Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


vincentML -> Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 11:30:24 AM)


This is a spinoff from the mental health thread regarding mass killers. Adam Lanza is dead, but suppose he were not, as James Holmes, the Aurora theatre killer is not. I am presuming Lanza was severely mentally depressed, as indications suggest Holmes was.

What is the proper judicial punishment? Both acted knowingly and with planning, apparently. Their actions seem to meet the legal test of sanity, and yet they did the unpredictable, unforgivable act with horrible consequences.

In another example, Andrea Yates drowned her five children and was deemed mentally ill, but the Jury rejected her insanity plea and sentenced her to life in prisonment almost with encouragement from the Harris County, Texas prosecutors. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/16/us/mother-who-drowned-5-children-in-tub-avoids-a-death-sentence.html

Anders Breivik, the mass killer of young people in Norway was found sane and guilty and “of murdering 77 people. He was sentenced to preventive detention, a special form of prison sentence, with a term of 21 years and a minimum of 10 years, with the possibility of extension for as long as he is deemed a danger to society; the media have noted that he is unlikely to be released until much later than 21 years, and will probably remain in prison for life.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Should the mental disarray of the killer be a mitigating factor to escape the death penalty even when the defendant is found to meet the tests of sanity? If imprisonment is the option should there be an attempt at psychiatric treatment? And if treatment is deemed successful in the future should the prisoner be returned to society in some fashion?

For example, John Hinckley, who attempted to assassinate President Reagan in 1982 was found not guilty by reason of insanity and confined to St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in Washington, D.C. Hinckley has been allowed visits to his mother’s home. Last year, he applied for an extention of time away from the hospital. “There is no evidence of him being dangerous, not a little bit, not marginal evidence,” Hinckley’s attorney Barry Levine said in October. He added government claims to the contrary are “shameful fear-mongering without any factual basis.”

Government lawyers, however, oppose the extension, arguing there are questions about the potential danger from Hinckley. “The proposal fails to adequately address the risks presented by Hinckley's clinical record, which reveals the persistence of several behaviors that universally have been recognized as risk factors for Hinckley's future violence,” lawyers argued in their court papers. “The hospital's motion should be denied.” What is your take on punishment for mentally disturbed killers? http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/11/john-hinckley-who-shot-reagan-seeks-longer-visits-away-from-hospital.html

Where is the line to be drawn between mentally ill mass killers and killers who are sentenced to death for a single murderous event? Should all mass killers forfeit their lives for those they took from their victims? Where is the line drawn between retribution and rehabilitation? Is rehabilitation even possible?




Aylee -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 11:37:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the proper judicial punishment?


Let's go a-Viking! 

Blood Eagle them. 

(I saw this the other night on some show about different ways to die.)

From Wiki:

It was performed by cutting the ribs of the victim by the spine, breaking the ribs so they resembled blood-stained wings, and pulling the lungs out through the wounds in the victim's back. Salt was sprinkled in the wounds.




Aylee -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 11:52:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the proper judicial punishment?


Crucifixion is also good.
Impalement on a short stake is a favorite as well.
Pressing.
Drawing and quartering.
Burning at the stake. (A bit smelly though.)
Slow immersion into a wood chipper. Feet first.

All of the above?  If you give me time, I am sure that I can find a way.




TheHeretic -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 11:54:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the proper judicial punishment?



Death. No need for the dramatics and screaming. Small caliber to the back of the head will work just fine.




ServosCor -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 12:09:41 PM)

 
     I doubt in our lifetime we will ever see proper judicial punishment for any type of  murder in this country.  (key word: proper).   I believe in an eye for an eye, and as effective as a bullet to the back of the head would be, I'd sure want more agnozing suffering for a bastard like this Lanza.  Just MHO.

      ~ servos cor ~




jlf1961 -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 12:21:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the proper judicial punishment?



Death. No need for the dramatics and screaming. Small caliber to the back of the head will work just fine.



The recent version of the twilight zone had an episode on this subject, the killer was hunted and killed by a relative of the victim.

I am not saying that this is a viable or acceptable solution, nor am I suggesting that it could be any form or solution.

I am just saying that the entertainment industry has made the punishment of murderers by rather bizarre ways, remember "The Running Man?"

Now for the scary part, some writer had to come up with the idea, and consider it "reasonable."




Aylee -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 12:27:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the proper judicial punishment?



Death. No need for the dramatics and screaming. Small caliber to the back of the head will work just fine.


Ahhhh.  You would offer mercy.  I fear I am not that good of a person. 




Kana -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 1:08:49 PM)

We shoot mad dogs, don't we?

