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RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:32:55 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Most graduated within a year with many of them obtaining a nursing degree.

Which will qualify them to empty the Obama Phone lady's bedpan. No nursing certificate less than RN is worth squat anymore.

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Post #: 61

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:35:08 PM

tazzygirl

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Check the edit. And remember, that was in the 90's. Many programs also have a fast track for LPN's to get their RN degrees later.

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Post #: 62

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:35:30 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You are aware Edwynn, that US poverty calculations don't include the receipt of benefits such as food stamps, or subsidized housing, right?

You might do best to run like hell from this thread, kiddo, because I damn well intend to carry on, at least until the good bourbon seriously kicks in, and you ain't equipped for that.

Well then, by that calculation, people on food stamps or SSI make zero income, if you insist.

FYI, the max benefit for all the disabled who are on SSI is $2,789 below poverty level.

Just trying to cheer you up here, brighten your day, etc.

I saved this last one for when the 'good' bourbon kicks in, whether you're ready for it or not.

And no, you are definitely not equipped for this discussion, no matter what you've been drinking or smoking.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/30/2012 10:40:30 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 63

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:41:51 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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That you and I and others were motivated to better ourselves is a great thing. A crucial question that needs to be asked is: How do you provide that kind of motivation to others who need it?

One thing I have learned in life is that you can't change people who don't wish to change. You can give them all the tools in the world, if they have been sufficiently beaten down, they can't pick them up.

And that's a real issue in a country that has generations of families on welfare. How do you get that child who has never known anyone who wasn't on welfare to be motivated to even finish high school? For what? You don't need a high school education to get pregnant and go on welfare. You don't need a high school education if the only job opportunity in your neighborhood is crack dealer.

All the tools in the world are not going to change the mind set of poverty until you alter what has created that mind set.

I don't have stats on how many defraud the system, but I would guess close to half of the people receiving some kind of benefit in the US either don't qualify or could do without it, if they knew how and/or were motivated to learn how. Sucking on the government tit is yet another symptom of lack of motivation to acquire the skills to support yourself on your own.

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Post #: 64

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:42:29 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Well then, by that calculation, people on food stamps or SSI make zero income, if you insist.

No, payments from Social Security are counted as income, but it is completely possible to receive food stamps, and wholly subsidized Section 8 housing in a nice middle-class neighborhood and be considered to have zero income.

(And as long as you lease the Escalade, it's not considered an asset.)

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 65

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:43:44 PM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
So I'd be thinking along the lines of:

"So what sort tools must I provide so that everyone can, if they so choose, better themselves (education, transportation, etc.)? In addition, what sort of lifestyle must I provide such that they do not abandon hope (roof, food, health care, modest entertainment, etc)."?

I just wish we would tackle these problems from a pragmatic standpoint rather than a moralistic one. I don't need to be a good person to understand that humans become dangerous when placed under substantial survival pressure. That, in my mind, is the basic equation. If I allow more widespread and more severe poverty I will also be increasing crime and civil unrest. In the extreme case I'd expect rebellion. So in a sense I am simply shifting costs for an aesthetic. I pay more for law enforcement and less for "entitlements" if I allow poverty to flourish. I also don't need to be a good person to understand that a person with access to education is likely to be more productive to society than one without. So providing effective education is more an investment in my mind than an entitlement.

This.

I support the ideas of a safety net and high quality universal healthcare and education (along with some other programs that some of the P&R regulars would describe as "commie claptrap") for deeply selfish reasons.

I believe that a society that does not provide equality of opportunity is less likely to thrive, and I would prefer my children to grow up in a thriving society.

So in my selfishness, I'm willing to pay a higher rate of tax - in fact "investment in the future" would be a better term for tax.

Now.. the way we pick our politicians means that that investment is not always a wise one... but that's another issue.

Poverty is commonly viewed in one of two ways (as one of the previous posters has mentioned) - relative poverty, and absolute poverty.

Relative poverty, by definition, relates more to income inequality - people in the bottom quartile of the income spectrum are - relatively speaking - poor. This one doesn't keep me awake at night.

