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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 1:26:22 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
What measures or other criteria do you use to distinguish between a normal benefit recipient as opposed to the freeloader?


Someone who admits they're not even trying to look for work as long as they're collecting unemployment. Someone who works a seasonal job for a couple of months a year so they can get laid off and collect unemployment. Someone who claimed mental illness as a disability in order to get their student loans forgiven. None of them were at all unable to work, if they had wanted to. It was just easier to take the money.

Pam


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 12/3/2012 1:50:05 AM >

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 1:44:22 AM   
Edwynn


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These are all people that you actually know firsthand, then?

You have obviously met more such people in person or otherwise know them on a sufficiently intimate basis than the average citizen does.

I'm in the SE US, so no trouble coming across a lot of poor people every day. My 'success rate,' as it were, for meeting actual freeloaders is substantially less than yours.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/3/2012 1:56:09 AM >

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 1:46:33 AM   
Edwynn


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~

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/3/2012 1:47:59 AM >

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 1:53:19 AM   
metamorfosis


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Status: offline 		I'm sure there are plenty of people who really need it. But I have to contradict the OP. No, freeloaders are NOT as rare as meeting a celebrity in person.

Pam

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 1:54:37 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


The 'welfare benefit scrounger' or 'lazy undeserving welfare benefits dependent' is about as common as Scotch mist or a four leafed clover.. In fact I'd say that you've got far more chances of meeting a famous celebrity face to face than yo have of ever coming across a welfare freeloader.



If you ever find yourself in the City of London, you'll come up against plenty of welfare scroungers, they are called bankers or becoming more commonly know as BANKSTERS, BANKSTAS or FRAUDSTERS.

As for the poor, what we are typically seeing is the poor being scapegoated by a reightwing government who are or who have been bought and paid for by the capitalist extablishment, for the failure of capitalism.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 1:57:12 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

I'm sure there are plenty of people who really need it. But I have to contradict the OP. No, freeloaders are NOT as rare as meeting a celebrity in person.

Pam


Well no. In an economy so skewed in favour of the haves, just about every rich person is a welfare scrounger.

BTW The middleclass is shrinking fast in both the UK and the USA. Are you going to tell me they are moving up into the rich upper classes because if you are, I've got news for you. 

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 2:02:10 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The middleclass is shrinking fast in both the UK and the USA. Are you going to tell me they are moving up into the rich upper classes because if you are, I've got news for you. 


Um, no. I'm not going to tell you that.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 2:04:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

Someone who admits they're not even trying to look for work as long as they're collecting unemployment. Someone who works a seasonal job for a couple of months a year so they can get laid off and collect unemployment. Someone who claimed mental illness as a disability in order to get their student loans forgiven. None of them were at all unable to work, if they had wanted to. It was just easier to take the money.

Pam



There are over 12 million unemployed in the US and that I presume is the number of people who can claim unemployment benefit. If the US is anything like Britain, the true figure is probably between 30-50% higher when it comes to people actually unemployed and looking for work. That suggest to me, capitalism can't provide enough jobs, not even poverty level jobs to keep everyone in work.  

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 2:04:58 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

I'm sure there are plenty of people who really need it. But I have to contradict the OP. No, freeloaders are NOT as rare as meeting a celebrity in person.

Pam



So that refutes the entire argument? Or what else is the point of highlighting that particular item, then?

A car getting a flat tire does not prove that the idea of tires on cars is wrong.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/3/2012 2:07:36 AM >

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 2:14:15 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
There are over 12 million unemployed in the US and that I presume is the number of people who can claim unemployment benefit. If the US is anything like Britain, the true figure is probably between 30-50% higher when it comes to people actually unemployed and looking for work. That suggest to me, capitalism can't provide enough jobs, not even poverty level jobs to keep everyone in work.  


I did not contradict that.

Pam

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 2:18:16 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
A car getting a flat tire does not prove that the idea of tires on cars is wrong.


Reading comprehension problems tonight, I guess. I'll go ahead and run with your analogy. I didn't say that the idea of tires on cars is wrong. I said seeing three flat tires in a relatively short period of time is evidence that flat tires aren't as rare as some people claim.