This may sound flippant, but fuck, as far as I can see it, there are two other possible options:
1-Life in jail, no parole, which means we pay for these bastards for the rest of their life, and it runs something like 30-40 thousand a year per prisoner, a cost that's only rising...or
2-They get found insane, which means they might get set free, which is crazy. I mean fuck, they snapped once, which means they might snap again. WTF knows? I don't. And while I will admit that sure, there's a possibility that any person could go apeshit, grab a weapon and head to the local McDonalds at any time, these guys, these fuckers did it. And AFAIC, that means they could do it again.
So they should be locked up forever, which takes me back to the first answer

Because otherwise, holy shit, what about the Canadian doctor who killed his two kids, was found to be "insane," then was set free 46 months later?
How bout that shit?
Can you imagine being those kids mother, knowing that maniac is running around loose? Or their grandparents or any other loved ones? Cripes, I would be livid. Where's the justice for them? And where's the justice for those little kids?

And don't think I'm speaking out of my ass here. I served time in prison, real time, in a high security wing where the vast majority of the cons were rapists, armed robbers, and murderers, hard core class 1 felons (Moral of the story-never ever get got doing drugs with a judges daughter). There were some scary SOB's there, true sociopaths, as in the porch light was on but nobody was home. The didn't feel guilt, remorse, scruples, nothing for other human beings. That thing inside of us that separates us from the beasts, that connection to others in society, they didn't have it. And they never were gonna get it...and most, as in every one I met...had zero interest in gaining it.
And the idea that some of these guys were gonna be free, would walk the same streets that my sisters lived on, worked on, drove through-yeah, that freaked me the fuck out.
I walked into prison generally against the death penalty, walked out absolutely for it.

These cats,the ones who grab an AK and a Bane mask and head into a theater, a school, a mall, they need to pay

And don't come crying to me with some false sanctimonious BS about how killing people makes us worse as a society. We live in a culture where we kill people daily in wars, our governments and businesses despoil 3rd world nations,sell weapons to anyone and everyone who can pay, pollute the earth, drive cars that poison the atmosphere,spend trillions on weapon testing, have nuclear reactors that leek into the planet and will burn for thousands of years, support drug companies that perform experiments on people, wear beauty crap that's tested on animals, the list of our crimes goes on and on dwindling into infinity, we couldn't have any less moral authority...so this seems a real silly place to draw a line.
These bastards deserve to die. Society is better off w/o them.And frankly, I don't give a shit about their redemption. I don't give a fuck about them. I care for their victims. I care for the victims families. I care about justice.
So we should just do it. And be fucking quick about it. No Bundyesque years on death row, newspaper interviews, write a book nonsense.
Try em, sentence em, kill em.




ServosCor -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 1:19:07 PM)

Kana........

                Kudos!  I do love the way you think!  My only disagreement, if we could even call it that, is I would not be so merciful as to allow them a quick painless death.   Ever see the movie Law Abiding Citizen??  The second killer definately got his just desserts!  and I loved it!  Wonder what would happen if we were to televise a punishment like that.........and letting the scumbags know what was in store for them IF they ever got out of line???   


                    ~servos cor~




TheHeretic -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 1:22:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


I am just saying that the entertainment industry has made the punishment of murderers by rather bizarre ways, remember "The Running Man?"



That was the awful movie. The book was a much more frightening vision, and had nothing to do with the justice system.

The Constitution says "no," on cruel and unusual punishments, so as much as I think the justice for rapists and molesters ought to include vise-grips and propane torches, we don't do it that way. Just kill them.




vincentML -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:28:11 PM)

quote:

We shoot mad dogs, don't we?

Everybody seems to be in agreement so let me play devil's advocate. In the time of such horror we can safely agree that capital punishment is the desired prescription. Let me advance an unpopular view.

I am reminded of Jeffrey Dahmer. While a serial killer/cannibalizer/necrophiliac Jeffrey murdered 17 men and boys. You can't get much more fucked up in the head than Jeffrey. He was eventually sentenced to Life and then killed by a fellow prisoner. Before he was killed Jeffrey tried but failed to explain the compulsion that drove him to commit such obscene murders. He was found guilty and incarcerated.

The law, where the defense is still allowed, defines insanity as not knowing the difference between right and wrong when committing the killings. Putting that aside, how can we consider any of these killers sane? We don't really understand what drives them. Not even sure they are acting with free will. That is an issue no one seems able to address. Never mind sanity. What was the compulsion that drove them to their moral Evil?

So, why do we shoot mad dogs? Because it is convenient? And yet many mass killers are not executed. Why are juries so reticent in the jury room away from the time of community anger and sorrow? Are the juries telling us that the killer did not have self control of his/her actions? That he did not act out of free will? Did Andrea Yates, Adam Lanza, James Holmes act with free will? I find it hard to believe Dahmer acted with free will. Maybe that doesn't matter?