Absolute poverty relates to the ability, economically, of a person to meet their (and their dependents') basic needs for shelter, warmth, and food. This one bothers me.

As someone whose politics would be regarded as "way to the left" by many, I'm not uncomfortable with some people being relatively poor and others being wealthy, but I am uncomfortable with a society that creates barriers that prevent (or make it harder) for people from a poor background to succeed.

In the UK, there are people that go without food. There are children whose only cooked meal each day is the free one provided at school by the state.

There are children for whom torn and dirty clothes are not a fashion statement.

That's unacceptable, not because I've got a bleeding heart, but because I - selfishly - don't want a potential Bill Gates or Steve Jobs to slip through the net.

Now... do I think that the welfare system should pay for beer and cigarettes - Fuck no. Do I think that a 60in flatscreen tv is a "basic human right" - fuck no.

But food, shelter, clothing, and access to opportunity - Hell yeah.

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Post #: 66

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:45:37 PM

tazzygirl

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What often happens, and what many people know that are on welfare, is that the minute your life starts to turn around, the help stops. Cold turkey. Imagine how worrying that is for a mom to suddenly realize that having that degree in hand, and then a job, means she will go months without insurance? That the time she graduates (speaking of the nurses I helped) schools are letting out and now she has to scramble to pay for day care so she can work. Couple that with the loss of SNAP and most other assistance, and she quickly starts to tally the amount of what she would make, against what it will cost her to make that.

I would prefer a system that works on a sliding scale.... as she makes money, the benefits decrease over a year.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 67

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:47:08 PM

Edwynn

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[/quote]

No, payments from Social Security are counted as income, but it is completely possible to receive food stamps, and wholly subsidized Section 8 housing in a nice middle-class neighborhood and be considered to have zero income.

(And as long as you lease the Escalade, it's not considered an asset.)
[/quote]

Wrong.

If you have any other government assistance, food stamps benefit is adjusted accordingly, down to being cut off completely, even if the other benefit situates the person well below poverty level.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/30/2012 10:49:48 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 68

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:51:59 PM

TheHeretic

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Not quite, "the minute," Tazzy, but transitional food stamps only last 5 months without accountabilty.

Of course, the earned income tax credit is going to come in, hot on the heels of some payroll deductions. It must be nice to get a "tax refund" that is far more than was paid in.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 69

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:54:24 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Not quite, "the minute," Tazzy, but transitional food stamps only last 5 months without accountabilty.

Of course, the earned income tax credit is going to come in, hot on the heels of some payroll deductions. It must be nice to get a "tax refund" that is far more than was paid in.

LOL No income means no earned income credit.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 70

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:54:32 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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Edwynn, I'm drinking the Woodford Reserve tonight (instead of the poverty level Jim Beam) but your attempt to move the bar around is still obvious and pathetic.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 71

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:56:00 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Not quite, "the minute," Tazzy, but transitional food stamps only last 5 months without accountabilty.

Of course, the earned income tax credit is going to come in, hot on the heels of some payroll deductions. It must be nice to get a "tax refund" that is far more than was paid in.

LOL No income means no earned income credit.

I'm mixing alcohol and meds Tazzy. What's your excuse?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 72

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 10:57:34 PM

tazzygirl

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I dont need one. When I started in nursing, I made 15 an hour, base pay. There was no earned income tax credit for me. Many of the other women saw a small one if they had more than one child, or none at all, because they suddenly made too much. Then again, I am speaking only about those women I worked with and myself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 73

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:02:33 PM

TheHeretic

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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Then again, I am speaking only about those women I worked with and myself.

I work with a much bigger sample than that, Tazzy.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 74

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:04:56 PM

tazzygirl

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I work with what I know, Rich. Now, an RN salary starts around 25 an hour. 52,000 a year, base pay, no shift differentials, no extra hours, no unit shif diffs. Starting out, if these women can get child care, they are scrambling for all the hours they can get. There is no earned income tax credit, or very little to offset only a portion of their tax liability. That was one of the first shocks I had that year... a tax bill.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 75

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:05:15 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Relative poverty, by definition, relates more to income inequality - people in the bottom quartile of the income spectrum are - relatively speaking - poor. This one doesn't keep me awake at night.

