RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation

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vincentML -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 9:09:42 PM)
quote: Going by this thread, which is sadder than the shootings, violence and cruelty seems to be in your bones, quite simply; that's where these killings come from in the first place, I guess. It would seem so, Aswad, but these are emotional times and tempers are a bit frothy. Not at all sure about where these killings come from, tho.

TheHeretic -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 9:18:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Interesting thread vincent. I have noticed that very few people mention anything about the importance in having good mental health services or anything related to the importance of getting mental health services when you need them. If the young gunman had been in treatment, or maybe in an inpatient/outpatient treatment program, we might not be having these conversations. I often wonder about the "ramifications" of cuts to important services{especially mental health services}/access to mental healthcare, in the future. I wish some of those on the handgun bandwagon would also jump on the bandwagon for increases and easier access to mental healthcare services. hummmmm We've got you covered for that on another thread, Mari [:)] http://www.collarchat.com/m_4324711/tm.htm

Marini -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 9:22:00 PM)
Thanks Rich hard to wade through the 50 threads related to this tragedy. very few mention his age.... 20. What makes someone so young, so hateful and hopeless at 20 ? Troubled life of Adam Lanza From the article above, "He was not well known to neighbours, who describe him as being reclusive and troubled." humm red flag ya think? I have also heard mentioned his mother KNEW he suffered from mental illness.

Aswad -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 10:04:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It would seem so, Aswad, but these are emotional times and tempers are a bit frothy. That's usually the case before, during and after killing. quote: Not at all sure about where these killings come from, tho. Then have a look around the thread: people are looking to get some blood cause something went wrong. "Nobody" ever goes killing people because life is going right and is all singing and dancing with the kittens and fluffy bunnies in the meadows. One of the interesting things about drunk driving is, alcohol takes away the aversive and inhibitory things you've learned, but the good habits stay intact. If you normally drive in a way that requires high alertness or good reaction time or any of the other things you lose when you're drunk, then you'll be a horrendous menace if you're drunk behind the wheel. If you normally drive in a way that keeps a wide margin between your driving and your skills, then you'll be a lot less dangerous if you're drunk behind the wheel. If you're the sort that lashes out, that cries for blood when there's an injustice, then you're a lot more likely to do so in a situation where your good sense is gone. If you're the sort that truly loves life, the sort that curbs those drives, that can find it in you to be positive even when you're knee deep in the shit, then you're going to act a lot better when your good sense is gone. The spree killer in Norway was on about a grave injustice. I see grave injustices every day, the likes of which make my temper boil in a way this shooting can't hope to. The difference between me and him is, he saw killing those he considered the guilty parties as being the effective and acceptable solution, while I see that as a measure of last resort and one that should only be applied under a very specific set of conditions that aren't present. Heck, who knows. Maybe one day I'll snap, too. Nobody ever knows if they will. What I do know is, if I do snap, the odds of me engaging in that sort of mayhem are infinitesmal. And let's all be very happy about that, as I really don't want to consider the level of carnage that might result from such a thing, because that's another difference between me and him: I know this shit at a professional level, and ABB didn't. As I said, it's in the bones, but you're not born with it, and it's not immutable. That, incidentally, was the biggest lesson the Abrahamic tradition offered. I like to say quality must become a habit; US culture doesn't have it. IWYW, — Aswad.

