Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 7:04:45 PM)

Starting this thread to keep the one about the Massacre in Connecticut from going to far off the point, one mentally unbalanced individual killing people for no good reason.

Now for some facts:

quote:

More than 53,000 people have been murdered in Mexico in the last six years—most of them by a variety of pistols, rifles, and assault weapons owned by Mexican drug cartels. While the exact number of firearms in circulation in Mexico eludes everyone, we know tens of thousands are seized every year by Mexican authorities.

These facts and figures might lead one to believe that it’s easy for cartels to buy or otherwise acquire guns in Mexico. In fact, Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws on the entire planet—as well as one of the planet’s highest annual death tolls as a result of gun violence.
source


Now before you anti-gun fanatics start saying that the drug thugs are just going across the border into the states to get their firearms, I might as well point out that these cartels are using a lot of automatic weapons, meaning they primarily use the "spray and pray" style of shooting.

quote:

On the other hand, you might look at this little set of facts.

In Sandpoint, North Idaho, where I live for most of the summer, it's extremely easy to buy a gun. You can buy them at stores and at gun shows, or just at yard sales. Yet there are almost no gun deaths in Bonner County, Idaho.

The last ones of note in North Idaho were done by the FBI at Ruby Ridge, and that's a different story./snip

On the other hand, in my beloved Los Angeles, where I live most of the year, there's extremely strict gun control. It's a real project to buy a gun.

Here, we have gang shootings and death by guns on a terrifying scale. In my native city of Washington, D.C., the same goes: Strict gun control and lots of shootings.

The same goes for Chicago. Strict gun control and a lot of killing.

source


Another example of a country with strict gun control laws is Jamaica, very strict laws and a very high rate of gun violence.

Of course there is Israel, very lax gun laws and very low rate of gun violence.

And people who are pro-gun are not monsters who care nothing for human life or the damage a gun can do. I am a combat vet, and I know full and well what a weapon in the right or even wrong hands can do.

I can also say that if I had to, I could go to the nearest large city, spend a day or two and come home with a few untraceable weapons that may or may not be available legally.

Of course, you could look at the rampant use of firearms in the various civil and tribal wars going on in Africa. I can guarantee that those killers did not go down to the local sporting goods store and buy those weapons.

I own sporting weapons and some collectables. There is one weapon that I have been trying to get in my collection for a number of years, a Soviet Era Dragunov sniper rifle. They are illegal to import into the United States and have been for a number of years. The only ones legally allowed to be sold in the United States are those that got here before the ban.

Recently, at a gun show I was told that I could buy one, but the price was 3 times the market price, which to me indicated the weapon would be illegal.

The point, anyone can get a gun at any time, anyplace for the right price.



TheHeretic -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 7:20:10 PM)

I heard a reference on the radio saying that the Bushmaster was found in the trunk of the car, and was never used. If that is correct (initial facts are still confused, I think), do you think that will delay for a moment efforts to claim this a tragedy that could have prevented, if only the assault rifle ban had been renewed?



BamaD -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 7:39:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I heard a reference on the radio saying that the Bushmaster was found in the trunk of the car, and was never used. If that is correct (initial facts are still confused, I think), do you think that will delay for a moment efforts to claim this a tragedy that could have prevented, if only the assault rifle ban had been renewed?

why let a little thing like that get in the way.



BamaD -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 7:42:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Starting this thread to keep the one about the Massacre in Connecticut from going to far off the point, one mentally unbalanced individual killing people for no good reason.

Now for some facts:

quote:

More than 53,000 people have been murdered in Mexico in the last six years—most of them by a variety of pistols, rifles, and assault weapons owned by Mexican drug cartels. While the exact number of firearms in circulation in Mexico eludes everyone, we know tens of thousands are seized every year by Mexican authorities.

These facts and figures might lead one to believe that it’s easy for cartels to buy or otherwise acquire guns in Mexico. In fact, Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws on the entire planet—as well as one of the planet’s highest annual death tolls as a result of gun violence.
source


Now before you anti-gun fanatics start saying that the drug thugs are just going across the border into the states to get their firearms, I might as well point out that these cartels are using a lot of automatic weapons, meaning they primarily use the "spray and pray" style of shooting.

quote:

On the other hand, you might look at this little set of facts.

In Sandpoint, North Idaho, where I live for most of the summer, it's extremely easy to buy a gun. You can buy them at stores and at gun shows, or just at yard sales. Yet there are almost no gun deaths in Bonner County, Idaho.