You and I obviously think alike on this topic but I'd quibble with this point. We now know that several species of animals other than us have a sense of "fair play" and they will react in predictable ways when it is violated. Looking at humans it's not unreasonable to think we also have that "built in" to us somewhere. So again, from a purely pragmatic level I would say that income equality also matters if it violates people's sense of fair play sufficiently that it causes societal problems requiring additional law enforcement, etc. Obviously us humans have a pretty fair tolerance for income inequality. In fact we tend to worship the wealthy. But I suspect there is some sort of limit somewhere that even if people did have the basics a wide enough gap would start to introduce pragmatic problems.

And in the interests of full disclosure I admit that I have an aesthetic preference. I would prefer a society where basic needs are met and opportunity abounds and civil unrest is at a minimum to a totalitarian police state with the sorts of controls required to mitigate broad scale civil unrest. Both options work I just happen to like the first one better. To my dismay though, my fellow Americans seem to very much prefer the police state route. Such is the nature of a democracy though hence why I left the country.

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Post #: 76

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:08:06 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I agree with much of what both you and Jeff have said. A civilization or culture is rated by how well it cares for its weaker members: children, the disabled, the elderly. Guess how the US rates?

The US will continue to rate poorly as long as health care and education are big business.

Although I (somewhat) agree with your definitions below, (sorry forgot to include your poverty definitions) if you don't include why the person is poor, you are not really addressing the problem.

Our aging population means more and more people are going to be in the poverty zone. B/c many elderly are poor due to their health care and prescription costs. I drive a 14 year old Honda. I could afford a Lexus if I had zero health care and prescription costs (literally).

Free education and healthcare for all really would address so many of the problems we have here in this country.

quote:

Relative poverty, by definition, relates more to income inequality - people in the bottom quartile of the income spectrum are - relatively speaking - poor. This one doesn't keep me awake at night.

Absolute poverty relates to the ability, economically, of a person to meet their (and their dependents') basic needs for shelter, warmth, and food. This one bothers me.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 11/30/2012 11:12:27 PM >

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Post #: 77

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:09:06 PM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

And in the interests of full disclosure I admit that I have an aesthetic preference. I would prefer a society where basic needs are met and opportunity abounds and civil unrest is at a minimum to a totalitarian police state with the sorts of controls required to mitigate broad scale civil unrest. Both options work I just happen to like the first one better. To my dismay though, my fellow Americans seem to very much prefer the police state route. Such is the nature of a democracy though hence why I left the country.

Oh sure... I have the same sense of unfairness about the fact that a banker can sit on his arse, fuck up my pension, and still get a £10m bonus while an honest hard working bus driver makes the tiniest fraction.

But... the civil unrest we had over equality and capitalism was nonsense. I went to St Paul's to learn more about the issues when it was all kicking off here... the number of privileged, lazy assed, posh boys and girls who were "showing solidarity with their comrades" made me a little sick!

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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Post #: 78

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:09:07 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Free education and healthcare for all really would address so many of the problems we have here in this country.

I agree!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 79

RE: What is, "poverty?" - 11/30/2012 11:25:09 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Edwynn, I'm drinking the Woodford Reserve tonight (instead of the poverty level Jim Beam) but your attempt to move the bar around is still obvious and pathetic.

This explains your inability to keep focus, even on your own OP, no doubt. I never moved the bar, that was your unstable focus in play there.

In any event, I do find it instructive that you seem to have no issue with the billions that have been allotted to the most profitable corporation in the world these last few years (look it up), or all the money from the US Treasury to agro-chem, Koch Bros. especially,

Just to make your day brighter, you'll be happy to know that Goldman Sachs was the beneficiary of at least $12 BILLION, then another $10 BILLION, recorded as direct profit, much of it paid out in bonuses, ...

from the US Treasury.

There, I knew that would make you happy.

No need to go into the matter of the US government rescuing them from at least another $80 billion in losses.

Two hundred billion (and much more) of tax money to that purpose, and it troubles you not one bit.

Two pennies to the poor, and you go berserk.

Drink up, 'dood.'

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 80

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