Kana -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/15/2012 10:26:38 PM)
quote: Kana . . . social morality is not measured in dimes and quarters. What sort of people are we if we become executioners of the insane? Why not? We kill everyone else. quote: Are we a moral civilization? Nope. Never have been, never will be. We're a nation founded by venture capitalists intent on despoiling the new world, massacring the natives, built on slave labor, farmed by indentured servants and convicts, grown by robber barons, brought to empire by illegal wars (Turns out the whole Maine fiasco was a staged accident, kinda like the Tonkin Bay accident, and don't even get me started on the Mexican War-read Thoreau for that) and suppression/mass murder in the third world, despoiling our neighbors, barbarous killings in South America, Asia and the Middle East in the name of fighting communism,befriending dictators, teaching them to torture and imprison their own populations, raping the poorer countries of their natural resources, overthrowing democratically elected governments (look into how the shah came to power)-yeah, I think it's safe to say that our hands aren't clean and never have been-that any supposed moral stance we take is nothing but flagrant hypocrisy. quote: Or is death delivered too easily in our names both in our prisons and in foreign villages? Possibly quote: Down the slippery slope. We're already there, been there for a long long time, and ain't moving up anytime soon-see my comments re false sanctimony. quote: Now we are prepared to execute the mentally deranged? Yep. When the harm others, lots and lots of them, to a great degree, I have no moral problem with that. And if those were your kids,or that was your wife a freak like Bundy raped and committed necrophilia on, I suspect you'd feel otherwise. And you'd be right to do so. Some people got no excuse to keep breathing. quote: There is a difference between Evil and evil actions by the mentally deranged. The difference is a question of responsibility. Isn't Justice defined by responsibility? I think it is. Nope. I vehemently disagree. Justice is justice, and defines itself. You wanna do some small crime, steal from stores because you're a klepto, that's one thing, but when you go into a mall with a gun and start blasting, or when you rape loads of kids (Cuz you know, those poor pedophiles, they're just sick too. Once you start opening that door, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Or else nobody is evil, no actions are reprehensible and everything is acceptable), or start chopping up, coeds en masse, I don't care whether you claim to be responsible or not, I think you should be held accountable for your actions.You know, like the rest (Big banks obviously excluded here by some sort of strange political fiat)of us. Besides which, while I may agree with you in the idea that societies are judged by how they treat the least fortunate in their mix (In which case, all Americans are burning forever because it's utterly shameful how we treat our poor and mentally ill and pretty much always has been), these cats ain't unfortunate (And ain't it strange how most of them are middle class whitebread bitches)-they're mass murderers. quote: Execution will not make us safe. It will deprive us of the opportunity to study the 'monsters' and try to find predictors. And once again, you can't comprehend the incomprehensible or make sense of the insane. And you've already argued here that sometimes, frequently, there are no predictors-these cats just snap. In many ways, this is a pointless argument-in most cases like Connecticut, these guys are on a one-way ticket. They almost always commit suicide at the end. Their goal is simply to cause as much damage and take as many people as possible with them. The Colorado cat is far more the exception than the rule while the Swedish guy was trying to make some bizarre political statement (Which I just don't get. If he had a problem with Muslims coming into his country, why go into a school? Why not go into a mosque? At least that would have made some sort of sense or statement. Hell, considering the current sentiment against Muslims in many western nations, some media driven, some deserved, lots of people would have supported his cause if not his actions. For crying out loud, it's OK for them to behead us on camera, take hostages, roll bombs into churches- turnabouts fair play, or at least that would be their rationale), kinda like the Oklahoma City bomber or OBL his bad self. These guys are marching to the beat of an entirely different drummer than the mall/school shooter types. But all of em are equally responsible and accountable.

Kirata -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 12:46:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ServosCor My only disagreement, if we could even call it that, is I would not be so merciful as to allow them a quick painless death. That would require us to act like them. K.