The last ones of note in North Idaho were done by the FBI at Ruby Ridge, and that's a different story./snip

On the other hand, in my beloved Los Angeles, where I live most of the year, there's extremely strict gun control. It's a real project to buy a gun.

Here, we have gang shootings and death by guns on a terrifying scale. In my native city of Washington, D.C., the same goes: Strict gun control and lots of shootings.

The same goes for Chicago. Strict gun control and a lot of killing.

source


Another example of a country with strict gun control laws is Jamaica, very strict laws and a very high rate of gun violence.

Of course there is Israel, very lax gun laws and very low rate of gun violence.

And people who are pro-gun are not monsters who care nothing for human life or the damage a gun can do. I am a combat vet, and I know full and well what a weapon in the right or even wrong hands can do.

I can also say that if I had to, I could go to the nearest large city, spend a day or two and come home with a few untraceable weapons that may or may not be available legally.

Of course, you could look at the rampant use of firearms in the various civil and tribal wars going on in Africa. I can guarantee that those killers did not go down to the local sporting goods store and buy those weapons.

I own sporting weapons and some collectables. There is one weapon that I have been trying to get in my collection for a number of years, a Soviet Era Dragunov sniper rifle. They are illegal to import into the United States and have been for a number of years. The only ones legally allowed to be sold in the United States are those that got here before the ban.

Recently, at a gun show I was told that I could buy one, but the price was 3 times the market price, which to me indicated the weapon would be illegal.

The point, anyone can get a gun at any time, anyplace for the right price.

Could be that the Dragunov is now hard to get ahold of and your source thought he could squeeze some extra profit out of you.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:01:26 PM)

Now this takes real balls.
Starting a pro- gun thread on this of all days.
While I question,with reason ,your sense,I tip my hat to your incredible sense of chutzpah.

As to your thread,nice little collection of cherry picked "facts"
Lets be clear,are you claiming that the preponderance of guns present,right now,in Mexico aren't ones originally purchased in border states ?
If so it's not just your chutzpah that's incredible [8|]
You go from there to looking at the number of gun deaths in some place called Sandpoint ,North Idaho....and (again with the chutzpah) compare it,frequency wise,to major metropolitan cities such as Los Angeles,Chicago and Washington D.C..


There really isn't any point in continuing with this,but I would like to add one little salient fact:

For years and years I ,and every other American, has been sold the pablum that we(the universal we) have nothing at all to fear from responsible,law abiding gun owners.
That just might in fact be true.....but apparently we have everything to fear when it comes to those law abiding citizens guns.
These guns were all purchased and owned legally by the mother of the shooter,who also doubles in this little drama as victim #!,apparently this "responsible,law abiding" citizen thought she needed to own to semi automatic handguns and a Bushmaster AR-15 semi automatic rifle.
No,we had nothing to fear from this "law abiding"citizen ,though her fucking guns sure proved dammed dangerous.



searching4mysir -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:25:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now this takes real balls.
Starting a pro- gun thread on this of all days.
While I question,with reason ,your sense,I tip my hat to your incredible sense of chutzpah.

As to your thread,nice little collection of cherry picked "facts"
Lets be clear,are you claiming that the preponderance of guns present,right now,in Mexico aren't ones originally purchased in border states ?
If so it's not just your chutzpah that's incredible [8|]
You go from there to looking at the number of gun deaths in some place called Sandpoint ,North Idaho....and (again with the chutzpah) compare it,frequency wise,to major metropolitan cities such as Los Angeles,Chicago and Washington D.C..


There really isn't any point in continuing with this,but I would like to add one little salient fact:

For years and years I ,and every other American, has been sold the pablum that we(the universal we) have nothing at all to fear from responsible,law abiding gun owners.
That just might in fact be true.....but apparently we have everything to fear when it comes to those law abiding citizens guns.
These guns were all purchased and owned legally by the mother of the shooter,who also doubles in this little drama as victim #!,apparently this "responsible,law abiding" citizen thought she needed to own to semi automatic handguns and a Bushmaster AR-15 semi automatic rifle.
No,we had nothing to fear from this "law abiding"citizen ,though her fucking guns sure proved dammed dangerous.



He isn't talking about just totals, Mike. Statitiscally speaking, fewer crimes are committed with gun (per capita) in states with lax gun control laws than in those with strict gun control laws.

CT actually has pretty strict gun control laws. Schools have a no tolerance policy for weapons of any kind on the premises. These laws do nothing to stop someone intent on committing a crime. All they do is make those people who are their targets sitting ducks.



jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:38:47 PM)

Current market price for a full Dragunov kit is about 3500, they are rare, but there are some around. Many were bought thinking it would be a good hunting rifle, so it was a sportsmen's market.

