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RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 6:37:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Jesus Christ and his angels of death plan to destroy the Earth and kill all non-Christians

Hmmmm. What does that last book in the bible supposedly foretell? The destruction of the Earth and the slaughter of all non christians. Do many christian groups profess a desire to have this happen as soon as possible? Is it not possible to find explicit statements that environmental destruction and war in the ME are good for christians because it hurries the "end times?"

There are any number of examples I could offer of groups that have flaky extremist elements, and there is always some idiot who can be counted upon to condemn the whole lot for that cause.

K.


Flaky extremist elements equals the largest christian sect in the US in your weird fantasy world? Add in the various and sundry pentacostals, charismatics and other small sects to the Baptists and you're probably dealing with a majority of christians in the country.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 6:39:18 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The founding group is exceptionally dodgy as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_With_A_Mission


Already mentioned above.

Point is, his objection was not based upon Mercy Ships... it was based upon the local church.

The entanglement of the church and school is unconstitutional. It fails 2 prongs of Lemon.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 6:58:12 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Jesus Christ and his angels of death plan to destroy the Earth and kill all non-Christians


Actually this has been subcontracted out to the Master Race of the Andromeda Galaxy




_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 7:17:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The entanglement of the church and school is unconstitutional. It fails 2 prongs of Lemon.


Volunteers are not an entanglement. They werent being paid... they werent sponsoring the event... they werent getting any money from the event.

_____________________________

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 11:58:22 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The entanglement of the church and school is unconstitutional. It fails 2 prongs of Lemon.


Volunteers are not an entanglement. They werent being paid... they werent sponsoring the event... they werent getting any money from the event.

Does the government action have a secular purpose? Raising money for a sectarian charityis not a secular purpose.
Does the government action result in excessive government entanglment? Months of coordination and planning by the church and school is excessive by the SCOTUS precedent.

fail 2 prongs of Lemon and SCOTUS says the action in question is unconstitutional. Therefore the concert was unconstitutional. That's why neither the school or church fought the cease and desist.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 9:36:34 AM   
tazzygirl


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From Lemon emerged the test to see if there were "excessive entanglement between government and religion." A government policy must meet three criteria:

"The statute must have a secular legislative purpose." This is pretty clear: there has to be a non-religious intention behind the legislation.

"Its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion." Note that word effect. So, not only can the intent not relate to religion, the main result of the legislation must be that it doesn't affect religion.

"The statute must not foster 'an excessive government entanglement with religion.'" Religious activities end up being supervised by the government, curricula end up being regulated by the government. These are the kinds of things that this third prong seeks to avoid.


You and I will have to completely disagree on this. I see the purpose of this event to be raising funds for a floating medical ship abroad.

I see no attempt to push a religion upon anyone.

I see no religious attempts to foster their religion upon anyone at the concert.

I dont see the school as trying to supervise or regulate any religious activities.

This was to be a secular concert.

Eventually things of this nature need to come before the courts when people start bullying communities.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 10:22:41 AM   
cordeliasub


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quote:

Eventually things of this nature need to come before the courts when people start bullying communities.


I agree. That was part of why I did my homework. I was well prepared every winter to deal with the possibility of someone who was basically anti-religion. because, let's face it, in cases like this it isn't REALLY about the noble idea of separation - it's something to make a stink about in the name of....well, something that a good psychologist or getting laid might help lol ;)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 10:40:55 AM   
tazzygirl


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I dont see it as much different than the nativity displays. Many were upheld because the primary part of them were secular. This was much the same way. The majority of the music was secular... even the classical pieces. The cause was secular... a charity that provides medical assistance as their primary work.

Too bad the DOE there folded. This would have been fun to watch in the courts.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 11:34:57 AM   
Kirata


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For comparison, here's another First Amendment ruling:

Judge finds NC ‘Choose Life’ plates unconstitutional



U.S. District Court Judge James C. Fox ruled on Friday that North Carolina cannot produce or distribute the “Choose Life” plate. Judge Fox concluded, “The State’s offering of a Choose Life license plate in the absence of a pro-choice plate constitutes viewpoint discrimination in violation of the First Amendment.”

During the 2011 legislative session, the North Carolina General Assembly passed House Bill 289, which authorized the issuance of a “Choose Life” license plate. However, officials say the legislature repeatedly refused to authorize a plate that supported the countervailing position in favor of reproductive freedom.


Note the reasoning.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/10/2012 11:37:27 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 11:49:55 AM   
tazzygirl


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And that reasoning I have no problem with.