Aylee -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 1:19:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Let's go a-Viking! The Vikings moved forward, while you want to move backward? No wonder the Vikings went from poverty to wealth, while the US went from wealth to poverty. Going by this thread, which is sadder than the shootings, violence and cruelty seems to be in your bones, quite simply; that's where these killings come from in the first place, I guess. But by all means have a ball. It's your country, and your future. Brew more anger and hate, lash out some more, set up a downward spiral you can't get out of, make enemies out of each other and get into the habit of death and cruelty. That's worked one way precisely so far: not at all. Sheesh. IWYW, — Aswad. What kind of enlightened response would you like me to have towards a murderer of children? I have no empathy for this person. I cannot and do not even want to try to understand why this person would do what he did. This person deserves no mercy. Rich would give him mercy. As I have said, I am not so nice. I want this kind of scum to die horribly. Neither of us get our desire as the man is now dead. Funny thing. when death is the penalty, recidivism goes WAY down.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 3:03:29 AM)
Those Vikings really knew how to party, didn't they? But yeah, I agree with Kirata, legal capital punishment must be swift and merciful, or we become the monster we are trying to destroy. About those monsters, comparing Dahlmer with Lanza is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they are both a type of fruit, as Dahlmer and Lanza are both mass murderers, but they differ by type. Dahlmer was a serial killer, which is psychologically very different from Lanza, a spree killer. Although I agree with Kana that these types of killers should be 'put down' I strongly believe that should be done only after a period of study. Because the biggest issue with these types of murderers is understanding why they do what they do. Without that understanding, we can't catch them, and we sure as hell can't stop them. I think most would agree that all though mass murderers have always been with us, our society is breeding spree and serial killers, and we need a better understanding of why that is. It's not just a breakdown of our mental health system, though that is a component. Its not just an issue of gun control, although that does tend to factor in with spree killers. I have done a certain amount of research on this issue, and the issue of why people become criminals in general. The thing is, rehabilitation does not work for criminals because they have never been habilitated. That is, they have not been raised to be a viable member of society. Our over crowded social structure is breaking down, just like too many rats in the maze. And if we don't fix those social problems that impact on our ability to raise viable adults, like child care, health care including mental health care, and education, these issues will only continue to get worse. That said, even in a Utopian society, a certain percentage of people would choose to be criminal. For these, it has nothing to do with inadequate parents or a deprived childhood, it has to do with who they are and how they were born. At this point, I don't see humans as being able to alter this type of criminals' psychological makeup in the least. My recommendation remains the same, study those they allow it, then kill them. I have very strong objections to allowing them to breed.

Kirata -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 3:24:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt the biggest issue with these types of murderers is understanding why they do what they do. Without that understanding, we can't catch them, and we sure as hell can't stop them. The common element with all these killers is that their crimes demonstrate a complete absence of empathy for others, the signature of a psychopath. We can screen for psychopathy. But not all psychopaths become mass murderers and serial killers. Some become Wall Street bankers. We don't know where psychopaths come from. Is it genetic? Are there environmental triggers? I certainly agree that finding out would be a good idea. K.

vincentML -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 3:34:34 AM)
quote: Heck, who knows. Maybe one day I'll snap, too. Nobody ever knows if they will. What I do know is, if I do snap, the odds of me engaging in that sort of mayhem are infinitesmal. And let's all be very happy about that, as I really don't want to consider the level of carnage that might result from such a thing, because that's another difference between me and him: I know this shit at a professional level, and ABB didn't. As I said, it's in the bones, but you're not born with it, and it's not immutable. That, incidentally, was the biggest lesson the Abrahamic tradition offered. I like to say quality must become a habit; US culture doesn't have it. A great deal of planning by the perpetrator goes into these events, which suggests that snapping is not an issue. The spree killers as opposed to the serial killers seem to be self-destructive. In a sense they are suicidal. Which raises the issue of why they feel the need to share their suicide. As to your last comment . . . yes, we are a frontier culture in many ways. Unfortunately. But European nations, looking back through the Thirty Years War and all that followed, and looking ahead to possible disunion, have not acquitted themselves so humanely either. Hopefully, your experiments with social democracy will prove more beneficial than our stuttering efforts.

