RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 4:55:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I remember in Psych 101 in college my professor saying that every person alive has some form of mental disorder, it is the severity that is the problem.


I'd like to see data for that.




tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 8:26:03 AM)

quote:

We treat mental illness with drugs.


Most are effectively treated that way. Your solution would be.........




LizDeluxe -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 8:48:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

We treat mental illness with drugs.


Most are effectively treated that way. Your solution would be.........


.... that we more closely monitor the cases where that does not effectively treat the issue. I believe I clearly said "when that doesn't work".




tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 8:50:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

We treat mental illness with drugs.


Most are effectively treated that way. Your solution would be.........


.... that we more closely monitor the cases where that does not effectively treat the issue. I believe I clearly said "when that doesn't work".


Ok.. hmmm... people are effectively treated... then go off meds because they "feel better". Happens a lot. How do we effectively closely monitor those people?

Im all for treatment. I am also for respecting individual rights.




TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 9:20:51 AM)

I just wanted to sit back a bit, and get a good night's sleep before responding to the points being raised.

Kirata; thanks for the description of what is on the slope. It isn't something that fits comfortably into who and what we are as a nation. You're right that nobody can see these specific things coming, or pick out the people who might snap in the completely wrong direction

JLF; thanks for the explanation of the mod note. I was a bit confuzzled by that, since I didn't see the topic as problematic.

Meatcleaver; please feel free to start a "wonders of socialism" thread, and I'll either ignore it there, or stop by to drop a turd in the delusional punchbowl, as the mood may strike me.

More generally, I've also heard the, "everybody is crazy, sometimes," theory, but without much in the way of support. I've heard too that at any given time, up to 25% of the population is suffering from sort of diagnosable psychological abnormality. What this suggests to me is not that we ought to pour trillions into the pockets and coffers of the mental health industry, but that maybe we need a more rational baseline of normal.

Tucson, Colorado, the Jewish daycare in LA, yesterday's horror, and likely the next one, it was known in advance, by someone in every case, that the killers weren't right. The guy who decided he wanted a soft target full of Jews had been in an institution at the order of his state, not all that long before. Even when those closest to the individual know there is a serious problem, it is way too hard to force the issue.

Is there a better balance point between the individual liberty of a seriously mentally ill person, and the need for society to minimize the risks they may pose?




meatcleaver -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 9:41:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:


Why not get rid of all state security then, if that is the case?


Because a bunch of asshats regularly confer on themselves the "right" to feel "safe", at the expense of my liberties.




That reply doesn't make sense.




meatcleaver -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 9:43:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Meatcleaver; please feel free to start a "wonders of socialism" thread, and I'll either ignore it there, or stop by to drop a turd in the delusional punchbowl, as the mood may strike me.



What has socialism to do with gun fetishism, the glorification of violence and child masacre?

just wondering.




TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 9:57:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Meatcleaver; please feel free to start a "wonders of socialism" thread, and I'll either ignore it there, or stop by to drop a turd in the delusional punchbowl, as the mood may strike me.



What has socialism to do with gun fetishism, the glorification of violence and child masacre?

just wondering.



You tell me, since you were the one bringing it in to begin with, but do it elsewhere, please.

quote:

meatcleaver:
Guns make efficient killing possible so the solution is obvious since no one with vested interests is going to turn an highly individualised and atomised society into a stable collective society.






jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 10:18:08 AM)


quote:

meatcleaver:
Guns make efficient killing possible so the solution is obvious since no one with vested interests is going to turn an highly individualised and atomised society into a stable collective society.





start a thread on that topic and then I will ask you question




Aswad -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 10:31:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

That reply doesn't make sense.


Sometimes, it's my fault when some posters have difficulty comprehending what I'm writing.

In this particular instance, that doesn't seem to be the case.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 10:38:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


In this particular instance, that doesn't seem to be the case.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



[:D]

Worked for me, and I'm just an un-edjumicated, working class, sort.




tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 10:42:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

That reply doesn't make sense.


Sometimes, it's my fault when some posters have difficulty comprehending what I'm writing.

In this particular instance, that doesn't seem to be the case.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



He seems to have that problem with many.




erieangel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 10:54:54 AM)

quote:

What this suggests to me is not that we ought to pour trillions into the pockets and coffers of the mental health industry, but that maybe we need a more rational baseline of normal.



