RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is

RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 12:26:41 PM)
I am going to add something here, it fits this topic as well as the gun control topic, and it is something that absolutely no one seems to be looking at. Since Columbine until 2011 there had been 28 mass shootings, average just over two a year. Now lets look at 2012. There have been sixteen mass shootings this year. What has changed this year? I saw one blog entry that blamed it on the Mayan prophecy, but other than that no one has come up with a reason for the dramatic jump in incidents.

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 12:37:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: metamorfosis There sure isn't, but thanks for the thread. It makes me think. Pam Thank you, Pam. That's my usual intent, but it doesn't always work out that way.

LadyPact -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 12:49:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel What I earned last year in respite service actually increased my tax liability. Some people get a large refund, more than they paid into withholding. I don't. And I don't complain about it either. You seem to have missed my point. The money for mental health treatment has been drying up. It is the fault of both parties. Mental health isn't a priority in this country as it should be. The military isn't even adequately addressing the mental health needs of our vets. We once had a solid social contract with the people who volunteered for service. It went like this: Serve you country and your country will care for it if you are injured or in need of mental health services. Today that contract is more like this: Serve your country, you might be killed and that's awful but there are more of you poor young men and women we can send into harms way. You might be injured, you might lose a limb and while we are sorry for that, you might not get the proper medical treatment to make you whole (I have a neighbor who lost a leg in Iraq, 3 years later he still does not have a prosthetic). You may also suffer from PTSD or some other mental health issue. Too bad, you will likely find you are on your own. Exactly where did you get the information for the highlighted above? Have a look at the way the military has historically ignored PTSD alone. Talk with people who will let you know the atmosphere in the military about mental health issues being a career ender. The military is just as bad, if not worse, than the public sector in being behind the times regarding mental health. It's not just the funding, it's the stigma. Which leads in for discussion for Rich's original. I get the intent. The problem is that you also have to be concerned about those who would abuse it. We came away from the barbaric method of institutionalizing people because we didn't know how to treat various mental health issues. Are we going to evaluate everyone that somebody else considers depressed? How does one determine if someone is dangerous or not?

jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 12:58:32 PM)
There is something else people seem to have forgotten since Columbine. Mass shootings have an earlier origin in the United States. I am sure that at least some of us remember where the term "Going Postal" came from. Let me enlighten those who are too young to remember. Beginning in 1983, there have been a series of workplace shootings involving postal employees shooting coworkers and managers. The blame in the early years was the antidepressant Prozac. Between 1986 and 1997, more than forty people were gunned down by spree killers in at least twenty incidents of workplace rage. All anyone in the government has done to prevent these incidents is to publish a list of warning signs.

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 1:11:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 All anyone in the government has done to prevent these incidents is to publish a list of warning signs. Not quite true, JLF. The Post Office also instituted a zero-tolerance policy for workers to carrying firearms on the job. The leading cause of death on that job was (and still is) dog attacks, but the workplace thing was getting more play in the news.

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 1:18:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact The problem is that you also have to be concerned about those who would abuse it. We came away from the barbaric method of institutionalizing people because we didn't know how to treat various mental health issues. Are we going to evaluate everyone that somebody else considers depressed? How does one determine if someone is dangerous or not? And it was when we closed those institutions in response to public awareness of what they were, that the wino's, hobo's, and bums came to be joined on our streets by the mad. It's more popular to blame Reagan, I know, but Ken Kesey deserves his place in the homeless hall of fame. We went from one extreme, to another.

jlf1961 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 1:22:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 All anyone in the government has done to prevent these incidents is to publish a list of warning signs. Not quite true, JLF. The Post Office also instituted a zero-tolerance policy for workers to carrying firearms on the job. The leading cause of death on that job was (and still is) dog attacks, but the workplace thing was getting more play in the news. The latest incident in a postal service facility involved a former worker, she had not worked there in some time. I think the more interesting question is what is making 2012 so different? Has something in the environment triggered a rash of psychotic breaks? Is the economy driving people to acts of desperation? Has violent mental breakdowns hit epidemic proportions? Thoughts, theories, comments

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 1:25:59 PM)
I don't know, JLF, and I'm not quite ready yet to address this subject with crazy-ass, but fun, theories. Now, I get to go to the mall, but I'm not feeling the need to be armed when I do.

Aswad -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 2:13:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic That's nice, Erie, but I'm talking about people with serious mental health problems that rise to the level of being public health concerns. You say "rise", which acknowledges an awareness that these are things that can be nipped in the bud. Universal mental health care takes care of that, before force even becomes necessary. IWYW, — Aswad.

GotSteel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 3:05:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Mental health, as a public health issue. Instead of focusing all our attention on what tool fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't we do better to talk about the owners of those hands? The most common cause of killing sprees is some guy who decided to go on a killing spree. Why can't we talk about both?

tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 3:07:10 PM)
We have to talk about both. One without the other doesnt solve a thing.

