RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other.

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

JeffBC -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:07:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What clear and present dangers are there in suburbia that require people to have guns to protect themselves? I'm sorry but I'm afraid you'll need the other argument to convince me. We are discussing whether the government is going to restrict the freedom of people who wish to own guns. I need a solid argument in favor of that. The default would be "no". So my answer to your question is, "There doesn't need to be a clear and present danger... simply desire." Now... if you want to actually tackle your question I would argue that the clear and present danger is exactly the one the founding fathers envisioned. quote: Other people with guns maybe? Liberal gun laws perpetuate gun ownership, gun crime and gun use and gun related deaths. The statistics are clear cut and can't be argued, though gun fanatics do. Actually I've seen quite a few arguments here. What I haven't seen is a compelling argument from the "no guns" side. And honestly, common sense would indicate that if I wanted to minimize crime (including violent crime) I'd be looking at things like poverty and education first and foremost. I don't own a gun. I never have. I have no intention of buying one any time soon.

jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:07:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl A shotgun wont solve your problem? Does it have to be a semi or automatic? Dont mistake what I am saying here. I am not talking about restricting all guns to secure lockers. I am speaking of the semi's and the full auto's. No one should lose access to target practice with their favorite weapon, within reason, simply because of a few nut cases. But, the gun owner also has to be responsible. For all other weapons, a safe at home, lock them up. No one needs dozens of guns lying around. Tazzy are you a shooter? Ever fired a shotgun? Do you know anything about them? Do you know what smooth bore means? If not let me explain. A shotgun is a smooth bore weapon. This means there is no rifling in the barrel to impart spin on the round. This means that if you fire a solid round like a deer slug, the range and accuracy are severely limited. And if you fire buckshot, you better be pretty damn close to whatever you are shooting at to make sure of a kill, unless you are bird hunting, then the inevitable spread of the shot works in your favor. Now, say you have a lever action rifle, like in the westerns. Fire a round, and say you miss, you have to take the weapon away from aimed and ready to fire to lever another round into the chamber. I have seen coyotes and other predators take to brush in the time it takes to do just that. A bolt action is a little better, but after you operate the bolt you have to reacquire your target, again it gives that predator a chance to vanish in the brush. Give me a semi automatic rifle with a five round magazine and I have a better chance to get the damn thing. By the way, most predators hunt at night, adds a bit of difficulty and makes it harder to be sure of your first shot.

igor2003 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:11:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Most just leave them out in the open, so to speak. Im not saying she was extremely responsible for having them in the home. I dont like semi's at all. My idea would be a requirement for them to be kept locked at a shooting range. If all the people claiming they want them for target practice, what better place to keep them but where you practice at? Not all shooting ranges are indoors. The city where I live has an outdoor range for the police department, as do several other cities in the area where I live, though some (but not all) do have indoor storage areas. I know of several public ranges in the area that are outdoors, with no "clubhouse" or buildings of that nature. And many people simply go into the foothills or mountains in this area to do their target shooting or for sighting in their rifles and scopes, or shooting at clay pidgeons. Often the target shooting is tied in to other activities in order to make a full day or weekend excursion, such as camping, fishing, boating, picnics, or simple drives in the country. And of course your idea of locking guns up at a gun range doesn't even begin to address firearms that are purchased for personal or home protection. But then, you already knew that.

came4U -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:12:52 AM)
dear, we have discussed it as anyone can find from searching, I was just making the point that if you in such a business or aftercare and still advocate on behalf of the positive effects of abortion--you have contributed to how many deaths? Yet you continue to worry about semi-automatics. I should have said that you were grumbling about automatic weapons earlier...not guns in general, sorry. 3 deaths or 1000 is too many in my eyes (and yes, incuding the unborn, defenseless and unarmed). It is all the same. so forget about that point about YOU, if you can, I was just being honest in my opinion that death is death is death and how (not so far) we have come. I am sorry I used you as fodder for my example, but I am running out of steam. It was merely to make my point that whether you kill (or advocate to kill) for one or a thousand --the number of rounds fired in one minute is of no consequence. The fact is you are killing, and when and HOW can the killing stop???