5
For example, the following conflicts have been reported in the media
recently (some of the same conflicts arise in many districts across the
nation) :

whether an elementary student could distribute candy canes with a religious message attached to her classmates;
whether the content of a student’s graduation speech was too religious;
whether bricks inscribed with crosses could be placed on a sidewalk as part of a parents’ fundraiser;
whether a minister could post flyers promoting parenting seminars at his church on the school’s bulletin board;
whether schools may exclude flyers promoting activities at religious institutions from distribution in students’ weekly communications packets;
whether a school could require a teacher’s aide to stop wearing a necklace with a cross on it on the outside of her garments;
whether a school district is required to provide bus transportation to students attending religious schools;
whether students could sing a hymn at graduation ceremonies without substituting the word “God” with the word “Him” in the song;
whether the district is required to review all student graduation speeches to ensure they do not contain
prayer or proselytizing language;
whether the school has to establish a Fellowship of Christian Athletes at the high school;
whether a student may perform a song entitled “The Prayer”;
whether the local school board may begin its meeting with a prayer;
whether the school district must accept student service in the form of religious worship to fulfill the school’s community service requirement;
whether the school district’s holiday which includes a menorah must also include a crèche;
whether teachers may include the teaching of other cultures and religious beliefs in their lessons;
may schools prohibit the reading of religious texts during student’s oral reading assignments;
whether students may distribute religious messages within the school;
whether the school must allow religious organizations use of school facilities outside the school day;
whether school districts may charge a fee for religious organization’s use of school facilities outside the school day;
whether the state may require home schooling parents to notify the state department of education of their curricula;
whether a school may allow a student to fulfill his senior project by conducting a Bible study class;
whether a school district can collaborate with religious institutions to provide services to students outside the school day;
whether a school may have Halloween celebrations including the wearing of costumes and distribution of candy during the school day;
whether a student may distribute a statement of her religious beliefs to her classmates during the school day.

Accessed from COSA School Law Issues Page, religion, news, available at http://www.nsba.org/
site/page.asp?TRACKID=&CID=469&DID=8754

http://www.nsba.org/SchoolLaw/Issues/Religion/McCrearyCountyvAmericanCivilLibertiesUnionofKentuckyUSSupCt.pdf

Some of the above I would have issues with.... some.. definitely not. And the courts have agreed, as in the case of wearing a cross or a Star of David.

I just see these militant atheists as hurting their own cause instead of helping. All they do is weaken their own stance in the eyes of the public. When its wrong.. speak out. When its right.. shut up. When its questionable.. ask questions before jumping to a knee jerk reaction.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/10/2012 11:51:35 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 12:24:27 PM   
Kirata


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Thanks for the link.

Did you notice what that brief had to say about the Lemon test that DomKen keeps insisting is clear as day to any unprejudiced person with more than two functioning brain cells?

The erosion of the Lemon test has deprived public school administrators and board members of the clear guidance they need in Establishment Clause cases. The Establishment Clause has been well litigated over the 33 years since this Court handed down its seminal decision of Lemon v. Kurtzman in 1971. Many of these decisions have dealt with establishment of religion within the context of elementary and secondary education.

Consensus in these cases is rare. Of the 28 public school cases, only two were unanimous, ten were 5 to 4 decisions, and seven were decided by a plurality of this Court. In all, these cases have yielded over 100 written opinions of the Justices. Needless to say, these opinions do not offer clear guidance to public school administrators and board members.

The three-pronged analysis of the “Lemon test”3 has been accepted as the primary mode of analysis for Establishment Clause cases. However, courts have struggled to apply it consistently, yielding sometimes disparate and unpredictable results. This Court has also found the application of the Lemon test problematic, applying the prongs in various manners and with inconsistent emphasis.


K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/10/2012 12:28:06 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 12:43:49 PM   
tazzygirl


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I saw that. I also saw where The Court has, over the years as members changed, questioned the application of the Lemon Test at all. Scalia is the latest, I believe.

Maybe Im missing something, but, to me, the Lemon Test seems to apply to laws and policy.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 4:15:35 PM   
FreeFromSin


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I am absolutely opposed to separating religion and morality from the state laws.

Our founding fathers never dreamed we would abandon the Ten Commandments and charity. As Christians (Catholics) we are called to give to the needy, the poor, and the poverty-stricken, and hungry.
This is Christmas!

It's the season on Advent. Dec. 2nd - 24th, 2012.

How dare an Atheist ruin this delightful event!?

These Atheists are no good.
Jesus was born on December 25th.

During this Year of Faith we celebrate the 50th Anniversary of Vatican II.

Advent Daily Prayer

God of eternal mercy and love,
I lift my heart in prayer to you
Throughout these Advent days.

Grant me patience
As I prepare the way
For the Christ's coming.

Inspire me with hope
To await eagerly
The return of Christ in glory.