vincentML -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 3:39:28 AM)
quote: Nope. Never have been, never will be. We're a nation founded by venture capitalists intent on despoiling the new world, massacring the natives, built on slave labor, farmed by indentured servants and convicts, grown by robber barons, brought to empire by illegal wars (Turns out the whole Maine fiasco was a staged accident, kinda like the Tonkin Bay accident, and don't even get me started on the Mexican War-read Thoreau for that) and suppression/mass murder in the third world, despoiling our neighbors, barbarous killings in South America, Asia and the Middle East in the name of fighting communism,befriending dictators, teaching them to torture and imprison their own populations, raping the poorer countries of their natural resources, overthrowing democratically elected governments (look into how the shah came to power)-yeah, I think it's safe to say that our hands aren't clean and never have been-that any supposed moral stance we take is nothing but flagrant hypocrisy. And you say OBL was evil? [8\|] Maybe he was more rational and righteous than our home grown propaganda allows. quote: Nope. I vehemently disagree. Justice is justice, and defines itself. You wanna do some small crime, steal from stores because you're a klepto, that's one thing, but when you go into a mall with a gun and start blasting, or when you rape loads of kids (Cuz you know, those poor pedophiles, they're just sick too. Once you start opening that door, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Adam Lanza was 20 years old. Suppose he had been a ten year old. Would you still advocate execution? quote: The Colorado cat is far more the exception than the rule while the Swedish guy was trying to make some bizarre political statement (Which I just don't get. If he had a problem with Muslims coming into his country, why go into a school? Breivik did not go into a school. He attacked the youth camp of a political party which he held responsible for the Muslim immigration, as I understand it. quote: Hell, considering the current sentiment against Muslims in many western nations, some media driven, some deserved, lots of people would have supported his cause if not his actions. For crying out loud, it's OK for them to behead us on camera, take hostages, roll bombs into churches- turnabouts fair play, The Islamists see their battle as a strike back at the historical invasion of their lands by the West. Now, particularly Israel and the USA. They claim to be an insurgency fighting an asymmetrical war against a greater power. But getting back to my main question . . . would you advocate execution for a spree killer who was ten years old?

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 3:40:07 AM)
Well, please let's not confuse psychopath with sociopath. Many, many sociopaths live relatively normal lives and manage to channel their unique perspective in non lethal ways, like banking. The psychopath is far more anti-social, and is much more likely to be unable to channel who they are in good ways, and is much more likely to be a criminal, though not necessarily a homicidal one. What is being learned about DNA this very minute is that the gestalt of who we are genetically is hugely complicated. Your DNA might be coded for a particular personality trait that will only be triggered if there is an environmental issue along with a nurture issue. Scientists are in the very baby stages of learning about this fascinating discovery. However, most spree killers do not fit the 'label' of sociopath or psychopath. Malignant narcissist might be closer to the mark. But you know, even highly skilled professionals have a hard time defining and applying those labels. They are all definitions of the ways a person can be anti-social, and determining how to properly socialize human beings, regardless of genetic predisposition is a challenge we face now, not in the future.

vincentML -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 3:44:06 AM)
quote: About those monsters, comparing Dahlmer with Lanza is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they are both a type of fruit, as Dahlmer and Lanza are both mass murderers, but they differ by type. Dahlmer was a serial killer, which is psychologically very different from Lanza, a spree killer. Yes, they are different from each other. They are also different from most of the rest of us. I included Dahmer because I have the sense that he was acting out of an uncontrollable compulsion. The question I am raising here is of responsibility. In that way there is a similarity between the spree killer and the serial killer, is there not? quote: I have done a certain amount of research on this issue, and the issue of why people become criminals in general. The thing is, rehabilitation does not work for criminals because they have never been habilitated. That is, they have not been raised to be a viable member of society. Our over crowded social structure is breaking down, just like too many rats in the maze. We have had massive overcrowding in the past. I have in mind Manhatten's lower East Side and Hell's Kitchen during the great migrations of Italians and Jews. Other world cities have massive overcrowding. New Delhi, for example. Tokyo. Are they harboring frustrated weaponless spree killers, I wonder? quote: I think most would agree that all though mass murderers have always been with us, our society is breeding spree and serial killers, and we need a better understanding of why that is. Yes, moreso lately it seems. Copycats? Weapons availability? I am not so sure that a killer sentenced to die would be so cooperative in a study as Dahmer was.

