RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is

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Real0ne -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 4:30:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I am well aware of that and Yes you are misunderstanding my point AND I've had my doubts about 9/11 since 9/11, AND I'm aware of all the conspiracy theories surrounding it and many other things...I also, have seen more "information" about the theories and the debunked responses than I care to remember. Lets face it we have been having these theories tested, argued and retested since Ive been on Collarme. 91 1on this board? no they havent. you aint seen nothing debunked You want something to debunk just lemme know LOL

Yachtie -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 4:32:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns, is 'Why are we so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only one which could seriously yield an answer - guns?' I agree. Join the NRA today. [:D]

PeonForHer -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 4:34:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie I agree. Join the NRA today. [:D] You are a card and no mistake, Yachtie. You know that's not what I meant. [:D]

Yachtie -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 4:41:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie I agree. Join the NRA today. [:D] You are a card and no mistake, Yachtie. You know that's not what I meant. [:D] I know exactly what you meant. No matter, being armed is an answer many simply do not comprehend.

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 5:03:29 PM)
Because this is reality and not a 2 dimensional comic book. There is no 'only one' factor, there is no 'guns-be-gone' magic wand. Superstitous finger pointing only makes complex problems worse. Sooo... Why are you so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only approach which could seriously yield an answer... that being rationional analysis of all the factors? quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns, is 'Why are we so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only one which could seriously yield an answer?

PeonForHer -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 5:18:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Sooo... Why are you so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only approach which could seriously yield an answer... that being rationional analysis of all the factors? Nup, not playing, Powergamz. The history of politics and political change in the modern era is stuffed full of examples in which both the question and the answer are bleeding obvious and, for me, this is one of them. I can't be arsed with a lot of irrelevant questions and answers that are designed to go nowhere. And 'desperation' has never, and will never, be one of my feelings about the issue for the excellent reason that it's not the society that I live in. It's yours.

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 5:37:21 PM)
Except that only one of us is trying to derail useful discourse on a complex matter with demands that rational analysis of all factors be ignored in favor of 'obvious', magical, single-solution thinking. Name a single one of those political changes that were solved by your suggested absolutist blame games... You can't, because the real world doesn't work that way, ever. So that 'designed to go nowhere' charge belongs entirely to you. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Sooo... Why are you so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only approach which could seriously yield an answer... that being rationional analysis of all the factors? Nup, not playing, Powergamz. The history of politics and political change in the modern era is stuffed full of examples in which both the question and the answer are bleeding obvious and, for me, this is one of them. I can't be arsed with a lot of irrelevant questions and answers that are designed to go nowhere. And 'desperation' has never, and will never, be one of my feelings about the issue for the excellent reason that it's not the society that I live in. It's yours. As posted previously: [image]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D40krRFoEuY/UOdXYrwF2pI/AAAAAAAADIg/Bx2iB9s22hE/s1600/guns+don%27t+kill+people.jpg[/image]

PeonForHer -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 6:14:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Except that only one of us is trying to derail useful discourse on a complex matter with demands that rational analysis of all factors be ignored in favor of 'obvious', magical, single-solution thinking. It's a paradoxical thing, Powergamz, but it's a time-honoured theme in politics: a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place. Suddenly, all the 'I'm a real, straight-shootin', real life livin', to hell with your pissant pinko faggot books, yessirree!' crap is out of the window. Nutty gun fans abruptly drop the John Wayne image and, rarely for them, try on the bearded intellectual thing instead. It's hilarious! No offence, but like I said, I'm not playing. [;)]

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 6:29:44 PM)
Your insistence on shouting down logic followed by all those strawmen where you claim that other people say and believe the exact opposite of what they do, is very much 'playing'. I'll leave you to it. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Except that only one of us is trying to derail useful discourse on a complex matter with demands that rational analysis of all factors be ignored in favor of 'obvious', magical, single-solution thinking. It's a paradoxical thing, Powergamz, but it's a time-honoured theme in politics: a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place. Suddenly, all the 'I'm a real, straight-shootin', real life livin', to hell with your pissant pinko faggot books, yessirree!' crap is out of the window. Nutty gun fans abruptly drop the John Wayne image and, rarely for them, try on the bearded intellectual thing instead. It's hilarious! No offence, but like I said, I'm not playing. [;)]

PeonForHer -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 7:25:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Your insistence on shouting down logic followed by all those strawmen where you claim that other people say and believe the exact opposite of what they do, is very much 'playing'. I've just plonked in a bit of logic that you wanted pushed aside, Powergamz. Run with it or forget it - to repeat, it's not my society.

