have the right to use armed violence to take over a county from the central government? Show me anything the backs up your assertion and I will gladly shut up. Abbas has abused his office to remain in power. Please note I have already said he is the right man for the job, that doesnt make him the legitimate one though. His term as president expired in 2009 and as such the current speaker should be the interim president.....Not Abbas.

jlf1961 -> RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. (12/4/2012 10:48:15 AM)
Lets face some facts here. Israel is going to keep building settlements in the occupied areas, unless something is done to stop them. The United States and other western countries scream in protest and do nothing. The Jews of Palestine used terrorist tactics against the British when the British controlled the area, something people have forgotten. It is time for the rest of the world to hold Israel accountable and push the division of the area and the creation of a homeland for the Palestinians independent of Israel.

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