jlf1961 -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 6:06:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Well, please let's not confuse psychopath with sociopath. Many, many sociopaths live relatively normal lives and manage to channel their unique perspective in non lethal ways, like banking. The psychopath is far more anti-social, and is much more likely to be unable to channel who they are in good ways, and is much more likely to be a criminal, though not necessarily a homicidal one. What is being learned about DNA this very minute is that the gestalt of who we are genetically is hugely complicated. Your DNA might be coded for a particular personality trait that will only be triggered if there is an environmental issue along with a nurture issue. Scientists are in the very baby stages of learning about this fascinating discovery. However, most spree killers do not fit the 'label' of sociopath or psychopath. Malignant narcissist might be closer to the mark. But you know, even highly skilled professionals have a hard time defining and applying those labels. They are all definitions of the ways a person can be anti-social, and determining how to properly socialize human beings, regardless of genetic predisposition is a challenge we face now, not in the future. I agree with what you are saying here, but there is one other type of mental disorder that might also cover what happened friday, and in some of the similar incidents since Columbine. The condition is known as a psychotic break. Usually brought on by some extremely traumatic event in a person's life. Depending on the emotional stability of the individual, it could be something as normal as a spouse or lover breaking up with the individual to the death of a spouse, lover, child or someone equally important to the individual. A person suffering from this will strike out at those people or institutions that to them, represent the reason of the loss or they are so overwhelmed they want others to feel as much emotional pain or more than they are feeling. In essence they are truly suffering a period of temporary insanity. The difference in this type of individual, they rarely snap back to reality or sanity without long term, intensive therapy in an institution. Grief counseling in these situations does not go far enough to prevent a usually violent and deadly act of desperation. These individuals rarely take their own lives after the act. In most cases they end up in a semi catatonic state. And no ChatteParfaitt, I still have not slept. In all honesty I think I may be on a manic cycle. You see I am bipolar and suffer combat induced ptsd. I am on medication for both conditions, but due to the onset of side effects from the mood stabilizer I was on, my shrink decided to take me off it and not try something new at this time. FYI, I even proposed and support previous and continued proposals by moderate gun owners groups to require a mandatory Psychological evaluation before a person is allowed to purchase a firearm of any type. This proposal is actually a large part of the Greek gun laws.

Kana -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 6:33:23 AM)
quote: But getting back to my main question . . . would you advocate execution for a spree killer who was ten years old? Yep. Without a qualm. Let me be clearer-I am by nature an anarchist and a revolutionary. But when you take a weapon in your hand(Note that I didn't say gun-just this week a cat in china armed with a knife went into a school and did 22 kids, so this ain't an America only phenomena)and start mass killing citizens, children especially, you've lost the right to live. It's that simple. I don't care about the rationalizations, I don't care why the person did it, I don't care whether they were cognizant of the act or not. What I do care about is that they never breathe the same air as I do, and that there's never ever a chance for them to replicate the act. Pointing above, as has been mentioned, these things often aren't snap killings. These cats think them through, plan them out, post the info pre game on the net or via letters (like the VA Tech kid). They have many moments where they could stop, ask for help, derail the train they're riding. They don't, and that's on them. I hold people accountable for their actions, as I think any decent society should.

vincentML -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 6:38:27 AM)
quote: Yep. Without a qualm. Duly noted. Here is an ironic complication to the issue of culpability: Newtown school shooter’s mother collected guns, was loath to let people inside home

cordeliasub -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 6:38:46 AM)
quote: What is being learned about DNA this very minute is that the gestalt of who we are genetically is hugely complicated. Your DNA might be coded for a particular personality trait that will only be triggered if there is an environmental issue along with a nurture issue. Scientists are in the very baby stages of learning about this fascinating discovery. However, most spree killers do not fit the 'label' of sociopath or psychopath. Malignant narcissist might be closer to the mark. But you know, even highly skilled professionals have a hard time defining and applying those labels. They are all definitions of the ways a person can be anti-social, and determining how to properly socialize human beings, regardless of genetic predisposition is a challenge we face now, not in the future. Thank you for posting this. One of my biggest fears is that lay people are going to do some "research" on the "interweb" and start concluding that anyone who acts oddly or anyone whom they hear has bipolar or depression is someone to be feared. You would think people would be smarter than that.....but in my experience they are not.

littlewonder -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 11:44:32 AM)
and for those who think this CT kid had a snap, it wasn't. He planned it. He was wearing a bulletproof jacket. He didn't just snap and then said, "Oh wait, I should grab my bulletproof jacket".