Kirata -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/21/2013 11:36:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place. Let's test people's "intellectual plane" with some data: Guess which year Parliament's confiscatory gun acts were passed. England and Wales, Homicides 1995-2009 Year Homicides /100,000 2009 615 1.1 2008 657 1.2 2007 774 1.4 2006 758 1.3 2005 764 1.3 2004 868 1.5 2003 904 1.7 2002 1047 2.0 2001 891 1.7 2000 850 1.6 1999 766 1.5 1998 750 1.5 1997 739 1.4 1996 679 1.3 1995 745 1.5 Of course the answer is 1997, as any idiot can plainly see. K.

Yachtie -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/22/2013 5:27:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer a simple problem, with its simple solution, Yup. That woman in Georgia utilized the most simple solution when the perp came at her and her children. Cost effective too. I most heartily agree.

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/22/2013 5:29:22 AM)
@K Of course... now cross reference that to the years that English panic over the 'dangers' of asylum seekers (immigrants) set in... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom_since_1922#Refugees_and_asylum_seekers

Real0ne -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/22/2013 7:12:04 AM)
we have a constant influx of immigrants here

vincentML -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/22/2013 8:31:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place. Let's test people's "intellectual plane" with some data: Guess which year Parliament's confiscatory gun acts were passed. England and Wales, Homicides 1995-2009 Year Homicides /100,000 2009 615 1.1 2008 657 1.2 2007 774 1.4 2006 758 1.3 2005 764 1.3 2004 868 1.5 2003 904 1.7 2002 1047 2.0 2001 891 1.7 2000 850 1.6 1999 766 1.5 1998 750 1.5 1997 739 1.4 1996 679 1.3 1995 745 1.5 Of course the answer is 1997, as any idiot can plainly see. Your statistics are for "Homicides by any means" The statistics for "homicides by guns" are quite diffeerent: In England & Wales, annual firearm homicides total 2009: 41 2008: 38 2007: 53 2006: 59 2005: 50 2004: 73 2003: 68 2002: 81 2001: 96 2000: 73 1999: 62 1998: 49 1997: 59 1996: 49 1995: 70 In England & Wales, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is 2009: 0.1 2008: 0.1 2007: 0.1 2006: 0.1 2005: 0.1 2004: 0.1 2003: 0.1 2001: 0.2 1999: 0.1 1998: 0.1 1997: 0.1 1996: 0.1 1995: 0.1 1992: 0.07 It does seem that the 1997 Law did not make much difference. If I have the correct statistics it seems the Law was not needed. But the rate is considerably lower than in the US, isn't it? SAME SOURCE

Powergamz1 -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/22/2013 9:11:19 PM)
Media and public hysteria reflected in political bandaid laws, is based on perceptions, not on what is actually happening. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place. Let's test people's "intellectual plane" with some data: Guess which year Parliament's confiscatory gun acts were passed. England and Wales, Homicides 1995-2009 Year Homicides /100,000 2009 615 1.1 2008 657 1.2 2007 774 1.4 2006 758 1.3 2005 764 1.3 2004 868 1.5 2003 904 1.7 2002 1047 2.0 2001 891 1.7 2000 850 1.6 1999 766 1.5 1998 750 1.5 1997 739 1.4 1996 679 1.3 1995 745 1.5 Of course the answer is 1997, as any idiot can plainly see. Your statistics are for "Homicides by any means" The statistics for "homicides by guns" are quite diffeerent: In England & Wales, annual firearm homicides total 2009: 41 2008: 38 2007: 53 2006: 59 2005: 50 2004: 73 2003: 68 2002: 81 2001: 96 2000: 73 1999: 62 1998: 49 1997: 59 1996: 49 1995: 70 In England & Wales, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is 2009: 0.1 2008: 0.1 2007: 0.1 2006: 0.1 2005: 0.1 2004: 0.1 2003: 0.1 2001: 0.2 1999: 0.1 1998: 0.1 1997: 0.1 1996: 0.1 1995: 0.1 1992: 0.07 It does seem that the 1997 Law did not make much difference. If I have the correct statistics it seems the Law was not needed. But the rate is considerably lower than in the US, isn't it? SAME SOURCE

