RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 2:28:07 PM)


quote:


ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That punishes the kids, though - it wasn't their fault they got born.




quote:

It doesn't punish them. It just doesn't help them. The parents are the ones that landed them in a fucked up situation to begin with. Sad fact of life: if one is born to shitty parents, one is all kinds of screwed, regardless. There's some that turn out great, but as far as I can tell, those are the ones that would've turned out truly excellent if they had good parents. In essence, helping those kids also means enabling shitty parents, which is detrimental to everyone in the long run.


Bloody hell, Aswad, that's astonishing!

You must know that it's never just the parents that land kids in the situation that they're in; nor are kids the sole responsibility of their parents. Those parents live in a social setting. More importantly, the word 'society' means absolutely bugger all unless the group of humans involved look after the most vulnerable. What sort of people are more vulnerable than the kids of parents who've ballsed up their lives? Really, what is the point in humans evolving and advancing if we can't do this, arguably the most minimal thing expected of humans who call themselves 'civilised'?

And if that weren't enough - where on earth does this assumption come from that kids are nothing but a drain? We invest in the machines that will be needed to enable us to survive in the future - what about the humans that'll be required to operate those machines? And last but not least - who's going to be working to pay for the pensions of you and I when we get to that age?



Aswad -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 3:27:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sorry Aswad, that's what they do here.


A L'Oreal commercial is not a study.

Assuming I even figured out what you were replying to, which didn't include any of the important parts, certainly.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 3:29:59 PM)

Parents get £20.30 a week for the first child, £13.40 a week for all subsequent children.

And the personal jobseekers allowance goes up from £53.60 a week to just under £95 a week just for being a parent with dependent children.
And if you also claim Child Tax Credits, that's an extra £54 a week for each child.

Dunno where you got £15 a week from.

And yes, my OH's best friend had 3 of her 6 kids all 40 weeks apart.
She has had all over her kids early and her eldest daughter is about to drop hers too - and she's only just 35 weeks pregnant.
Not a story, true fact.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 3:33:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sorry Aswad, that's what they do here.


A L'Oreal commercial is not a study.

Assuming I even figured out what you were replying to, which didn't include any of the important parts, certainly.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


It's a TV advert - one of many and also what I eluded to in my post.

As with TV viewing figures, hospitals overcrowded and many other things in the UK.
They take a very small sample and extrapolate that across the whole country.
It's mad, but common practice here in the UK.



Lucylastic -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 3:35:33 PM)

Please note I used funding back from the late 80s, I did say I dont know what the rates are today.
You seem to know an awful lot of preemie babys moms. But I still call shenanigans.
Given your attempts to slag off JUST the women tho..You dont get much credibility at all
but there ya go



cordeliasub -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:17:12 PM)

Very true, Lucytastic. I mean, obviously there are lots of men having sex with these "sluts' or they wouldn't be pregnant.......



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:23:46 PM)

quote:

And yes, my OH's best friend had 3 of her 6 kids all 40 weeks apart.
She has had all over her kids early and her eldest daughter is about to drop hers too - and she's only just 35 weeks pregnant.
Not a story, true fact.


First, I have no clue what "OH" means.

Second, 40 weeks apart isnt telling me anything. If she had then all at 32 weeks, then she got pregnant 2 months after delivery.

Btw, its possible she has a slightly incompetent cervix, which would explain a lot.

Im curious as to why you know such intimate details about so many people around you.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:27:41 PM)

I slag off the women because the guys can't have kids :)

And the way the judicial system is over here, unless the people are together, the guys tend to get the shitty end of the stick when it comes to custody or even visiting rights.
That's why there are so many single mums here.

In my street here, there are about 52 houses in total.
I know that at least 3 or 4 of them appear to be used as temporary housing because people come and go about every 2-3 months.
About 6 are actually bought and owned or privately owned with a mortgage.
The rest are what you would call social housing - council houses to us - properties owned by a local housing association or the local council.
At least 3 of those, apart from us, have fairly old disabled people living in them. By old, I mean 50+.
6 or 7 of them are single pensioners living on their own.
The rest are occupied by predominantly single mums and all of them have at least 3 kids, mostly under 10-12 with a few teenagers.
I only know of ONE family in our street that actually works - the rest, including us, are on benefits.
Nearly every day, the immediate neighbour has a mothers meeting of around 6-7 mums gathered in her front garden and they yak for hours about who does what, who fiddles the system, what the latest scam is etc.
Admittedly some may be genuine cases but from what we know and what we overhear, they are all scroungers playing the system.
How can you say that more than 50% of the kids in this street alone are suffering from ADD/ADHD or something similar and the parents are claiming disability payments for the kids? We know the neighbour is claiming, and receiving, over £450 a week just in disability payments for her 3 brats and her circle of coffee-morning friends appear to be doing the same thing.
That's just unreal. The kids aren't ADD or ADHD, they are just fucking unruly brats that the parents can't be assed to correct or control and let them run riot. They take them to the doctors and claim they can't control them so they say they are dysfunctional with a medical condition.
And I honestly don't believe that we are a unique street either.
There must be many other similar streets in every major town and city throughout the whole of the UK.