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 11:53:08 AM)
Well, spree killers have a very different psychology in that (I agree with another poster) they have a psychotic break and go into a very violent fugue state. The initial killing is almost always triggered by things happening in the home. They kill their initial target, or targets (almost always family members), and something about that causes them to react very different from the 'average' person who kills a family member. The 'average' person will break down, cry, show great remorse. The killing was done in a fit of angry passion, and once that anger has passed, so is the need to wreak violence. The spree killer does not break down in the same way, and doesn't appear to have remorse for the initial killing(s). Instead they pass into a state where their only goal is to take as many victims with them as they can. There does appear to be some planning to this, but really not a lot. Some really don't even care much who the victims are, as long as the body count is high. All of this is so different from a serial killer who very often is an extremely charming psychopath who can fit into society. He may be extremely anti-social but he knows how to hide this well. Killing people becomes a well thought out fantasy that, if acted upon, becomes the be all and end all of the killer's existence. This type of killer often thinks he's far superior to other humans, and that it's right and just to kill others for his 'amusement,' or to satisfy his perverse sexual needs. Although, let's be clear, not all serial killers are sexual sadists, though most are on some level. For many it's not the sex, it's the power (something many members here know a bit about.) An organized serial killer is capable of living a double life, the life those around him see, and his internal life that totally revolves around his kills. And although many think of a serial killer as lonely and having a low level of existence (no permanent partner, low level job, etc), this is not always true. Many are highly intelligent and more than capable of fooling the general public. Look at Dahmer (have I been spelling his name wrong? sorry), this guy is drilling hole is people's heads and keeping skulls in the fridge, and yet when one of his victims escapes, he can talk his way out of it with the police and walks away with the victim. This is some major ability to hide who you are. Cops are trained to sniff out hinky. It is my opinion that spree killers always telegraph how unhappy and anti-social they are, and provide the people around them plenty of reasons to know something is seriously wrong. With serial killers it seems to depend on how psychotic they are, how intelligent they are, how organized they are. There is a much bigger range with this type of killer.

Aswad -> RE: Punishment Retribution Rehabilitation (12/16/2012 11:54:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee What kind of enlightened response would you like me to have towards a murderer of children? Well, one of them got reelected for doing so. Can't you at least summon up some basic decency? quote: I have no empathy for this person. I cannot and do not even want to try to understand why this person would do what he did. I have empathy for all living things. You may have limited empathy, as you suggest, but it can be trained like any other trait. I think that is a worthwhile endeavour. If nothing else, it would be going the opposite route of the killer, instead of the same one. The actions do not spring from nowhere, they spring from inadequate empathy with people. Also, I disagree: you absolutely can understand. That's the scary part. We can understand any killer. You choose not to even try. That's the scariest part. It ensures we have a ready supply of them. quote: This person deserves no mercy. If you get nothing else, please get this: Nobody deserves mercy or charity. This is what defines them: both are undeserved kindness, mercy by omission, charity by inclusion. If people deserve something, neither mercy nor charity applies: the kindness would be doing what's right, granting a kindness that it would be an injustice not to grant. quote: As I have said, I am not so nice. This, I've gathered. quote: I want this kind of scum to die horribly. You want to inflict suffering you believe to be appropriate. He inflicted suffering he believed to be appropriate. In terms of character... you get the picture? quote: Funny thing. when death is the penalty, recidivism goes WAY down. Yeah, and the stakes go way up, while the investment is lost, along with potential positive future contributions. I'm quite content with the 10% recidivism rate we have up here; our criminals pay their debt to society many times over. IWYW, — Aswad.

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