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:15:23 AM)
quote: Tazzy are you a shooter? Ever fired a shotgun? Do you know anything about them? Do you know what smooth bore means? Yes, yes, yes, yes. I can even hunt with a bow. [;)] In fact, growing up, after my father retired from the military, we had a few acres of land, enough room for a horse, cow, a few pigs, rabbits and chickens, as well as a small plot to grow vegetables. So, yes, I am also aware of nightly predators. And we never required a semi or fully automatic weapon to take care of them.

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:19:04 AM)
quote: the number of rounds fired in one minute is of no consequence. The fact is you are killing, and when and HOW can the killing stop??? It can be of huge consequence when the number of rounds available can be the difference between one person... even just one.. being alive or dead when these things happen. I gave a solution. Whats yours?

Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:20:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Sweden and Denmark's GDP is 60% of Norway's, that is a huge difference. Yet, the median disposable household income at purchase parity power is comparable between the three, and much of our GDP goes into a fund that isn't going to be tapped for a long time, so the full extent of the limited difference isn't going to be very visible for a long time. I submit that you are unlikely to find three more comparable countries in the world. Seems the social science folks agree. quote: There is a correlation when you weigh the statistics with socio-economic advantages and disavantages. If you've got a good table for socioeconomics handy, I know some politicians and the like that would love to get their hands on those data right away, as actually correcting for such factors across countries is a fairly complex task that nobody seems to have the hang of yet. IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:22:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Most just leave them out in the open, so to speak. Im not saying she was extremely responsible for having them in the home. I dont like semi's at all. My idea would be a requirement for them to be kept locked at a shooting range. If all the people claiming they want them for target practice, what better place to keep them but where you practice at? Not all shooting ranges are indoors. The city where I live has an outdoor range for the police department, as do several other cities in the area where I live, though some (but not all) do have indoor storage areas. I know of several public ranges in the area that are outdoors, with no "clubhouse" or buildings of that nature. And many people simply go into the foothills or mountains in this area to do their target shooting or for sighting in their rifles and scopes, or shooting at clay pidgeons. Often the target shooting is tied in to other activities in order to make a full day or weekend excursion, such as camping, fishing, boating, picnics, or simple drives in the country. And of course your idea of locking guns up at a gun range doesn't even begin to address firearms that are purchased for personal or home protection. But then, you already knew that. Thats because I hate private sales and feel that loophole should be closed permanently. And, yes, I know most firing ranges are out doors... thats why I mentioned a grenade launcher. I would hope someone doesnt try to use one inside.

jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:30:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Tazzy are you a shooter? Ever fired a shotgun? Do you know anything about them? Do you know what smooth bore means? Yes, yes, yes, yes. I can even hunt with a bow. [;)] In fact, growing up, after my father retired from the military, we had a few acres of land, enough room for a horse, cow, a few pigs, rabbits and chickens, as well as a small plot to grow vegetables. So, yes, I am also aware of nightly predators. And we never required a semi or fully automatic weapon to take care of them. thanks for clearing up the topic of your experience. I think you missed a key point I made. I said a five (5) round magazine, the same number my model 70 bolt action holds. I agree with what has been said, other than reducing the number of times I have to reload, why does anyone need a 10, 15 or 30 round magazine? They sure are not an aid in hunting, unless you have a hell of a lot of porters to carry out that many dead deer (I dont know of any state that has more of a five deer limit per season) So that leaves just one use for large capacity magazines. And Friday we saw that reason. I admitted earlier that I have a few high cap mags, and why. I am a survivalist and firmly believe that, looking at the shape of the world today, a major crisis is coming. I also have a larger than average supply of ammo. I think the present accepted term is "prepper" However, at the various shooting ranges I have used in the different places I have lived, they usually had an ample supply of large round mags for people to use on the range. I also suffer from bipolar disorder and ptsd, which if you believe the media propaganda makes me a risk for going postal. I have only been receiving treatment for those two conditions since 2002, I have owned firearms since I was thirteen, when my father gave me a bolt action mouser. This year I turned 51. Do the math, what do you think the risk factor is? Oh, one more thing that I brought up in a thread in which I complained about not being able to buy an operational tank. Pay the right fees to the federal government and you can go and buy a M134 7.62 mm mini gun capable of firing 6000 thousand rounds a minute. Someone pro gun please explain why in the hell anyone would need one of these? Next who could afford the ammo to feed the damn thing?