Its scroungers like these that are costing the country £billions in benefit payments.
Add that to the fat cats that are legally tax-dodging and we have a huge money drain that should be plugged.


Edit for tazzy: OH = Other Half. Be that partner or husband/wife.



PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:31:02 PM)

Redundant comment: FD has explained.

ETA - feck, my spelling's going off. Grrr!



PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:40:40 PM)

FD,

You are beginning to remind me strongly of a friend who, when flying over the Amazonian rain forest, said afterwards that he didn't believe that it was being deforested because it 'looked all right to him'. He felt - and still feels - that his anecdotal evidence is somehow automatically more real and valuable than any evidence that comes as a result of 'abstract studies'.

It is not. I know that there's been a big and loud movement recently that's said, roughly, '"Real" experience is worth anything you can learn in books'. But that argument has been severely overstated. You can only go so far talking about this or that person you know, a neighbour who lives up the street, or someone who was standing in some queue ahead of you at some government office.

I think you need to support your case with much wider evidence. If it's there, you'll be able to find it - these days, as never before. The existence of the Internet means we're not all crippled by lack of access to university libraries anymore.



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:45:39 PM)

Didnt they just do a welfare reform there?

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/welfare-reform/

As a matter of fact, quite a few reforms by the looks of things. And it looks like your complaint about housing is next on the list.

Surely you knew that.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 4:55:53 PM)

I agree peon.

I'm just using my personal experiences as a very good example of why we have soo many fraudulent benefit claims.

You only have to look at any red-top or the likes of the Daily Wail to see reports of scroungers that are slowly being caught.
My OH is an avid reader of The Sun on the online version.
She sees this sort of thing virtually every day in there.
And of course, these are only the ones that hit the headlines.

It just makes you wonder how many haven't been caught yet or who are 'legitimately' conning the system out of £billions because the system couldn't cope with testing every single disability claim when it comes to kids. They take the easy option and pay out until somebody shops them or they do something to arouse suspicion.

As for my description of the social microcosm of our street, it's been pretty much the same no matter where I've lived up and down the eastern side of the UK.
That's why I say where we are now isn't unique at all.
In fact, I'd go so far to say it's pretty typical and probably quite common.




PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Didnt they just do a welfare reform there?



The new government's been on a 'bash the benefit claimants' since it got into office, Tazzy. The anti-claimant rhetoric has been so pervasive here, for so long and by all colours of the political spectrum, that it seems that these days no amount of stamping on them is enough. There are more 'reforms' - ie yet harsher bashing - to come, as well, according to our chancellor.



PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:04:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I'm just using my personal experiences as a very good example of why we have soo many fraudulent benefit claims.


It's run out of use by now, FD. It doesn't carry enough respect this far into the thread.

quote:

In fact, I'd go so far to say it's pretty typical and probably quite common.


You're not in a position to assert that in a way that's credible. You haven't said anything that demonstrates that anything is 'quite common'. Your evidence so far hasn't been up to the job for that.



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:06:08 PM)

quote:

The rest are occupied by predominantly single mums and all of them have at least 3 kids, mostly under 10-12 with a few teenagers.
I only know of ONE family in our street that actually works - the rest, including us, are on benefits.


I simply gotta ask. If you are so fired up worried about how much is spent on benefits, why are you taking them? And, from your profile, it looks like you will be moving another in with you.

And you want to complain about the costs of welfare there? You are sounding more and more like a bitter old man.

quote:

I slag off the women because the guys can't have kids :)


They cant have them alone, now can they.



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:07:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Didnt they just do a welfare reform there?



The new government's been on a 'bash the benefit claimants' since it got into office, Tazzy. The anti-claimant rhetoric has been so pervasive here, for so long and by all colours of the political spectrum, that it seems that these days no amount of stamping on them is enough. There are more 'reforms' - ie yet harsher bashing - to come, as well, according to our chancellor.


I read something about him wanting to take housing away from anyone under 25 and force them to live with their families.

Guess orphans are just shit out of luck.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:16:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Didnt they just do a welfare reform there?

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/welfare-reform/

As a matter of fact, quite a few reforms by the looks of things. And it looks like your complaint about housing is next on the list.