Btw, there seems to be agreement from what I hear on television that these people do not just snap.




JeffBC -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:35:40 PM)

I think about this differently Vincent. I honestly don't care about "justice" or "punishment" or "retribution" or "rehabilitation". What I care about is expedience. If you convince the that the rabid dog is likely to stay rabid then I'm all about "put it down". If you can show me a reasonably cost effective way to rehabilitate then I prefer that. It's as simple as "You are the weakest link" and getting voted off the island (the earth in this case).




tazzygirl -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:41:05 PM)

quote:

He was found guilty and incarcerated.


He plead guilty by reason of insanity.




TheBoyDownBelow -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:41:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

1-Life in jail, no parole, which means we pay for these bastards for the rest of their life, and it runs something like 30-40 thousand a year per prisoner, a cost that's only rising...or


Some raise an entire family on this kind of budget. It is about time to set an end to this corruption, before even thinking about proper punishment in general. Unfortunately prison in the US has become a business. <sarcasm>Hail to free market!</sarcasm>




tazzygirl -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:48:27 PM)

We can reduce costs by stopping the arrests and sentencing of pot users when no other crime is being committed.




JeffBC -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:56:45 PM)

But but... Tazzy! That'd be interfering with the free market!

Not only that but have you considered the impact to corporate bottom lines across the US if they were to lose their slave labor? How can you expect a good free market capitalistic system to function without slave labor?




tazzygirl -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 2:58:13 PM)

lol.. I find it funny people still claim we have a free market.




Kana -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 3:11:55 PM)

quote:

So, why do we shoot mad dogs?

Because it provides for the public safety and well being.
IOW, exactly why I am for killing these twisted fucks
quote:

Putting that aside, how can we consider any of these killers sane?

I could, would, and have argued (In law school, TYVM)that by it's very definition, in a modern moral society, any murder is an act of insanity, with very, very few exceptions, and even then, the line is uber blurry. I'm thinking of cases like, "He raped my sister," sorta stuff.
quote:

Before he was killed Jeffrey tried but failed to explain the compulsion that drove him to commit such obscene murders.

Because you can't logically explain or rationalize an illogical irrational act.

And really, and this is the critical question for me, even if you could explain it, does it remove the evil from the act?
Does it help us be sure that the same wingnut won't kill again?
Is it just?
And does it make society safer?

I don't think so, thus I am for frying the fucks.




Kana -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 3:21:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBoyDownBelow


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

1-Life in jail, no parole, which means we pay for these bastards for the rest of their life, and it runs something like 30-40 thousand a year per prisoner, a cost that's only rising...or


Some raise an entire family on this kind of budget. It is about time to set an end to this corruption, before even thinking about proper punishment in general. Unfortunately prison in the US has become a business. <sarcasm>Hail to free market!</sarcasm>

If you wanna do some really fun, seriously depressing reading, take a look into the growth of the modern american prison industrial complex. It's maybe the biggest growth industry in the country over the last 30-40 years, genuinely scary stuff. America, a free country has something like 7% of the worlds population, and 25% of it's prisoners, and those are (To a massive degree)disproportionately minorities, in particular black and hispanics.
Prisons form the backbone of many communities, the companies are multinationals in the best sense of the world, they act as slave labor camps (Where inmates get $1 a day), heck, they're so all American they are traded on the NYSE.
What could be better and righter than that!
Oh yeah, and not only that, but entire subcultures have developed out of and around them. Think prison gangs like the Black Guerrilla family, the Mexican Mafia, those friendly folks over at the Aryan Nation. Better yet, they've kicked in such wonderful cultural additions like baggy jeans (Cuz they take your belt when you go to prison, it's a style that came out of DC called jailin), and the one pant leg lifted up (Because the other is cuffed to the con next to you)-I mean, how can you not appreciate what the gifts they brought us, the happiness they've shared with the nation?




cordeliasub -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 3:40:43 PM)

Several years ago I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Because I take the medications as prescribed, try to live in a healthy manner, and comply with ALL treatment, most people would have no idea. If I decided tomorrow to go off all meds cold turkey, I am certain there would be repercussions of some sort to my brain. But you know what? Part of my responsibility as someone diagnosed with this type of illness is to comply with treatment. Many times those who are "insane" or mentally ill who commit crimes are not complying with ANY treatment. It is my opinion that their choice to reject treatment makes them responsible for whatever criminal acts they commit while untreated. In other words, I believe that mental illness should NOT be a mitigating factor in prosecution or sentencing. The people this man killed are dead because of him. He killed them in cold blood. I personally have no empathy and don't care if he was mentally ill. Mentally ill people do NOT have to walk around violent and psychotic - IF they comply with treatment. So no, I don;t see it as any kind of excuse that should be taken into account.




Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875