TAFKAA -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/25/2013 1:24:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie I know exactly what you meant. No matter, being armed is an answer many simply do not comprehend. It's not that people fail to comprehend it, it's that they understand it's the exercise of a juvenile power fantasy. I'm Australian - I fully understand the effects of gun control and how successful it is. I also understand the psychology of gun ownership and weapon escalation. What gun fanatics fail to understand are the fundamentals of human psychology and how their own ownership is not motivated by safety concerns but by the psychology of power which a gun evokes.

Kirata -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/25/2013 3:42:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TAFKAA I also understand the psychology of gun ownership and weapon escalation. What gun fanatics fail to understand are the fundamentals of human psychology and how their own ownership is not motivated by safety concerns but by the psychology of power which a gun evokes. These are nothing but contemptible claims based on mind-reading. K.

ElChupa -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/25/2013 3:47:04 AM)
The moronic Hairy Reed, leader of the senate... has not passed a budget in four years? Your Dear Leader can't get his own kind to agree on one? Isn't that one of their prime jobs? See, leftists love laws. It's their equivalent of whacking off to a porn movie. They don't care if the laws hurt people. They certainly are not interested in enforcing laws already on the books. Passing laws make them feel... well, like they just had an orgasm. Remember, to understand leftists is to understand they don't give a fuck about the children or any of that nonsense they spew. Logic? Forgettaboutit. Reason? Hardly. Constitution? BURN IT! It's about POWER folks. Their control over YOU. Sheep love that. Maybe you do too.

TAFKAA -> RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is (1/25/2013 5:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: TAFKAA I also understand the psychology of gun ownership and weapon escalation. What gun fanatics fail to understand are the fundamentals of human psychology and how their own ownership is not motivated by safety concerns but by the psychology of power which a gun evokes. These are nothing but contemptible claims based on mind-reading. K. Not at all. It's just an ugly aspect of the gun debate which gun fanatics refuse to acknowledge, let alone combat. All of the arguments assembled to defend rabid gun ownership just don't make sense. Period. They're nonsense masquerading as argument and when you smash them apart with logic and reason, they all come down to one thing: "It's my right to own a gun!" People own guns because guns give them a sense of power which they lack in their lives. This root cause is why gun ownership is most fervent in the less educated classes. Lacking the means to exercise power or to gain it - they settle for the possibility of purchasing it. It's a reaction to fundamental powerlessness that mirrors the mindset of the conspiracy theorist. And it's no coincidence that conspiracy theories and rabid gun advocacy go hand in hand. Indeed, many of these people commingle the two into conspiracy theories ABOUT GUN CONTROL. Gun control is like vaccination. By reducing the level of weapon availability in the general population, you limit the damage people can do to each other. Basically the vast majority of people are creatures of passion and impulse. Putting a gun in easy reach of such people basically means that people use guns to manage interpersonal conflicts on multiple levels. From dealing with a burglar, to dealing with a loved one who breaks up with them. And the truth is, these people aren't mad, aren't insane, aren't special or damaged. They're people just like you and me. Gun advocates like to pretend that firearm murder only occurs because people are mentally ill or disturbed. This is nonsense. Firearm murder occurs because of the easy access and availability of a firearm and there are times in everyone's life when they have dark impulses. Under normal circumstances, these can pass - but when a firearm is in easy reach - they don't. They find action in murder of others or self.

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