Surely you knew that.


Yes they are tazzy.

But to take just the first paragraph -
"We are reforming the system to help people to move into and progress in work, while supporting the most vulnerable.

Reforming the benefit system aims to make it fairer, more affordable and better able to tackle poverty, worklessness and welfare dependency. We are committed to overhaul the benefit system to promote work and personal responsibility."

First off, none of the reforms have been approved yet.
And going by so many reforms being dropped, severely changed, or just not making it through the house of commons AND the house of Lords, I suspect that an awful lot of what they are proposing just won't make it into reality or get watered down to the point of being ineffective.

If the jobs aren't there to be had in the first place, you can't take people off of benefits and out of the system.

And, in my opinion, the benefit reforms do not help the most vulnerable at all - it's a whitewash.
Take our example as a for-instance. We, like many couples, have teenage kids that have left school and cannot find training schemes or a job.
In that situation, we don't get any benefit payments whatsoever for the kids because they aren't in school or training. We still have to feed and clothe them and provide other necessities.
On top of that, once they reach 18, they REDUCE your benefit payments by a minimum of £12.70 a week because they "assume" that is what the kids are contributing towards their keep. But how can they pay anything if they have no income at all??
If they manage to find somewhere else to live, you will be penalised by £25 a week for having an unoccupied room that is not being lived in.

And this new "Personal Independence Payment" system requires that you register every week via the internet to get your payments or you won't get paid.
Not everyone has a smart phone or a computer to be able to get onto the internet to make their claim.

All this is assuming that the change-over goes smoothly.
By their track record, anything like this is usually an unmitigated disaster.

Then there will be more elections in 2015.
The labour party will change it all again because they don't like the 'new' system.

It's going to be a complete mess whatever happens.


Edit for tazzy: yes, they have already implemented the new housing regulations. People under 25 do not get any housing benefits at all and what they are allowed is already capped at an unrealistic rate that wouldn't barely cover half the rent usually wanted by landlords. And, according to my step-daughter, just about every private landlord and letting agent that she has approached has told her that nobody under 35 will be accepted without a guarantor.



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:22:05 PM)

quote:

First off, none of the reforms have been approved yet.


Im not British... what does "royal assent" mean? Isnt that the last step before becoming a act or law? And didnt they just pass a the Welfare Reform Act 2012?

quote:

And this new "Personal Independence Payment" system requires that you register every week via the internet to get your payments or you won't get paid.
Not everyone has a smart phone or a computer to be able to get onto the internet to make their claim.


But, surely that shouldnt matter. Its what you want. Real reform. Kick these kids (adult kids) off and make them fend for themselves.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:31:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

First off, none of the reforms have been approved yet.


Im not British... what does "royal assent" mean? Isnt that the last step before becoming a act or law? And didnt they just pass a the Welfare Reform Act 2012?

quote:

And this new "Personal Independence Payment" system requires that you register every week via the internet to get your payments or you won't get paid.
Not everyone has a smart phone or a computer to be able to get onto the internet to make their claim.


But, surely that shouldnt matter. Its what you want. Real reform. Kick these kids (adult kids) off and make them fend for themselves.

I don't think that 'Royal Aseent means that (though I've not looked it up).
AFAIK, Royal Assent means that the government has royal approval to put it before the house of commons and the house of lords for a vote as opposed to just being a 'white paper' or a bill for discussion.

I would deearly love reform.
But here's just one problem with it ...
Kids between 16 and 18. You have a legal obligation to care for them, so you can't just kick them out into the streets to fend for themselves - you'd be prosecuted by the social services for abandonment.
I know, I tried to do that with my step-son who was living with us under a court order and he was a right little shit. We had to wait until he had his 18th birthday before I could properly and legally serve him notice to quit.



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare scrounging - about as low as it gets (12/13/2012 5:38:27 PM)

quote:

Kids between 16 and 18. You have a legal obligation to care for them, so you can't just kick them out into the streets to fend for themselves - you'd be prosecuted by the social services for abandonment.
I know, I tried to do that with my step-son who was living with us under a court order and he was a right little shit. We had to wait until he had his 18th birthday before I could properly and legally serve him notice to quit.


Sucks to be a parent at times... but none of these kids asked to be born. Parents take on that responsibility every time that sperm swims its way into her "love canal".

There is a price for everything... including having sex. Allowing one parent off the hook because he didnt carry it for 9 months is pretty shitty. Which is why I feel the way I do about birth control and abortions. But thats another topic.

You admit there is no training there.

You admit the job market is pretty dismal.

And then you bash these women for finding a way to survive.

Could it be that you are upset because its only women who have this out?



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