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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 2:47:04 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

For those of us who don't live in gun-nut heaven, "assault rifle" is a generic term for a general service military weapon. IE, a robust, all conditions weapon designed primarily to kill people.

I tend to think that's the spirit implied by the OP - a weapon purpose-built to kill PEOPLE, en masse.

And you can buy such weapons over the counter in the US??? For better home security, no doubt....

Yikes!



Forget it, Focus. This is an 'Americans Only' thread.

He is being sarcastic....everyone is welcome,in fact I am getting a little tired of the American pov on this matter

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 2:50:45 PM   
nakedthinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The AR-15 in all configurations is an assault rifle.

Wrong. The AR15 is not an assault rifle. It's the civilian version of an assault rifle. No select-fire, it's not an assault rifle.


The AR-15 is not a civilian weapon. It is simply the civilian designation of the weapon the US military designates the M16.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15#History


There is NO standardized technical definition of "assault rifle" although it is largely accepted that an assault rifle is any rifle capable of firing in full-automatic mode (ie: it is a machine gun). There was a legal definition of "assault weapon" created with the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. The term "assault rifle" is intended to stimulate an emotional response in people to gain support in banning some firearms that at the time were deemed to be particularly "mean looking" or had bad reputations from media people who generally would not know an Uzi from BB Gun. All firearms are assault weapons if someone uses them to assault someone. Likewise, the knife used in China (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57559179/china-school-knife-attack-leaves-23-injured/) to attack 23 school children there is an assault knife. If I stab someone with a ballpoint pen, it is an assault pen.

In the 1994 definition of an "assault weapon," the fact that some banned rifles were functionally identical to others which were not banned had no bearing on the definition created. In fact, if someone took a factory-new Ruger Mini-14, and swapped the wooden stock for a plastic folding stock, and then added a flash suppressor to the end of the barrel, although they did not at all modify the firing capability or ballistic characteristics of the rifle, they converted a "plain old hunting rifle" to a "bad gun" banned under the 1994 legislation.

AR-15 and M-16 rifles are NOT identical. Generally speaking, the AR-15 is a rifle only fires in semi-automatic mode, and the M-16 is a machine gun, meaning that it fires in either full automatic (or three-round burst) mode and semi-automatic mode selectively. Virtually all of the parts in both guns are interchangeable. For this reason that some rifles of one category have been converted to the other category, there has been small-scale blurring of the sharp edge between the two with regard to semi-auto versus full-auto fire capability. Nonetheless, regardless of designation, if a firearm has ANY capacity to fire in fully automatic mode (or any other mode involving more than one bullet fired with a single movement of the trigger), the 1934 National Firearms Act requires the owner of such weapon to obtain a Federal Firearms License (FFL).

The process of obtaining an FFL includes a background check to prevent those with criminal history or documented psychological disorders from obtaining the firearms. The same background check is now performed by all firearms dealers for any sales of any type of firearms. There is a so-called loophole which allows non-dealers to sell non-FFL firearms to others without any background check. So, if you wish to sell your one old hunting shotgun at a garage sale to the first anonymous person who has the right amount of cash, you are allowed to do that.

For the purpose of shooting a large number of people in a small space (like a classroom), the difference between a fully-automatic rifle and a semi-automatic rifle is almost negligible. The advantage actually goes to the semi-auto rifle because the shooter is less likely to waste ammunition from firing while shifting to the next target. Therefore, all of the debate about this or that rifle being horrible with regard to its ability to shoot a classroom of students is irrelevant and silly.

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 2:51:03 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raptorsc

They are Magazines... please call them magazines, you guys are making my Drill Seargent roll over in his grave...

Responsible gun ownership is the bottom line people, 30 rounds, 3000 rounds, full auto semi auto bolt action automatic grenade launcher, nuclear warheads... they are all tools, they are inanimate, they do not kill, the USER kills. the USER is what makes it dangerous. When will people stop blaming inanimate objects for their own failings in responsibility?

The definition of assault rifle is PURELY cosmetic. AR doesn't even stand for "assault rifle" it stands for "automatic rifle" defineing it's operation not the fact it fires fully automatic. it automatically chaimbers another round via a gas fed blowback system meaning you dont need to manually chaimber another round after each firing.

Magazine size means ziltch in the grand sceme of things, do you really think you are limited to how many magazines you can carry if you have 10 round or 100 round magazines? this aint a video game man, I can haul around 30 ten rounders just as easily as i can haul around 10 30 rounders. you think stopping to reload is going to be a problem when your targets are frightened people? do you honestly believe smaller magazine sizes are going to save anyone?