In truth, it is a bit awkward to handle, and has a really strange scope mount, IMO. When I was a sniper in the Army, I was given the chance to get proficient with one, and it does take some getting used to. The sport modified AK is much better for sportsmen, although I still prefer either my bolt action mouser or my model 70. My opinion is that if you dont hit what you aimed at, the ability to immediately squeeze off another shot is not going to help you much.

As for the assault weapon ban, it bans the manufacture of semi-automatic rifles like the Ruger Mini14 and the AR-15. The term automatic is misleading, since in essence an automatic rifle fires rounds continuously while the trigger is depressed. However weapons made before the ban are still legal to own, sell and resell.

What that means is that all these firms like Red Jacket in Baton Rouge LA which modifies and customizes AR and AK weapons so they buy in bulk, will have a large number of weapons in stock for sale.

And if you really want one when the end market supply dries up, there will be ways to get one, or one with full auto capability. As I stated in the opening post, Mexico has the strictest gun control laws on the planet with the exception of Greece (which requires a psych eval before purchasing ANY firearm) and it is estimated there are more assault weapons and full auto weapons in the hands of the cartels than are in the US.

Then of course there is the famous sten gun.

This weapon was developed by the British in WW2 for their commando troops. So simple in design that it could be made in a blacksmith shop, but mass produced in WW2 in machine shops all over the country. Prior to the establishment of the nation of Israel, the freedom fighters there were making these remarkable weapons in kibbutz all over Palestine, using primitive machine tools for the time.

Now do a google search on sten gun templates OR plans.

A sten is so cheap to make that they could be made by machine shops in the US and sold for $200 at a profit.

Finally, assault weapons and crime, actually assault weapons are rarely used in the commission of crimes except for the rare instance such as Columbine, Virginia Tech and what happened today.

The logic that banning assault weapons to prevent crime is equal to the logic of banning private cars to prevent drunk driving or car accidents.

By the way, the reason the AK 47 is so prevalent in the world today is because they are just as simple as the sten to make, done in any machine shop with the proper equipment, and the technical drawings are available as a .pdf file on the internet.

Another point that needs to be considered, the 15, 20 and 30 round magazines for these weapons. Here I would agree to eliminating these completely. Ten round mags are available for just about any assault style rifle and that is plenty for hunting. My model 70 holds five rounds, is bolt action and it is plenty.

The large magazines are actually over kill, because if you hunting with an assault style weapon, you are not going to kill five or six animals before you start field dressing the animal. Hunting today is not like buffalo hunting in the 1800's. You are not going to kill fifty or 60 animals before you start processing them.

The ONLY reason for large magazines is if you have an full auto weapon and you want to have a mad minute.

In the incident today, if the shooter was limited to a five round mag, the death toll would have been a lot lower. People could have escaped while he reloaded, unless he was ultra fast with the mag change.

However, a mag change for an AR15 and AK is basically the same, drop the empty mag from the weapon, grab the next mag, tap it on something hard to make sure the rounds are seated in the mag and will feed properly and then slam it in the weapon. In the military we tapped the mags against our helmets.

There are steps that can be done that would lower the body count, but none really that would eliminate the problem, not unless EVERY firearm on the planet was melted down, every tech drawing for fire arms were eliminated from the internet and have ATF agents in every shop that has machine tools, private and commercial, and eliminate the supply of the metal stock that is used to manufacture firearms.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:41:37 PM)

Thats just so much pro gun NRA bullshit.
More guns do not equal more safety.
More guns simply means more gun violence.
And as far as your per capita statistic,that is still skewed by the fact that folks in large metropolitan cities have many more interactions with each other,hence more violence,that's
just human nature.
Folks living out in the middle of nowhere much more rarely come in contact with each other when compared with folks in big cities.
It's cherry picked statistics,as the man said there are lies and than their are dammed statistics....Jeff chose the ones that he hoped would further his point.
Were I of a mind too(not on this night,no way no how) I could collect statistics that say just the opposite,as it is I will rely on common sense,more guns,more violence.



Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:43:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now this takes real balls.
Starting a pro- gun thread on this of all days.
While I question,with reason ,your sense,I tip my hat to your incredible sense of chutzpah.



I think it's most appropriate.

Don't let the truth kick you in the ass Mike on your way to the safety of gun free zones.



jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:52:25 PM)

Mike, you better do a little research into the source for the weapons in Mexico rather than spout bullshit that all the MILITARY class weapons came from the border states.

quote:

The Mexican government and the media have consistently blamed the U.S. for the vicious drug war in Mexico that has resulted in over 35,000 deaths since late 2006. A diplomatic cable released by Wikileaks will disappoint them, as it shows that 90 percent of the heavy weapons used by the drug cartels come from Central America. The strength of the drug cartels is more attributable to the Mexican government’s inefficiencies than America’s gun laws or consumption of narcotics.

