RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is

RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/16/2012 12:18:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Fair enough, but I'm wondering what the sticking point is. "Little". And the connotative implications of "only", but not its denotative function, of course. IWYW, — Aswad.

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 7:34:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Fair enough, but I'm wondering what the sticking point is. "Little". And the connotative implications of "only", but not its denotative function, of course. IWYW, — Aswad. Ok. Universal healthcare is such a vast issue, though, that I'd categorize kidney dialysis centers, and research on new treatments for any particular disease including cancer, as "only little pieces," too. I saw an article in the last few days (I can't guarantee the accuracy, but it sounds about right) that placed annual US healthcare spending as being a bigger amount than the entire annual GDP of France. These "little," issues, no matter how life and death they might be for the affected and their loved ones, will only matter to some. The "big," issues in the discussion, as I look at at, are those that will impact every individual, regardless of specific conditions. Speed and quality of access. Containment of bureaucracy and institutional bloat. The determination of the end of life protocols that everyone will be subject to. Mental health is a big deal, but placed on that table, it gets dwarfed.

jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 7:46:46 PM)
Here we go again heretic. I agree with everything you just posted. Now I wish to add: State and federal funding for mental health care in the US is the lowest in the world, at least in the sources I have found. If anyone can find different, please post the numbers and world rating the US has. Insurance companies put a limit on how much they will pay out for mental health care, which makes sense, I may be wrong, but I am unaware of any mental health disorder that is curable.

kdsub -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 7:47:54 PM)
quote: Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment In all reality...No... Those in daily contact do not have the training to determine if the illness is dangerous to others and determine if this danger outweighs the persons individual rights. But what we can do is force their registration...allocate enough money to develop and man the databases necessary to keep legal weapons out of their hands. Butch

Notsweet -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 8:05:05 PM)
jlf, I absolutely agree that we need more funding, but in your sources...I find it hard to believe our spending is the lowest in the world. Perhaps in the reporting world. I can't imagine that some of the world's countries spend nickel one on it. quote: State and federal funding for mental health care in the US is the lowest in the world, at least in the sources I have found. If anyone can find different, please post the numbers and world rating the US has. Insurance companies put a limit on how much they will pay out for mental health care, which makes sense, I may be wrong, but I am unaware of any mental health disorder that is curable. But we don't give mental health even the backhand, and I wonder why that is. Fear? There's got to be a major overhaul of the system. I worked in it for a bit. There are lots of problems with the system now, and we're going to have to make some hard choices. Not easy if all our leaders are afraid to discuss it, and once it gets politicized, we're screwed.

Marini -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 8:10:25 PM)
quote: ut we don't give mental health even the backhand, and I wonder why that is. Fear? There's got to be a major overhaul of the system. I worked in it for a bit. There are lots of problems with the system now, and we're going to have to make some hard choices. Not easy if all our leaders are afraid to discuss it, and once it gets politicized, we're screwed. [sm=applause.gif] I am enjoying what you have to say Notsweet! You are a breath of fresh air.

tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 8:17:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment In all reality...No... Those in daily contact do not have the training to determine if the illness is dangerous to others and determine if this danger outweighs the persons individual rights. But what we can do is force their registration...allocate enough money to develop and man the databases necessary to keep legal weapons out of their hands. Butch Is reality, we already do with those who are a danger to themselves or the community at large. And a spouse or family member can initiate contact with either the health care community or local police to start that treatment.

kdsub -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 9:02:29 PM)
I don't believe it is addressed tazzy...in reality it very seldom happens that families report abnormal behavior to authorities... First families are reluctant to go to authorities and even when they do local authorities or even more reluctant to force treatment… And even when treatment is forced there is little supervision in the majority of cases to assure patients are taking their medications once released. I am not saying it does not work in some cases but only that it would be more effective with limited resources to address the shortcomings of states that are mandated to keep the databases the FBI and licensing authorities depend on when licensing weapons. I am all for states funding both mental illness care and gun ownership licensing databases but hell try and pass a tax to do it now days… I’m always the realist. Butch

jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 9:11:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I don't believe it is addressed tazzy...in reality it very seldom happens that families report abnormal behavior to authorities... First families are reluctant to go to authorities and even when they do local authorities or even more reluctant to force treatment… And even when treatment is forced there is little supervision in the majority of cases to assure patients are taking their medications once released. I am not saying it does not work in some cases but only that it would be more effective with limited resources to address the shortcomings of states that are mandated to keep the databases the FBI and licensing authorities depend on when licensing weapons. Ideally and I am all for states funding both mental illness care and gun ownership licensing databases but hell try and pass a tax to do it now days… I’m always the realist. Butch You have a point. All too often the police hear, "well he has always been a bit strange."