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:33:29 AM)
Ugh.... this is what you arent getting. Consider how long it takes to operate a pump shot gun. Hard to kill 39 people with it, no? How about a pistol? Time to reload eventually before you hit that magical number you want to claim. If the killer had not had two semi automatic weapons in that school, would he have killed as many as he did? The answer is no. How many guns would someone have to take with them to do the same type of damage as it would take with a semi automatic or an automatic. These kids grabbed those weapons to so the maximum amount of damage in a short period of time. Thats the goal. Kill as many as possible then themselves before being caught. But, like those in Columbine, and those yesterday, if they did not have access to those guns, to any guns, they would have had to find a different avenue to killing. Somehow, I think you missed my whole discussion with LaT about gun safes.

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:39:11 AM)
And you admitted to having pretty much installed them into a home that sounds very secure. How many gun owners do not? All I am advocating is that all semi's and auto's be held in lockers, the rest that are kept in homes be held in safes without key access. I gew up in a time when the guys in high school would load up the truck rack with guns on friday because right after school they were going hunting on the weekends. We didnt bat an eye. School's didnt have a problem with it. I am not a person intent on removing guns from society. I happen to agree that course of action would only remove those from law abiding citizens. But I have no problem restricting access.

Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:49:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Personally, I think the rights of innocents trump ANY person's enjoyment of shooting dick extension toys. Yanno, not all of us are into dick extension. Some of us happen to be into deep concentration, extreme engineering, taming the forces of nature, and all manner of intellectual and emotional things that have precisely squat to do with dick extension. Indeed, calling it that may be seen as licence to make the similarly offensive (and in the same way) statement that what you said amounts to womb extension, to cover everyone in a protective environment where they can't do anything, but also can't be harmed. I hope you realize I'm not actually stating it, just illustrating in what manner your statement offends by analogy. In my experience, storage is the main issue. Can we agree availability is a factor? Storage defines availability. IWYW, — Aswad.

jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:50:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ugh.... this is what you arent getting. Consider how long it takes to operate a pump shot gun. Hard to kill 39 people with it, no? How about a pistol? Time to reload eventually before you hit that magical number you want to claim. If the killer had not had two semi automatic weapons in that school, would he have killed as many as he did? The answer is no. How many guns would someone have to take with them to do the same type of damage as it would take with a semi automatic or an automatic. These kids grabbed those weapons to so the maximum amount of damage in a short period of time. Thats the goal. Kill as many as possible then themselves before being caught. But, like those in Columbine, and those yesterday, if they did not have access to those guns, to any guns, they would have had to find a different avenue to killing. Somehow, I think you missed my whole discussion with LaT about gun safes. Let me give you a counter point. Police officers do not normally carry more than 10 rounds in their service weapon. I have never met a LEO that had a large cap mag in his service pistol. I own a Glock .40 and a Sig 9mm. Both can handle a large cap mag, which I find a bit clumsy and all those rounds change the weight and balance in my opinion. I prefer 10 round mags, or the 8 round mags. My favorite pistol is a model 1911 colt 45 acp. m 7 round max load. The first part of my solution to stop mass killings, get rid of the high cap mags. Not the weapon. Second part of my solution, keypad gun safes. Third part of my solution, make the owners of the weapons used in such crimes criminally accountable as an accessory to the crime. The parents of the Columbine shooters and the girl that legally bought two of the weapons faced no criminal charges. Fourth part of my solution, make it illegal or a hell of a lot harder for a private owner to sell a fire arm without reporting it. For example, if a person wants to sell a firearm, he/she must take the weapon to the local police or sheriff station, where it is kept until the purchase is made, and before it is turned over to the buyer, the LEO's can run a background check. If a gun is sold without following this process, the seller is held accountable as an accessory to the crime if used in a criminal act. Fifth part of my solution, make it illegal for anyone to sell a gun at a gun show without running a background check. Does that solution sound like a reasonable and workable gun law?

Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:53:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Or it couold be that she kept one out for protection, he killed her, and got the key for the rest. Or it could be she had just killed herself, maybe over something at school, and he just found her dead. As you said, we don't know. IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:57:03 AM)
quote: The first part of my solution to stop mass killings, get rid of the high cap mags. Not the weapon. Yet they can be modified as you pointed out earlier. And hey are available on the secondary market, as well as through private sales. quote: Second part of my solution, keypad gun safes. Same one I gave. quote: Third part of my solution, make the owners of the weapons used in such crimes criminally accountable as an accessory to the crime. The parents of the Columbine shooters and the girl that legally bought two of the weapons faced no criminal charges. They would have to prove the guns were not stolen. If guns were required ot be within safes, and not with keys or glass doors, then the ability to hold them accountable would be easier to prove. quote: Fourth part of my solution, make it illegal or a hell of a lot harder for a private owner to sell a fire arm without reporting it. For example, if a person wants to sell a firearm, he/she must take the weapon to the local police or sheriff station, where it is kept until the purchase is made, and before it is turned over to the buyer, the LEO's can run a background check. If a gun is sold without following this process, the seller is held accountable as an accessory to the crime if used in a criminal act. I have long advocated for ending the gun shows with private sales... in fact.. private sales at all. The reporting requirement would be too easy to get around. But, if all high power weapons are kept in lockers, a trail would automatically be established, because the transfer would be in the system.

Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 10:59:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse But, a safe is only as safe as the key to that safe is. Hence my post about my boss. First off, a safe with a code lock plus key requires something you know and something you have, meaning the key isn't enough. Second, if people make off with the key, we're into premeditation, and that you can't guard against (including a ban). IWYW, — Aswad.

TheGorenSociety -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 11:15:31 AM)
Anything that can be made legally, can just as well be made and make much more profit from illegally.For instance the drug market. Prohibition banning proved the solution does not work.

papassion -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 11:23:21 AM)
Hey! I have a great idea! Lets make a law to outlaw drugs! Look at all the broken lives and drug related crimes that law would stop! What? there already are laws against drugs? And drug usage and crime is common? OK, never mind.

lovmuffin -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 11:31:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Tazzy are you a shooter? Ever fired a shotgun? Do you know anything about them? Do you know what smooth bore means? Yes, yes, yes, yes. I can even hunt with a bow. [;)] In fact, growing up, after my father retired from the military, we had a few acres of land, enough room for a horse, cow, a few pigs, rabbits and chickens, as well as a small plot to grow vegetables. So, yes, I am also aware of nightly predators. And we never required a semi or fully automatic weapon to take care of them. thanks for clearing up the topic of your experience. I think you missed a key point I made. I said a five (5) round magazine, the same number my model 70 bolt action holds. I agree with what has been said, other than reducing the number of times I have to reload, why does anyone need a 10, 15 or 30 round magazine? They sure are not an aid in hunting, unless you have a hell of a lot of porters to carry out that many dead deer (I dont know of any state that has more of a five deer limit per season) So that leaves just one use for large capacity magazines. And Friday we saw that reason. I admitted earlier that I have a few high cap mags, and why. I am a survivalist and firmly believe that, looking at the shape of the world today, a major crisis is coming. I also have a larger than average supply of ammo. I think the present accepted term is "prepper" However, at the various shooting ranges I have used in the different places I have lived, they usually had an ample supply of large round mags for people to use on the range. I also suffer from bipolar disorder and ptsd, which if you believe the media propaganda makes me a risk for going postal. I have only been receiving treatment for those two conditions since 2002, I have owned firearms since I was thirteen, when my father gave me a bolt action mouser. This year I turned 51. Do the math, what do you think the risk factor is? Oh, one more thing that I brought up in a thread in which I complained about not being able to buy an operational tank. Pay the right fees to the federal government and you can go and buy a M134 7.62 mm mini gun capable of firing 6000 thousand rounds a minute. Someone pro gun please explain why in the hell anyone would need one of these? Next who could afford the ammo to feed the damn thing? Well done jlf2961. Excellent well thought out posting and research on this thread. However, if you think a major crisis is coming then why wouldn't you think there might be a good reason for someone to have high cap mags for the weapons they own ? High cap mags were banned from future manufacture with the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban. The prices skyrocketed on some but on AK and AR mags and some others didn't go up in price much because the market was so saturated with them. Of course we all know the ban sun set. Also if something like a restriction on high cap mags were to pass, would you suggest that existing ones not be grandfathered in as they were with the Clinton ban ? Even so, as you have stated in other posts here, it's simple enough to fabricate gun parts. What's going to make a high capasity magazine ban work if its simple enough to stamp those out ? If existing ones are grandfathered in then what's the point ? I would only disagree with you on the restriction of high capacity magazines and I believe they would be more difficult to control than the guns they're used with. I would also think in a crisis situation, global or otherwise a Mini Gun might come it handy. I don't know how you would afford all that ammo to practice much with it unless you have the disposable income.

Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 11:36:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Something sort of like that is done in Norway, maybe al-Aswad will tell you about it, he is expert in that business. We require club membership for handguns, with regular attendance. We require club membership, sport shooting team membership or non-transient hunting party membership for rifles, again with regular attendance. We require the same for shotguns, minus attendance, except if you live in the few areas where bears are a potential hazard, or live on a farm, in which case you can get a permit without being organized. We do not permit private ownership of full auto firearms, nor of "destructive devices", nor of anything of caliber 50 or higher. You cannot carry. Period. Exceptions exist by dispensation, normally given to foreign dignitaries' bodyguards, current members of the Contingency Platoon, current members of FSK/HJK (special forces rangers), and until recently the current members of HV016 (national defense rangers; a domestic covert unit). Military on active duty are also permitted to carry while on duty, but they must remove a vital part of the weapon when on leave and hand it to their CO. In short, anyone with a legitimate need for rapid response with a firearm can apply to carry. Regular police must radio in to obtain the codes to the gun safes in the trunks of their cars; codes are reset after each use. Handguns must be kept in a locked, armored suitcase during transport. Rifles must be kept within sight during transport, without ammo. It is permitted to leave a rifle unattended for a brief amount of time if it is unavoidable, but a vital piece must be removed and brought with you. All weapons are double stamped and registered in a central database. Police periodically perform inspections of the firearms to see that they remain without unlicenced modifications, and in the process inspect the gun safe. All firearms must be stored in a safe that should ideally weigh more than 700lbs, but it can weigh less if it is secured with four bolts into the floor and four bolts into the wall. The safe must have been tested by a professional locksmith to ensure a certain resistance to skilled attempts at lockpicking, or replicated exactly to spec from a type that has been tested to an even higher standard and verified at a design level. Ideally, the safe also has a code lock. The safe must be stored inside the home itself. An alarm is mandatory. If you store a lot of guns in your home, the alarm must be of a type that alerts police automatically, with an internal battery and with fallback to GSM. Every safe must be resistant to cutting with tools or a torch for a specified minimum duration of time, well beyond the average response time of the police. There is one range that permits full auto fire, but I think you have to be a reservist to be allowed to use those weapons. Otherwise, you have to participate in one of the two sanctioned militias, which permit use of full auto fire during some of their exercises, usually with an accurized G3 assault rifle. As noted, you cannot legally own a weapon with full auto fire as a private citizen, except by dispensations that are about as common as consistently honest politicians with good sense. So, yeah, we're "kind of" restrictive about it up here. IWYW, — Aswad.

Page: << < prev 6 7 [8] 9 10 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

6.640625E-02