Fill me with joy
To cry out with the whole Church
Maranatha! Come, Lord Jesus!





_____________________________

The Cat's Meow.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 4:25:23 PM   
tazzygirl


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I am also opposed to anything that makes others feel excluded. I applaud cities that require holiday displays on public property to include other religions.

The purpose of these tests is to prevent what was happening in England... namely the state naming a church that reflects its own purposes and forcing everyone to partake of that one religion.

How we got from there to telling a bunch of kids they cant participate in a charity concert because volunteers came from a church is beyond me.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FreeFromSin)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 4:31:53 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeFromSin

I am absolutely opposed to separating religion and morality from the state laws.

Our founding fathers never dreamed we would abandon the Ten Commandments and charity. As Christians (Catholics) we are called to give to the needy, the poor, and the poverty-stricken, and hungry.
This is Christmas!

It's the season on Advent. Dec. 2nd - 24th, 2012.




The date to celebrate christmas was set by the Emperor Constantine when he legalized christianity in the Roman Empire. The date was chosen because it was also a high feast day for the Roman sun god.

I am Catholic and like any educated Catholic, I know this little fact.


_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to FreeFromSin)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 5:11:35 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The cause was secular... a charity that provides medical assistance as their primary work.

Mercy Ships' own language sounds far from secular, at least to my ear:

Mission
Mercy Ships follows the 2000-year-old model of Jesus,
bringing hope and healing to the world’s forgotten poor.

Vision
Mercy Ships seeks to become the face of love in action,
bringing hope and healing to the poor.

Values
Following the model of Jesus, we seek to:
• Love God.
• Love and serve others.
• Be people of integrity.
• Be people of excellence in all we say and do.

Source: Mercy Ships 2011 Annual Report, p. 10

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 5:22:15 PM   
tazzygirl


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I worked for a company that listed god among its company values. It also listed discrimination on any level was not allowed. I see Mercy Ships follows that as well.

I know many hospitals that are run by religious bodies.... and their primary service is health care, not religion.

Again, the atheists issue was not with the charity, it was with the local church.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 5:53:50 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I worked for a company that listed god among its company values. It also listed discrimination on any level was not allowed. I see Mercy Ships follows that as well.

So what do you make of the explicitly Christian language in Mercy Ships' own self-description? Is it just window dressing? Given that Mercy Ships clearly roots itself in a religious tradition, why do you describe it as "secular"?

In terms of discrimination, Mercy Ships' volunteer FAQ says, "Although the vast majority of our staff and volunteers are followers of Jesus, we will consider all applicants. At the discretion of the Managing Director, non-Christian volunteers may be accepted short-term, based on their skills and our needs." I wonder why they only accept non-Christians on a short-term basis.


quote:

I know many hospitals that are run by religious bodies.... and their primary service is health care, not religion.

Not long ago, weren't some hospitals arguing that their religious affiliation should exempt them from the HHS mandate to fund contraceptives in employee health care? It's funny: That whole debate got me to thinking about my own hospital experiences. As an adult, I've been hospitalized four times. One stay was at a Catholic hospital. There honestly seemed to be a qualitative difference, in a good way, to the care. Not least was the way that chaplains (whom I never encountered in the other three stays) reached out in a warm and (to me) welcoming way.


quote:

Again, the atheists issue was not with the charity, it was with the local church.

That's a quibble. The discussion evolved, as threads do, and DK made the interesting point that public facilities (i.e., the school) were being raised to support a sectarian charity (i.e., Mercy Ships). You observed, "The cause was secular." I'm having trouble squaring that with Mercy Ships' own presentation of its identity.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 6:17:11 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

So what do you make of the explicitly Christian language in Mercy Ships' own self-description? Is it just window dressing? Given that Mercy Ships clearly roots itself in a religious tradition, why do you describe it as "secular"?


I describe it as humanitarian. I do not describe is as religious.

Mercy Ships is a faith-based humanitarian organisation dedicated to bringing "hope and healing to the world's forgotten poor", according to its vision statement.



quote:

In terms of discrimination, Mercy Ships' volunteer FAQ says, "Although the vast majority of our staff and volunteers are followers of Jesus, we will consider all applicants. At the discretion of the Managing Director, non-Christian volunteers may be accepted short-term, based on their skills and our needs." I wonder why they only accept non-Christians on a short-term basis.


You would have to ask them. Might have something to do with the fact they are parked for the better part of a year off the coast of a third world country.

quote:

Not long ago, weren't some hospitals arguing that their religious affiliation should exempt them from the HHS mandate to fund contraceptives in employee health care?