GotSteel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 3:09:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl We have to talk about both. One without the other doesnt solve a thing. I disagree with that.

tazzygirl -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 3:11:41 PM)
Ok.. lets put it this was. Dealing with the mental health issue will take care of the crazies out doing the killing, but not the one's intentionally doing it who arent crazy. Dealing with the gun issue only makes these mentally unstable people, and those who arent unstable, find other methods.

cordeliasub -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 3:53:26 PM)
I have bipolar disorder. When I was diagnosed, I was given a treatment plan that involved regular psych appointments, regular appointments with a psychologist, and medication. I can tell you that all three of those prongs are necessary. Most recognized mental illnesses (not talking personality disorders, but mental illness) are biological in nature, so just as one cannot meditate and granola away diabetes, neither can one yoga his or her way out of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. I think that we need to have a serious shift in how we view these diseases. My ex takes insulin every day, and no one questions his ability to function in society and no one is afraid of him. And yet, if you have ever seen a diabetic with extremely high or low sugar, they can be pretty volatile. However, if I mention to someone that I have bipolar disorder, many times I can instantly see the shift in their expression. I've learned to kind of take a shoulder shrugging, f-their-ignorance approach to this kind of ignorance, but many people don't. If we want people to seek treatment, we need to work on the stigma. That being said, when I was diagnosed with a disorder that I knew could have an impact on those around me, I felt that it then became my RESPONSIBILITY to comply with treatment. There are side effects, it does change things, and relearning how to be creative was....tough. But because I am not selfish, I think about the way NOT being treated will affect others. I am not sure how in the world it would work, but I firmly believe that someone who will not comply with treatment, especially if they have already been involved in criminal or violent behavior as a result, should be compelled. I am also loathe to have insanity as a mitigating factor in a crime that someone commits while knowingly remaining untreated. In my mind, they are accountable for whatever happens the moment that they refuse to treat their illness.

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 4:48:40 PM)
Buying into any form of the 'crazy people are dangerous' meme seems less than useful (except for politicians looking to scapegoat, and media looking to scaremonger). Out of all the mental conditions from which the human race suffers, most of them have a low correlation with attempting to kill people. Except this one: http://www.policyalmanac.org/health/archive/suicide.shtml

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 5:31:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad You say "rise", which acknowledges an awareness that these are things that can be nipped in the bud. Universal mental health care takes care of that, before force even becomes necessary. IWYW, — Aswad. Sometimes it can be, Aswad, and sometimes the affected individual isn't ever going to come back to the world or their loved ones. Yes, a mental health concern left untreated, or treated wrong, can get worse. I don't think that declaring a chronically depressed person to be disabled, and giving them just enough poverty maintenance support to keep a crappy roof over their head, crappy food on their table, and lots of time to brood while watching a parade of all the stuff they don't have, on their crappy TV, is going to be an effective course of treatment. We can do better. Universal healthcare would certainly be an important step, but that is a discussion where mental health is only one little component. If we view mental illness from a public health point of view, we might find an avenue that gets us someplace more quickly. I don't think anyone is interested in re-opening all the old homes for the deranged, or re-hiring Nurse Ratched. We would need a new model, and a better vision. I don't know where all the lines need to get drawn.

Aswad -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 6:44:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Sometimes it can be, Aswad, and sometimes the affected individual isn't ever going to come back to the world or their loved ones. I know. The former is more common than the latter, though, given access to adequate mental health care. quote: Yes, a mental health concern left untreated, or treated wrong, can get worse. Usually gets worse. quote: I don't think that declaring a chronically depressed person to be disabled, and giving them just enough poverty maintenance support to keep a crappy roof over their head, crappy food on their table, and lots of time to brood while watching a parade of all the stuff they don't have, on their crappy TV, is going to be an effective course of treatment. We can do better. Agreed. quote: Universal healthcare would certainly be an important step, but that is a discussion where mental health is only one little component. Disagreed. [:D] quote: I don't think anyone is interested in re-opening all the old homes for the deranged, or re-hiring Nurse Ratched. We would need a new model, and a better vision. I don't know where all the lines need to get drawn. I tend to think the better vision is to provide access to care. Locking people up is locking people up, even if the cage is gilded, after all. IWYW, — Aswad.

slvemike4u -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 6:54:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Mental health, as a public health issue. Instead of focusing all our attention on what tool fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't we do better to talk about the owners of those hands? The most common cause of killing sprees is some guy who decided to go on a killing spree. Very often, these tragedies come from people we already know to be mentally ill. More money for treatment isn't going to be the only approach we need to take, if we want to address it in a way that will make a difference. Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment? Can we mandate the use of medication? Or is the slope simply too slippery to risk? The determinants of the vast majority of violent crimes are cultural and economic. Cases like these are anomalies. And psychological hindsight is cheap. We always find people saying the perpetrator was "weird," or that he was a loner, or that there had been behavior problems at school before -- or that he was always quiet and never got into trouble! -- but you can't predict anything from that. Nobody sees these things coming. And there's rarely much to go on even in hindsight. I suppose we could enact a law making it mandatory for a citizen to submit to some sort of psychiatric proctology if anybody says he's weird, or if he pulls a prank at school, and perhaps especially if nobody thinks he's weird and he never gets into trouble (those are the ones you have to watch, you know). But I wouldn't call that a slippery slope. I'd call it the bottom. K. So basically you are in favor of doing nothing about everything ? Does that about sum it up ? "We can not do anything about guns" That is an accurate paraphrasing of your position,right ? Now you are here pretty much advocating doing nothing about the burgeoning mental health crisis (we do have an awful lot of combat vets coming home these days) in this country. Might I ask if there is any social issue that would move you from your apathetic position ? If there is such an issue/crisis care to tell us what it is ?

TheHeretic -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/15/2012 7:08:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Universal healthcare would certainly be an important step, but that is a discussion where mental health is only one little component. Disagreed. [:D] Fair enough, but I'm wondering what the sticking point is. On the gilded cage, you have mail.

GotSteel -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (12/16/2012 3:30:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ok.. lets put it this was. Dealing with the mental health issue will take care of the crazies out doing the killing, but not the one's intentionally doing it who arent crazy. Dealing with the gun issue only makes these mentally unstable people, and those who arent unstable, find other methods. Agreed.

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