It seems to me the media and most public figures are looking at these numbers like 30 and 100 and assault and thinking oh mah gawd so skurry! if only he had 20 less rounds in that "clip" (shudder) or if it wasnt a *gasp* "assault rifle" maybe all those people wouldn't have died! No they would have because he would have reached into his pocket, pulled out another of his completely legal 10 round magazines that you feel "safe" with and killed 10 more people.

The bottom line is his mother should have locked her fire arms up, or gotten rid of them with a depressed child in the home and perhaps payed a little more attention to her kid and did her motherly duties. Its tragic, it's sad, people, children died. but dont blame the equipment blame the useless sacks of genetic material who used it.


Ok.....say all that`s true.....

Why do you(or anyone) need a 150 round magazine?

Plinking isn`t good enough answer.

Neither is the "I don`t want the gov. or or anyone telling me what to do" line.



_____________________________

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President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 2:54:23 PM   
Raptorsc


Posts: 35
Joined: 7/20/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raptorsc

They are Magazines... please call them magazines, you guys are making my Drill Seargent roll over in his grave...

Responsible gun ownership is the bottom line people, 30 rounds, 3000 rounds, full auto semi auto bolt action automatic grenade launcher, nuclear warheads... they are all tools, they are inanimate, they do not kill, the USER kills. the USER is what makes it dangerous. When will people stop blaming inanimate objects for their own failings in responsibility?

The definition of assault rifle is PURELY cosmetic. AR doesn't even stand for "assault rifle" it stands for "automatic rifle" defineing it's operation not the fact it fires fully automatic. it automatically chaimbers another round via a gas fed blowback system meaning you dont need to manually chaimber another round after each firing.

Magazine size means ziltch in the grand sceme of things, do you really think you are limited to how many magazines you can carry if you have 10 round or 100 round magazines? this aint a video game man, I can haul around 30 ten rounders just as easily as i can haul around 10 30 rounders. you think stopping to reload is going to be a problem when your targets are frightened people? do you honestly believe smaller magazine sizes are going to save anyone?

It seems to me the media and most public figures are looking at these numbers like 30 and 100 and assault and thinking oh mah gawd so skurry! if only he had 20 less rounds in that "clip" (shudder) or if it wasnt a *gasp* "assault rifle" maybe all those people wouldn't have died! No they would have because he would have reached into his pocket, pulled out another of his completely legal 10 round magazines that you feel "safe" with and killed 10 more people.

The bottom line is his mother should have locked her fire arms up, or gotten rid of them with a depressed child in the home and perhaps payed a little more attention to her kid and did her motherly duties. Its tragic, it's sad, people, children died. but dont blame the equipment blame the useless sacks of genetic material who used it.


Ok.....say all that`s true.....

Why do you(or anyone) need a 150 round magazine?

Plinking isn`t good enough answer.

Neither is the "I don`t want the gov. or or anyone telling me what to do" line.



quote:

Ok.....say all that`s true.....

Why do you(or anyone) need a 150 round magazine?

Plinking isn`t good enough answer.

Neither is the "I don`t want the gov. or or anyone telling me what to do" line.


Why do you need a car that drives over 65 mph? Why do you need so many square feet in your house? Why do you need a dog? why do you nee....

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 2:56:56 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		I don't have a burning desire for anything over the current magazines. I'm perfectly content with having 10 round magazines.

Any competitions that I enter are geared towards the 10 round magazine. Plinking is just plinking. My hand gun holds 8 rounds, and honestly if I haven't hit an intruder with the first 8, any extra rounds aren't going to improve my aim.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 12/17/2012 2:58:30 PM >

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:01:07 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Yep, way to derail discussion with semantics.

For those of us who don't live in gun-nut heaven, "assault rifle" is a generic term for a general service military weapon. IE, a robust, all conditions weapon designed primarily to kill people.

I tend to think that's the spirit implied by the OP - a weapon purpose-built to kill PEOPLE, en masse.

I think you understand the op and some of the responders quite well Focus...as a matter of fact you have got things pretty well nailed

The only thing he nailed was himself. A rifle "purpose-built to kill people en masse" defines a full-auto weapon. So it can hardly be dismissed as "semantics" to point out that the weapons you're talking about are not full-auto assault rifles "purpose-built to kill people en masse".

But thanks for playing.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/17/2012 3:04:36 PM >

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:03:37 PM   
Raptorsc


Posts: 35
Joined: 7/20/2012
Status: offline 		What weapon in the past 5000+ years of modern man hasn't been designed to "kill people"? Hell, the yoyo was originally designed to kill people

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:05:21 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		A car has a benign purpose,so many square feet in your house does not threaten me...you people can call them tools,you can call them inanimate objects...you can repeat over and over again"guns don't kill people,people kill people"
The fact is we are suffering from a spate of mass SHOOTINGS ....Shootings....shootings.... shootings.