BamaD -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 9:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment In all reality...No... Those in daily contact do not have the training to determine if the illness is dangerous to others and determine if this danger outweighs the persons individual rights. But what we can do is force their registration...allocate enough money to develop and man the databases necessary to keep legal weapons out of their hands. Butch Is reality, we already do with those who are a danger to themselves or the community at large. And a spouse or family member can initiate contact with either the health care community or local police to start that treatment. This is one we can legitimatly blame on Reagan, the "reforms" made during his administration made it very hard to force treatment and institutionalization on the mentally ill leading to much of the homeless problem and unstable people like this running around making life more difficult and dangerous for themselves and everyone else.

tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 11:06:15 PM)
A 72 hour hold.. some states a 96 hour one.. if they are a danger to themselves or others. And many families dont report it because then they become responsible for the bill.

jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/17/2012 11:24:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl A 72 hour hold.. some states a 96 hour one.. if they are a danger to themselves or others. And many families dont report it because then they become responsible for the bill. Yup, and if there is no sign of dangerous behavior out the door they go. there is no treatment on that stay either, only observation.

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/18/2012 12:02:23 AM)
'Their' registration? They being whom? The Damien Echols and Jessie Misskelleys of the world? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment In all reality...No... Those in daily contact do not have the training to determine if the illness is dangerous to others and determine if this danger outweighs the persons individual rights. But what we can do is force their registration...allocate enough money to develop and man the databases necessary to keep legal weapons out of their hands. Butch

jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/18/2012 12:14:04 AM)
quote: The Backlash Against ‘I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother’ A word of warning to any mother who writes about her child’s problems: you just might get blamed for them. This lesson was made clear by the dramatic arc of a blog post by one Liza Long, who in describing the challenges of her seriously disturbed son garnered sympathy and praise for breaking the code of silence and shame around mental illness. Long’s post went viral, but soon one observer, Sarah Kendzior, took the time to read Long’s entire blog and found some not entirely sympathetic statements from the beleaguered mom, like “I quit! Let the state take care of you and your compulsive inability to stop poking people.” Kendzior also noted that Long and her husband had been involved in a messy divorce, which, while not entirely germane to the question of how to handle a mentally ill child, did not exactly put Long in a favorable light. source Interesting story

GotSteel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/18/2012 6:20:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I don't believe it is addressed tazzy...in reality it very seldom happens that families report abnormal behavior to authorities... First families are reluctant to go to authorities and even when they do local authorities or even more reluctant to force treatment… And even when treatment is forced there is little supervision in the majority of cases to assure patients are taking their medications once released. The federal database for mental illness that you're proposing already exists and you've already explained why it doesn't work better: quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub In all reality...No... Those in daily contact do not have the training to determine if the illness is dangerous to others and determine if this danger outweighs the persons individual rights. I will agree that lowering the bar for who ends up in the database and forcing better state compliance with it have the potential to help, at least some but at the end of the day friends, family, co-workers, school administrators and so forth not dropping the dime on these people seems to be the big problem.

VideoAdminChi -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/21/2012 2:29:18 PM)
FR, Per Alpha, please continue this discussion on All things gun control go here . Thank you for your participation. Moderator VideoAdminChi

VideoAdminChi -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/23/2012 10:33:22 AM)
On this thread, there were a few posts about gun control that have been pulled for TOS violations. I have pulled another post about gun control and unlocked this thread. Future posts referencing gun control will be pulled as off topic. The topic here is mental health as a public health issue.

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/23/2012 10:42:07 AM)
Thank you, Chi.

vincentML -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/23/2012 11:25:31 AM)
Glad to see this thread restored, Rich [:D]

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/23/2012 11:30:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 You have a point. All too often the police hear, "well he has always been a bit strange." And there is a big problem with that, JLF. Kirata brought it up, right at the beginning of the thread. Some people ARE a bit strange. Anybody who knows me will tell you I'm a little bit weird. I myself will tell you that I'm so wyrd, I spell it with a "y." Before we even start looking at the possibility of some kind of mandated treatment, we need to chop the definition of mental illness down into something manageable, or, to view it differently, expand our vision of what is completely normal variation.

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