And? I was quite vocal that they were wrong and should follow the rules as any other employer.

quote:

It's funny: That whole debate got me to thinking about my own hospital experiences. As an adult, I've been hospitalized four times. One stay was at a Catholic hospital. There honestly seemed to be a qualitative difference, in a good way, to the care. Not least was the way that chaplains (whom I never encountered in the other three stays) reached out in a warm and (to me) welcoming way.


I had chaplains and preachers in almost every hospital I worked in willing and eager to do the same.... and they were all "secular" hospitals.

quote:

That's a quibble. The discussion evolved, as threads do, and DK made the interesting point that public facilities (i.e., the school) were being raised to support a sectarian charity (i.e., Mercy Ships). You observed, "The cause was secular." I'm having trouble squaring that with Mercy Ships' own presentation of its identity.


What is religious about the following?

Mercy Ships is a faith-based humanitarian organisation dedicated to bringing "hope and healing to the world's forgotten poor", according to its vision statement. (1) It runs programmes to promote health and well-being by serving the urgent surgical needs of the poor in West Africa's most impoverished nations and empowering developing communities. Founded in 1978, Mercy Ships has provided services in developing nations valued at more than $NZ 1.1 billion, and affecting around 2.9 million people. (1)

Africa Mercy is a 16,000-ton hospital ship, seven stories high, with 70 beds--65 beds in three wards, three intensive care unit beds and two isolation beds. The hospital has a staff of 191 volunteers, including nurses, surgeons, laboratory, pharmacy, radiology and rehabilitation staff, supply assistants and administrators.

At any one time, 80 nurses and a team of six to eight surgeons are on board providing treatment and surgery. Six surgical specialties are undertaken--general, plastics, paediatric orthopaedics, maxillofacial/otolaryngology, opthalmic and uro-gynaecological.

Since its establishment by Americans Don and Deyon Stephens, Mercy Ships has:

* Performed more than 56,000 life-changing operations such as cleft lip and palate repair, cataract removal, straightening of crossed eyes, orthopaedic and facial reconstruction.

* Treated more than 520,000 patients in village medical and dental clinics.

* Treated more than 95,800 dental patients, with more than 228,100 dental procedures performed.

* Educated about 29,000 local health care workers who have, in turn, trained multiple thousands in primary health care.

* Trained local medical professionals in modern health care techniques.

* Completed more than 1095 community development projects, focusing on water and sanitation, education, infrastructure development and agriculture.

* Completed more than 563 port visits in 53 developing and 17 developed nations. (1)

Communications manager for Mercy Ships New Zealand Sharon Walls explains that once the organisation has decided on what country it will work in, preliminary work is done with the relevant government a year or more ahead of time. Once a protocol has been signed, a Mercy Ships team begins advance work on location with the local Ministry of Health and other stakeholders. Part of the team's rote is to work with the local harbourmaster and sort out the details for the Africa Mercy to be in that port for the entire 10 months of the field service. This is most often in the country's largest port because of the size of the ship, its fresh water requirements, availability to a large percentage of the population, and for accessibility of transport for patients and their families.

"Very disabled and disfigured people travel long distances to get to the ship for surgery. We often work with Red Cross and Medicins Sans Frontieres to have patients flown in from remote locations. It is not unusual for a patient to be carried many miles by a family member because they can't afford transport and can't walk themselves. Some people walk for days to get to a screening," Walls said.

Before the ship arrives in port, a medical team is involved in screening and selecting appropriate patients and then scheduling them for surgery. These assessments take place in remote, inland locations. Once the ship arrives, a three-day screening takes place, with thousands of people being seen. For the 10 months the ship is in port, both remote and dockside screenings, particularly for opthalmic and dental patients, continues. Sierra Leone has one dentist per million people. Agricultural programmes, HIV/ AIDS education, and other health-care related courses are also provided.

Reference

(1) Mercy Ships (2010) Annual Report 2010, http://mercyships. org.nz/assets/files/2010%20Annual%20Report.pdf. Retrieved 21/11/11.


http://www.biomedsearch.com/article/Mercy-Ships-faith-based-humanitarian/276720726.html

I could see it if the patients were required to convert for these procedures. Or if the staff were forced to convert for a paid position. Or if clergy were required to pray over the patients before each operation.

But I have no evidence of any of that. Do you?

What they are doing is secular.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/10/2012 6:20:04 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Church and State - 12/10/2012 10:52:10 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

Let's consider a hypothetical Atheist organization that dedicates itself to bringing hope and healing to the poor, to loving and serving others, and to being people of integrity and excellence in all that it does, but which (instead of invoking God and Christ) states that it's mission, vision, and values have been adopted to demonstrate that goodness and mercy do not require a belief in God.

Given otherwise identical circumstances, would there be a First Amendment problem? Could churches threaten a lawsuit?

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 160
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