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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:00:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And yet any time, like this time, you are in a debate about welfare, your fall back position is that people are dependent, defrauding the system, lying to get benefits.. ect ect ect. You constantly hold up California as the example for the whole country. Hell, I dont know what you people are doing out there. I do know what happens within my own state. But any time someone comes along to defend those who truly need those benefits, you either get snarky (as you have done in this thread), you get beligerent (as you have done in this thread) or you attack (as you have done in this thread).

All of this points, at least for me, to your lack of desire to help people who would otherwise be destitute without those benefits because it doesnt fit into your nice little box of "abject poverty".

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:01:14 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		It surely can be situational. When Himself and I first got together (over 14 years ago), the first few months we were poor.

As in having to juggle money to eat and do the laundry. No health care, forget a car. We dug our heels in, knowing it was a matter of time before the situation would improve. It was a long few months and not ones I wish to repeat. But neither of us were ever defeated, or even considered going to social services, although we certainly qualified.

We may have been situationally poor, but we did not have the poverty mindset, which means we maintained a positive attitude and a sense of motivation.

And in my mind, a positive attitude and sense of motivation is crucial to being a viable citizen.

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:02:12 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		So because someone goes on welfare to get out of a situation they have the "mindset"?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:03:21 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

The OP explains quite well why the Germanic and Scandinavian countries are doing as well as they are, and why the US is on a downslide.

If the government and the economy are considered to be in service to and for benefit of society, the results generally show that to be true.

If the government and the economy are considered to be in service to and for benefit of those who best take advantage of the situation, then the results show that to be true, also.




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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:03:36 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		FR

Is it poverty when Dominos delivers, instead of Round Table?

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:04:34 PM   
absolutchocolat


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quote:

"Dignity," should be part of the measure, Absolutchocolat? Who decides what that is? Seems mighty subjective, to me.


heretic, your definition of poverty is pretty subjective as well. not all poverty looks like something out of a movie -- it's different for everyone. having traveled a bit in my lifetime, poverty in one part of a country (or the world) never looks the same. i've seen poverty in mali and poverty in oakland; oakland poverty might look "better", but lack of skills, education and resources to sustain yourself and your loved ones definitely chips away at your dignity. feel free to disagree, but i'm thinking about humans, and not numbers.

jeff, i agree with you 100% about access to education. our entitlement system definitely needs some tweaking, but it also depends on which entitlements we're talking about. are we talking just entitlements in the form of public assistance, or are we including tax credits and deductions as well? we can't favor some over others.

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:05:02 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So because someone goes on welfare to get out of a situation they have the "mindset"?



Nope. The mindset comes into play when they decide the aid is plenty good enough to get comfy.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:06:07 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So because someone goes on welfare to get out of a situation they have the "mindset"?

Huh what? I didn't hear her say that AT ALL. What I heard was a comment I agree with and in fact in my own ramblings mentioned when I said, "A lifestyle sufficient to prevent them from giving up hope". I completely agree that part of the poverty problem is externally enforced and another part comes from inside. Both need to be tackled unless we wish to go the other direction towards poverty, suffering and violence.


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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:08:06 PM   
absolutchocolat


Posts: 1392
Status: offline 		have you been on public assistance lately? in CA, it's $200 a month for food stamps, $234 for cash aid for a single person, and those are maximum amounts. if you're not working or receiving any other aid. tell me where in this state you can live for a month, eat every single day, afford the basics and get "comfortable."

don't worry, i'll wait.

ETA: You can't get cash aid (General assistance) for more than three months in one calendar year, and you can only get food stamps for two years at a time, or five years total in your lifetime. unless you have children, of course.

< Message edited by absolutchocolat -- 11/30/2012 10:11:55 PM >

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:09:13 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I asked because I know of numerous women who have gone on welfare to get out of situational poverty.

quote:

As in having to juggle money to eat and do the laundry. No health care, forget a car. We dug our heels in, knowing it was a matter of time before the situation would improve. It was a long few months and not ones I wish to repeat. But neither of us were ever defeated, or even considered going to social services, although we certainly qualified.


Situational poverty doesnt always mean temporary, or just a few months, or something you can juggle.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:09:32 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		If you are going to have a serious conversation about welfare and social services benefits in the US, I think you have to be honest and admit there *are* huge numbers of people who defraud the system.

Anyone and everyone applying for services is treated like a criminal with character flaws -- and that doesn't help those poor people who really need the services.

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:11:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I have admitted there are some who do defraud the system. To say there are huge amounts is something I dont agree with.

quote:

Anyone and everyone applying for services is treated like a criminal with character flaws -- and that doesn't help those poor people who really need the services.