Do you all understand that.
These victims are not dying because someone had too many square feet of house,or a car that went to fast...they are dying because access to guns in this country is nothing more than childs play.

Deflection has worked for years...but deflection will not work this time,this time is different,it doesn't matter whether you folks understand that or not.
The ship has sailed boys and girls,events have overtaken your ability to switch and bait with terminology and bullshit scenarios.

Friday changed things,and it's not going back,the coming days will set in stone a nations resolve as they watch 27 victims be buried,the sight of 20 little coffins can be said to put the end to the carnage ...and the bullshit deflection.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:10:39 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Yep, way to derail discussion with semantics.

For those of us who don't live in gun-nut heaven, "assault rifle" is a generic term for a general service military weapon. IE, a robust, all conditions weapon designed primarily to kill people.

I tend to think that's the spirit implied by the OP - a weapon purpose-built to kill PEOPLE, en masse.

I think you understand the op and some of the responders quite well Focus...as a matter of fact you have got things pretty well nailed

The only thing he nailed was himself. A rifle "purpose-built to kill people en masse" defines a full-auto weapon. So it can hardly be dismissed as "semantics" to point out that the weapons you're talking about are not full-auto assault rifles "purpose-built to kill people en masse".

But thanks for playing.

K.

No,Kirata...I wish to thank you for playing and to thank you for continuing to add nothing to this conversation at all.
Try as you might the general public see's that weapon as an assault rifle,they see the carnage and they fully understand that these things do not belong in someone's closet.
You can play with words all you like....I don't care.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:10:57 PM   
Raptorsc


Posts: 35
Joined: 7/20/2012
Status: offline 		thousands of people die every year to cars that go to fast... moreso than shootings shootings shootings.... The only reason you dont make a stink about car deaths is because you "need" your car. bottom line is again youre blaming an inamiate object for your fear. refusing to take responsibility for what is a human problem. Attempting to take away something from everyone that doesn't need to be taken away because "You" feel its right.

Well I feel no cars need to go over the legal speed limit of 65 mph, so from now on noones vehicle may exceed 65 mph all vehicles currently owned must have their motors downsized to lawnmower engines or be crushed and melted into chunks of steel.

that is exactly how stupid your argument sounds right now.


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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:15:12 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The only thing he nailed was himself. A rifle "purpose-built to kill people en masse" defines a full-auto weapon. So it can hardly be dismissed as "semantics" to point out that the weapons you're talking about are not "purpose-built to kill people en masse" and are not "assault rifles".

But thanks for playing.

K.[/font][/size]


I thought that his point was precisely that he wasn't interested in 'playing', K.

Seriously, it's difficult to imagine any group, other than one of military people - or of Americans - having any conversation about the definition of 'assault rifle' at all.

Don't you US gunners ever get self-conscious? This would be like a bunch of Brits having an intense conversation about umbrellas.

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:21:56 PM   
Just0Plain0Mike


Posts: 127
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ok.....say all that`s true.....

Why do you(or anyone) need a 150 round magazine?

Plinking isn`t good enough answer.

Neither is the "I don`t want the gov. or or anyone telling me what to do" line.



Personally I think those huge magazines are ridiculous and pretty much pointless. They're also unreliable and expensive. But some people want one because they're unique. So they can brag, look how cool my gun is. Not something unique to gun owners.

Now, if we're going to ask why about things. Why do you need a car that can do 200MPH when it's illegal to do more then 65 almost anywhere? I'll lay odds that more people who by super cars are planning to speed, then guys who buy 100rd mags are of shooting up schools. And considering the number of traffic deaths per year I think that's a reasonable question.

< Message edited by Just0Plain0Mike -- 12/17/2012 3:26:36 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:22:27 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Liar
quote:

The AR-15 was eventually adopted by the United States military under the designation M16


What's not clear to you here? The AR-15 was and is a civilian weapon that the military adapted by adding automatic fire capability. Your claim to the contrary and your claim that "AR-15" is just a civilian designation for the M16 assault rifle are both pure bullshit.

K.

The AR-15 ws originally full auto capable. It was only later, at least 10 years after it was designed, that a civilian semi auto only version was sold.. The AR-15 is the original and correct designation for the weapon. M16 is simply the designation one nation's armed forces have for the gun. The ones colt sold to Malaysia in 1959 were designated AR-15 as were the first batch delivered to the US military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variants
(note the M16 is only some of the military models of the AR made for military use and that many others are designated some variant of the AR-15)

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:23:40 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It also doesn`t take but a parts change to make a AR-15 semi into full auto.