According to the published documents, U.S. diplomats in Mexico believe that these weapons, such as grenades and rocket launchers, are being stolen from the armed forces of Central American countries. They arrive in Mexico via the 577-mile Guatemalan border that only 125 Mexican immigration officials guard. Hezbollah and the Colombian FARC terrorist groups also deserve blame, as there are increasing indications that they are in bed with the drug cartels and are providing them with training, financing and possibly arms.
source



Of course, being the anti-gun person that you are, you completely gloss over the fact that Israel have very lax gun laws and very few gun related deaths.

quote:

The massacre on the island of Utøya is certain to lead to a security review, with particular stress on how Anders Behring Breivik obtained his weapons. Norway already has some of the toughest gun laws in the world, but they were apparently easily circumvented by the killer.

A licence is required to own a gun, and the owner must provide a written statement saying why he or she wants one. Many categories of guns, including automatics and some powerful handguns, are banned from sale altogether.
source


Now tell me, please how a complete ban on the sale and ownership of assault weapons prevented 84 deaths on Utøya island in Norway?



jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 8:59:03 PM)

I am going to add something here, which makes my point very well.

Mike, do a google search on Charles Whitman.

Please remember, he did NOT have an assault weapon.



Kirata -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 9:22:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lets be clear,are you claiming that the preponderance of guns present,right now,in Mexico aren't ones originally purchased in border states ?

If so it's not just your chutzpah that's incredible [8|]

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States...

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008... This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

Source: Stratfor

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

You go from there to looking at the number of gun deaths in some place called Sandpoint ,North Idaho....and (again with the chutzpah) compare it,frequency wise,to major metropolitan cities such as Los Angeles,Chicago and Washington D.C..

In 2004, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents. The same conclusion was reached in 2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control’s review of the extant studies...

Comparison of "homicide and suicide mortality data for thirty-six nations (including the United States) for the period 1990-1995" to gun ownership levels showed "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate. Consistent with this is a later European study of data from 21 nations in which "no significant correlations [of gun ownership levels] with total suicide or homicide rates were found."

Source: Harvard

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

There really isn't any point in continuing with this,but I would like to add one little salient fact:

Me too: Bullshit is bullshit.

K.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 9:24:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now this takes real balls.
Starting a pro- gun thread on this of all days.
While I question,with reason ,your sense,I tip my hat to your incredible sense of chutzpah.



I think it's most appropriate.

Don't let the truth kick you in the ass Mike on your way to the safety of gun free zones.

Don't kid yourself Yachtie,please check the more recent polling data concerning reasonable gun control laws.
Don't let the door kick you in the ass on your way to the ever decreasing free gun zones .
Must be nice to strap on your pair of balls ,eh?
I go about my day,every day in complete serenity minus the need for some false bravado on my hip,can you say the same ?



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 9:30:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am going to add something here, which makes my point very well.

Mike, do a google search on Charles Whitman.

Please remember, he did NOT have an assault weapon.

No ,all he had was an unassailable position.
There was no need to google,but there is a need to ask what your point here is ?
You bring up a shooter who managed to get himself,what for a shooter,was a most enviable position.....are these the circumstances that we have been dealing with recently ?
Again apples do not compare to oranges....no matter how hard you try to do so.



Kirata -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 9:35:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Must be nice to strap on your pair of balls ,eh?

That statement should suffice to squelch any optimisism about your ability to consider the facts dispassionately and evaluate them on their merits.

K.



jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 9:36:30 PM)

Kirata,

The anti-gun proponents seem to have this idea that stricter gun control laws would eliminate these incidents.

quote:

o According to the latest available data, those
who use guns in violent crimes rarely purchase
them directly from licensed dealers; most guns
used in crime have been stolen or transferred
between individuals after the original purchase.
source



I thought that mike would have taken the initiative to prove that the weapons used by Mexican drug cartels were purchased in border states, however you pretty much eliminated that.



AlittleCrazy098 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 10:03:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Thats just so much pro gun NRA bullshit.
More guns do not equal more safety.
More guns simply means more gun violence.
And as far as your per capita statistic,that is still skewed by the fact that folks in large metropolitan cities have many more interactions with each other,hence more violence,that's
just human nature.
Folks living out in the middle of nowhere much more rarely come in contact with each other when compared with folks in big cities.
It's cherry picked statistics,as the man said there are lies and than their are dammed statistics....Jeff chose the ones that he hoped would further his point.
Were I of a mind too(not on this night,no way no how) I could collect statistics that say just the opposite,as it is I will rely on common sense,more guns,more violence.