Pam


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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 3:08:34 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Get a clue before spouting off.........

Based on what he's posted in these forums to date, do you really think that's even remotely possible?



You know me babe........ever the optomist.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 12/3/2012 3:09:04 AM >

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 3:15:00 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Here is some evidence of scroungers from my little world. I live on a street that is, on the far end of me, has several large homes which have been broken up into sec 8 housing.

These are (ostensibly) filled with women with children, pregnant females, etc. Here is an example of what I have *personally* seen in the last four years or so.

On family consisting of an adult female, her teen-aged daughter, the daughter's female child along with one male who the adult female called her 'husband.'

The husband worked for Fed-ex and drove a brand new truck and a motorbike. The adult female bought a brand new car during the time she lived there. The teen also worked (I'm not sure where, I think it must have been under the table), and also had a car, though it was not new.

All of these people wore high quality, clean clothes in the latest fashion, including the toddler. They were all well fed. The adult female (the only one who didn't work, aside from the toddler) was morbidly obese, which caused her pulmonary problems to the point she was on oxygen. Whatever healthcare this unemployed female had allowed for weekly oxygen delivery to her home. This is a small town, so I've seen both females in this example use food stamps. Despite that these people were very clean in their person, the front porch they used was a health hazard, and I can't imagine the inside of their apt being much better. At least once a week the toddler was bought an expensive toy she broke and then discarded onto the porch or the yard.

I understand how the unemployed and obviously disabled female required assistance, and won't even get into the fact that her situation was caused entirely by her own behavior. But tell me please, why would someone who works for Fedex need sec 8 housing? (Most especially since he had a lucrative pot selling sideline.)

The daughter with the toddler was young, fit and very healthy. The baby's father was in the picture at least some times, though I have no idea if he paid child support. In any case, the daughter worked AND took benefit as well. She had no children care costs as the adult couple watched the toddler while she worked.

This is a family where receiving welfare benefit is considered a 'right.' They lived very well, much better than others on my street who don't receive benefit. The adult female lived with a man who (for Indiana) was relatively well paid. Yet she received benefits including health care, and her daughter received the same.

Sorry, I call them welfare scroungers without any problem at all.

Who wants another example? I have plenty.



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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 3:15:56 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I didn't see that one but I *did* see him go into meltdown at Owen Jones on Question Time. (Or maybe we're talking of the same incident?) As for that French company (Atos) who have so 'efficiently' been getting people's benefits cut off, the last I heard was that some of the doctors on their staff were now in danger of getting struck off by the BMC.

FWIW: I'm not in any doubt that this goes back much farther than the present government. The vilification of benefits claimants has been going on for decades, in fact. Some seven years ago a friend of mine, drawing sickness benefits because he was suffering from depression and/or bipolar disorder (they were never clear which), was assessed as a faker and a malingerer by a Social Security psychiatrist. On hearing that verdict, my friend committed suicide. The psychiatrist's report, having arrived that morning, was pinned to his front door.


I could have got the name wrong, it sounded Welsh though.

ATOS dont even use Doctors all of the time. Some are carried out by nurses trained to do the test, I can only assume these same nurses are better qualified than Doctors in all subjects.

Plenty of cases about as sad as that of your friend Peon. It`s a national disgrace in my opinion, the notion people were not tested under previous governments is false. I read of one poor woman who was very overweight and worked for the DWP, they said she should quit her job but she wouldnt leave. The sent her on an ATOS medical who said she was unfit for work. She made a claim for JSA and failed the ATOS medical who this time claimed she was fit to work...... All this in the same ATOS medical centre.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 3:18:56 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Chatte, it isnt the notion that scroungers dont exist thats the problem, its the fact most people on benefits are not scrounging.

Even the DWPs own figures in the UK show only a tiny percentage of claims are fraudulent.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 3:39:33 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I'm going to totally refute the statement that scroungers are rare. They are not. In the example given above, the people involved simply lied. One took money under the table, the other lived with a man not her husband who contributed to her support.