Nobody wants "trillions" as you claim, poured into the mental health industry. But consider this, Heretic, every year for the past 20 or so years the amount of money that has poured into the system of health and human services has been slashed. In PA alone, funding has been slashed so much that programs, effective programs have had to be cut or eliminated. For a year, I did respite care. I had a kid suffering from aspergers once a month, so that he could get away from family, do some quiet activities and not be bothered by his older brother who has autism and is a constant screamer. The boy thrived while in respite. His depression lifted for weeks at a time after spending time away from the home, his grades improved and he was learning how to use a computer. We went to movies, bowling, the beach, to dinners, shopping and to a haunted Flag ship Niagara at Halloween. The ship was a non-starter as the kid refused to go below decks where all the truly fun stuff was. We went all over the county for free activities and even to ones that cost me a lot. I was paid $100 for a weekend and usually spent between $90 and $125 each weekend. I spent $150 one weekend for 4 of us to go to an amusement park and the kid refused to go any rides except the marry go round and the train. That was just admission. Food, games, gas all came out of my pocket. But he always to have had some fun at least, and they were activities his parents were going to take him on because they couldn't take his brother out in public at all. Anyway, I don't do respite any longer because funding for that program has ended. And btw, I have to pay taxes on that $100 a month and can not claim any of the expense.

When I was in treatment, I was in a theater troop operated by the same agency I work for now. That theater troop no longer exists. Being involved with that little troop helped me to recovery from my mental illness. It gave me the confidence to try new things, to not be afraid of failure, told me it was OK to make mistakes and helped me to improve my short term memory. And the cost was for that of 2 staff people, limited costumes and sets. Most of our staging came from a local college that donated their own theater and sets for our use once a year so that we could perform our play. When the theater troop closed, it was because the agency closed down the entire arts program, except for the little 8 member chorus they continued. You see, one of the board directors has a daughter and the absolute only thing they could get her to do was be involved in that chorus, so the board member pulled all of the strings he needed to keep it. He didn't care about the people who were solely about the theater troop, or the larger number who all they did was pottery, or paint, or jewelry-making.

Today, private, for-profit insurance companies are making things so much worse. The majority of human services money now goes directly to an insurance company and the community care agencies have to meet strict guidelines, have their paperwork in order, do billing properly and follow all protocols the insurance company has in place. I spend more time on my job figuring out what is "billable" than truly helping my guys.

Not only does money for human services--treatment for mental health and mental retardation--need to be increased, it needs to be given back 100% to the counties. This is allow counties to determine what their population needs and how to deliver the services. It will allow agencies such as mine to do what it is does best--help people recover.




jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 11:08:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


In this particular instance, that doesn't seem to be the case.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



[:D]

Worked for me, and I'm just an un-edjumicated, working class, sort.



works for me too, and I am an ex army airborne grunt, aka boonie rat (top kick was a nam vet) and worse yet, I am also a country boy, raised on a cattle ranch




TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 11:30:24 AM)

That's nice, Erie, but I'm talking about people with serious mental health problems that rise to the level of being public health concerns. You quoted that I said we need a better baseline, but seem to have missed it, all the same.

Lots of people do the big brother/sister thing without ever a penny of financial recompense, or needing a grant of taxpayer funds to be the continuous operating budget, instead of, perhaps, an initial seeding. Please, don't go off about hard it is to be an in-poverty homeowner with a brand new car on one thread, and then try to complain about taxes that will be fully refunded to you on another.




erieangel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 11:48:06 AM)

What I earned last year in respite service actually increased my tax liability. Some people get a large refund, more than they paid into withholding. I don't. And I don't complain about it either.

You seem to have missed my point. The money for mental health treatment has been drying up. It is the fault of both parties. Mental health isn't a priority in this country as it should be. The military isn't even adequately addressing the mental health needs of our vets.

We once had a solid social contract with the people who volunteered for service. It went like this: Serve you country and your country will care for it if you are injured or in need of mental health services.

Today that contract is more like this: Serve your country, you might be killed and that's awful but there are more of you poor young men and women we can send into harms way. You might be injured, you might lose a limb and while we are sorry for that, you might not get the proper medical treatment to make you whole (I have a neighbor who lost a leg in Iraq, 3 years later he still does not have a prosthetic). You may also suffer from PTSD or some other mental health issue. Too bad, you will likely find you are on your own.




gungadin09 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 11:54:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
That's nice, Erie, but I'm talking about people with serious mental health problems that rise to the level of being public health concerns.


Like Aspergers?

I don't know what the answer is. Banning guns won't work. Forcing treatment on at risk individuals? Is probably unfeasible, and certainly morally questionable. So what do you do?

I hate to say it, but this feels like the lesser of several evils. Maybe school shootings is just the price we have to pay.

Pam




metamorfosis -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 11:55:37 AM)

Goddammit.

Pam





TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 12:01:13 PM)

It's a tough one, isn't it, Pam? No good answer, in any direction.




metamorfosis -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 12:05:51 PM)

There sure isn't, but thanks for the thread. It makes me think.

Pam




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