Forgive me as I don't really know you, but I have to say that jlf is presenting a much better argument than you.

Firstly, it's obvious that jlf knows way more about this issue than you because he's speaking from, not just a logical point of view, but also an educated one. By contrast, all you do is throw talking points instead of coming back with a subtle point based on facts and expertise.

Also, jlf is using a moral argument and a logical argument while all you do is speak from an emotional perspective. For instance, he has created several post with very interesting facts that I didn't know myself while all you do is call him "skewed, bullshit, and cherry picking."

And lastly, jlf has responded to every one of your points with an educated answer while you choose to argue his points with only emotional responses as shown above.

So, if your going to talk about a political issue, then it would be wise to say something of substance as opposed to sounding like a blubbering idiot. As a great wise man once said "if you going to say something then make sure you know what you're talking about or else you'll look like an idiot." Unfortunately for you that has already happened. In fact, I have ready many of your post over the passed several months and I have to say that you're not as bright as you try to make yourself look.





TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 10:10:01 PM)

Pro-Gun tools love to pretend that gun crime in areas with strict laws is a result of the laws...

Without taking the logical step to assume that the LAWS ARE THE RESULT OF THE ABUNDANCE OF CRIME.

Herp until you derp.

Also, classy to make this thread today. NRA 4 lyf.

Also, ponder the poverty levels and socioeconomic demographics in those areas. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, HOW DO THEY WORK?



jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 10:31:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am going to add something here, which makes my point very well.

Mike, do a google search on Charles Whitman.

Please remember, he did NOT have an assault weapon.

No ,all he had was an unassailable position.
There was no need to google,but there is a need to ask what your point here is ?
You bring up a shooter who managed to get himself,what for a shooter,was a most enviable position.....are these the circumstances that we have been dealing with recently ?
Again apples do not compare to oranges....no matter how hard you try to do so.


True, he had a good position.

My point was the body count.

He was using, by today's standards, obsolete rifles, still managed a high body count.

And more to the point, he did not need an assault weapon with a large capacity magazine to do what he did., and I should point out, that with my model 70, which has a five round magazine, and is a bolt action, which means a shooter cannot just pull the trigger, a determined individual in a less than perfect position, could do just as much damage, given the average police response time.

Another point about Charles Whitman, the Austin police did not have adequate weapons to reach him on the tower, they had to borrow weapons from a sporting goods shop in the area, again not assault weapons.

You are arguing the weapon, or as one has put it, the tool, is the problem. It is not the gun that is the problem, it is, again, the individual with it.

Lee Harvey Oswald used a poor quality weapon to kill JFK, and managed to get three shots off in a remarkably short time with a bolt action rifle at a moving target. Professional shooters have duplicated that series of shots, and only accomplished it after a few tries. Again, it took one determined individual with the desire to kill to commit a violent crime.

The DC sniper used a Bushmaster .223 rifle without a scope in his crimes, 10 dead, 3 others critically wounded. His weapon was equipped with a reflex sight. A reflector or reflex sight is a generally non-magnifying optical device that allows the user to look through a partially reflecting glass element and see an illuminated projection of an aiming point.

Again an individual determined to kill.

A military or law enforcement sniper uses a scope which is a magnifying device to acquire and hit targets. My longest shot when in the army was just over 1100 meters, which at the time was pretty long. Today, shots have been taken and confirmed kills at over 2000 meters. These are rifles based on sport weapons, usually bolt action.

The calibers for most sniper rifles are .300 Winchester or .338 lapua which is a longer range round.

Now my point for giving that information, which I have made already.

An individual with the determination to kill is going to do the job with whatever weapon he can get his hands on. High tech or low tech, it is not going to matter.

Finally one other google search for you. Look up how General John Sedgwick was killed, then look up "muzzle loader."



jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/14/2012 10:32:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

Pro-Gun tools love to pretend that gun crime in areas with strict laws is a result of the laws...

Without taking the logical step to assume that the LAWS ARE THE RESULT OF THE ABUNDANCE OF CRIME.

Herp until you derp.

Also, classy to make this thread today. NRA 4 lyf.

Also, ponder the poverty levels and socioeconomic demographics in those areas. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, HOW DO THEY WORK?



Gun control has already been mentioned in the thread about the shooting, I thought it would be wise to get it out of that thread and made independent.



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