This is very common, and is not going to show up on any govt stats b/c the govt doesn't know about it. These people were not ashamed to take benefit, far from it, they were proud to be using the system.


Anyone who thinks it's rare for people to be proud to be using the system to get benefits they are not entitled to is not in touch with reality. Now, that's JMO, but I can supply more examples. Many, many more. There have been a *lot* of welfare recipients go through those two houses on my block in the last 4 years. The ones not using the system in some way were the rarity.

And it's not just my little town. When I lived in Chgo, before I had children I volunteered for a program that helped families in Cabrini Green. I got very up close and personal with several families who lived there, as did my two friends who volunteered with me.

Now, I'm not saying that there are no people who need and I do mean need benefits. There are, and they should be taken care of. Some need much more monetary, educational and health care than they are currently being given.

But the only way in hell the US or the UK is going to be able to afford to give those people what they need is to bust the scroungers.

To say the scroungers are rare is just ludicrous, and I am possibly one of the most liberal and socialist-leaning persons involved in this discussion.





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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 3:55:21 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Amen to busting the scroungers.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 4:27:13 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

But the only way in hell the US or the UK is going to be able to afford to give those people what they need is to bust the scroungers.




The only way in hell that the US or UK or any other country is going to keep from going broke, -'going Greece-' is if we take care of the much larger and much more damaging problem of the scroungers on the other end of the income scale.

The scroungers on the low end did not bring about the current financial and economic crisis, those on the top end did, and the middle class has been reduced both in number and in total wealth as a result.

Only some third world countries have the level of tax breaks for highest earning corporations and individuals that the US does, and I don't know of any other developed economy that has the level of staffing from corporate agents in the regulatory system than the US does.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/3/2012 4:35:09 AM >

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 4:37:28 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
What measures or other criteria do you use to distinguish between a normal benefit recipient as opposed to the freeloader?


Someone who admits they're not even trying to look for work as long as they're collecting unemployment.

There are a lot of places where the only jobs available are part-time (because the employer doesn't need to give part-timers the rights they would get if they were full time) for minimum wage, and pay less than unemployment. (When you factor in all the other benefits you lose as soon as you sign off.) So staying on welfare is the economically rational choice.

If you want to change that there are two choices. Cut welfare and starve people into taking starvation wages. Or raise the minimum wage to something people can actually live on, so all jobs are worth taking.
quote:


Someone who works a seasonal job for a couple of months a year so they can get laid off and collect unemployment.
And you know for a fact that the seasonal job wasn't just the only one they could get? My son is trying to get a Xmas job with the Post Office. He's already on JSA, but a month on the decent wages the PO pays is worth the paperwork of signing off and on. I assure you, people get seasonal jobs for other reasons than gaming the system.
quote:


Someone who claimed mental illness as a disability in order to get their student loans forgiven.

By "claimed" mental illness I take it you mean they were faking. I don't know how easy that is in the US, but good luck with it here. I could tell you plenty of horror stories about people with real, painful mental illness who've been classed as fit for work by some outsourced company whose criterion appears to be that if you show up for interview, you're fit. (And if you don't show up you get your money stopped, so the state wins either way.)

Being classed fit to work doesn't, of course, mean they get a job, because there aren't any jobs. It means they get paid less welfare and have to attend "courses" where they get to build towers out of drinking straws and write made-up application letters, for which "training" the firms get paid millions from the public purse. So, which ones are the scroungers?


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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/3/2012 4:40:00 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Although I entirely agree with you, that is not the topic on discussion.

You know, I'm enjoying this new, kinder, less contentious P&R forum; I can stick my toe in the water and swish it around a little without creating too many ripples in the pond.

But those who don't want to discuss the issue at hand and need to derail every thread to expound on their own agenda (even if I agree with their views) don't get a great deal of respect from me.

We have a marvelous venue that allows us to voice our opinions and discuss topics of interest, and in my opinion the only way to keep it that way is for everyone to follow some basic rules of debate. After all, there is nothing stopping you from creating your own thread on topics you wish to discuss.


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