I certainly was.... until I signed a waiver stating I would repay medical costs out of the settlement I am hoping to get due to my accident.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:12:19 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: absolutchocolat

have you been on public assistance lately?



Nope. I was amazed to discover I qualified for $111 a month in food stamps when I was starving in college 20 years ago, but when I was last well within the criteria (call it 10 years ago), I stayed the hell off the programs because I had no interest in complying with the requirements.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to absolutchocolat)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:13:08 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		PA stopped all cash aid to those who were on medical disabilities and on welfare. So I dont see how anyone in PA is getting all comfy cozy on welfare.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to absolutchocolat)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:14:03 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Anyone and everyone applying for services is treated like a criminal with character flaws -- and that doesn't help those poor people who really need the services.



Absolutely correct, and that's one of the things in the system that needs correction

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:14:32 PM   
dreamysubmale


Posts: 204
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		Our government has a skewed sense of what poverty is. In fact they deny that poverty even exists in good ol New Zealand.

I volunteer for a charity organization (one of the few that caters for the poor) that provides free school lunches, to kids from low decile schools (schools in low socioeconomic areas) that arrive in school hungry, have worn out shoes and no raincoats. For most of these kids, it might be their only meal they will have for the day.

Just like Heretic mentioned earlier, the parents of these children, also live in big houses, have a car and a colour television. But if you look closely, the houses are overcrowded, damp, moldy and cold because the parents can’t afford to heat them. The kids and adults living under these crowded conditions contract skin infections, respiratory and other preventable diseases Rheumatic fever is rampant among the kids. Tuberculosis and meningococcal disease is of epidemic proportions.

We used to think of New Zealand as a great place to bring up kids, but not anymore. 150 babies die each year that probably would be alive if they were born in Sweden, Japan or even in a country like Romania or the Czech Republic.



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Everywhere man blames nature and fate, yet his fate is mostly but the echo of his character and passions, his mistakes and weaknesses... Democritus

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:14:53 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		If you were/are so disabled that it did not enter into your mind to apply for aid for over ten years, then you cannot qualify for SS disability, because you haven't worked in the last ten years. The significantly lesser benefit of SSI is all there is left. This could only happen if family has supported, thereby saving the govenment a ton of money in the interim. But of course aid to blind people, from family or government, is anathema to Heretic's 'land of opportunity!' form of blindness.

If you were on food stamps before, that goes away, or at least reduced to insignificance, once any form of SSS, SSD or SSI comes into play.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/30/2012 10:23:02 PM >

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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:23:26 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I never said people who need to should not go on welfare. People who need it should be given benefits so they can live with dignity and not be treated like beggars or criminals. But they should also be given tools to improve their situation.

And that's where this country fails. Education is a business. Health care is a business. There are no services in place to keep people from becoming institutionally poor.

If you are going to have this conversation, you must acknowledge the many people who have been beaten down by the system to the point they have zero motivation to do better. Do I think they are living a comfy life? Hell no.

But many many people want to blame the people and not the system. And it's our system that has created the mindset and institutionalization of poverty.

That's what happens when you treat poverty as a character flaw.







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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:27:51 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I cant tell you the problems I went through to get my own degree while on welfare. Afterwards, I started helping many other women go through the same process. Being told by the colleges that any federal aid they received would decrease their state aid, and having to argue that fact. This was in the earlu 90's. All these women wanted was a shot at a better life for them and their children. And 90% of those who made the attempt succeeded. Yet they faced the looks at check out lines. The criticism to get off their lazy asses and make a better life for themselves. The comments from both friends and family they they should get a man to provide for them instead of the state.

Most graduated within a year or two, depending on the program, with many of them obtaining a nursing degree.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/30/2012 10:30:13 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:32:32 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

It surely can be situational. When Himself and I first got together (over 14 years ago), the first few months we were poor.

As in having to juggle money to eat and do the laundry. No health care, forget a car. We dug our heels in, knowing it was a matter of time before the situation would improve. It was a long few months and not ones I wish to repeat. But neither of us were ever defeated, or even considered going to social services, although we certainly qualified.

We may have been situationally poor, but we did not have the poverty mindset, which means we maintained a positive attitude and a sense of motivation.

And in my mind, a positive attitude and sense of motivation is crucial to being a viable citizen.


And that's why I think it's wrong to equate poverty with a mindset.

You were in poverty back then.

Now (roughly in order of importance) your combined strength of character, hard work, natural character traits, and perhaps even a bit of luck got you out of it, but at that time you were in poverty.

That said, while I disagree strongly with the idea that "Poverty = Mindset", I do think that there is a mindset that keeps some people in poverty - I just think it's unfair to take a state of living - "in poverty" - and conflate it with a state of mind.


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