Not quite. The AR15 and M16/M4 do not use the same lower receiver.

Not quite true. Some M16/M4's and some AR-15's do not use the same reeiver. Some models do.

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:26:19 PM   
Raptorsc


Posts: 35
Joined: 7/20/2012
Status: offline 		The definition is argued because its part of the topic, there is a large varience in the definition of assault weapon, one which is misunderstood between the two groups of people having the argument here, gun owners state its definition as a specific type, size, shape, or function of a weapon. non gun owners define it as "a baby killing machine that slices and dices and rampages on its own causing any young man that possesses it to do terrible terrible unthinkable acts on his fellow man."

They have no knowledge of the topic that they are arguing so they are afraid, and when humans are afraid of something, in their ignorance... they destroy it.

It doesn't stop at 30 round magazines, it never will, the fear continues to spread as the next shooting is with a shotgun, then those are gone, then the rifle, then the knife, then spoons, then everyone has to wear gloves cuz someone got beat to death.

People are uneducated but afraid to say so, so this is the result. paranoia, bans, hatred, fear mongering, stupidity, death.

All of it avoidable, with education, responsibility, knowledge...


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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:27:01 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`ve seen a Colt AR-15 converted to full-auto.

Even if so, it takes considerably more than dropping a couple of different parts into an AR to accomplish that.

It depends. On some models of AR-15 sold in the civilian market it meant simply putting in a different selector switch. Some required replacing the sear and after the assault weapons ban it usually meant rather significant changes to the entire action.

You continue to think there has only ever been one AR-15. The weapon has been in production for 53 years and has undergone many variations.

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:30:27 PM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
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_____________________________

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:35:15 PM   
Raptorsc


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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:35:48 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raptorsc

The definition is argued because its part of the topic, there is a large varience in the definition of assault weapon, one which is misunderstood between the two groups of people having the argument here, gun owners state its definition as a specific type, size, shape, or function of a weapon. non gun owners define it as "a baby killing machine that slices and dices and rampages on its own causing any young man that possesses it to do terrible terrible unthinkable acts on his fellow man."

I know guns and I'm not making up bullshit and claiming an assault rifle must be full auto capable.

The fact is the term assault rifle is meant to describe weapons first built during WW2, the German Stg 44. The weapons are meant for close range combat where the roughly .30 caliber battle rifles then in common use were over powered and hard to use. The designers produced shorter and lighter weapons that fired a lower caliber high velocity round, The two weapons most familiar to people are the AR-15 and the AK-47.

What I'm concerned about is all the people who claim to know guns but are either ignorant of these basic facts or are lying.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/17/2012 3:36:36 PM >

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RE: Armed "volunteers" in our schools - 12/17/2012 3:38:14 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

The definition is argued because its part of the topic, there is a large varience in the definition of assault weapon, one which is misunderstood between the two groups of people having the argument here, gun owners state its definition as a specific type, size, shape, or function of a weapon. non gun owners define it as "a baby killing machine that slices and dices and rampages on its own causing any young man that possesses it to do terrible terrible unthinkable acts on his fellow man."




And then you have those of us who are following the federal definition.

Please, kindly, take your generalizations, and shove them.

quote:

They have no knowledge of the topic that they are arguing so they are afraid, and when humans are afraid of something, in their ignorance... they destroy it.


Oh goody, you are a mind reader as well. Do tell us what knowledge I do or do not possess about this topic. If you cannot, then kindly shut up.

quote:

It doesn't stop at 30 round magazines, it never will, the fear continues to spread as the next shooting is with a shotgun, then those are gone, then the rifle, then the knife, then spoons, then everyone has to wear gloves cuz someone got beat to death.


And then you have some of us, like myself, who doesnt see this as a fear issue. Im not "afraid". I see problems... I see massive problems... I see people hurting, not only others, but themselves.

You are blathering on about the same thing all gun enthusiasts blather on about.. and.. lest you forget, or are not informed yourself (read that as you being ignorant of certain facts) I grew up around guns, I know how to fire them, I know how to hunt, I was also shown how to properly care for and secure a gun.

And what I see is a society filled with irresponsible gun owners.

quote:

All of it avoidable, with education, responsibility, knowledge...


Ahhh.. education... how long have we been educating the public about securing firearms... how long have we touted the knowledge about children being harmed by handguns.... how many laws have been written to try and force the public to become more "responsible".

When people are complaining.... its not wise to complain about those who are complaining until you actually listen.. and hear... what they are complaining about.

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