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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:10:41 AM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
There are 1000's of "regulated" gun control laws on the books...1000's

I really wish the Anti 2nd and the anti gun crowds would at least be a little bit intellectually honest...


I think the "anti guns crowds" would also appreciate a little bit intellectually honesty. Personally I think I should be able to hold a pro gun regulation position that it's not a matter of the quantity but the quality of regulations and not get dismissed as anti-gun.

The Swiss very noticeably have different regulations than we do, why can't I talk about that without proposing a change to the Constitution? I think I should be able to talk about the vast difference between the Swiss model our Founders pictured and the FUBAR that actually exists and how we dig our way out of that FUBAR through regulation without being labelled intellectually dishonest.


Actually, there is nothing FUBARed with our Constitution, What is FUBARed is the absurd way in which it is handled.

As much as I would loathe and detest the idocy of those who advocate a revisionist stance on the Second Amendment, I support the process in which enough of them convince the overwhelming legislative majority to legally amend the Constitution. What I cannot stand is this "flexible interpretation" BS that allows whatever fashionable notion to control the cases.

Imagine a "liberal interpretation" to apply to slavery instead of actually making use of the Amendment process.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:11:11 AM   
Marc2b


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Okay, its a few days later and I’m a little calmer now. The main reason why I believe that people should wait before discussing the issues right away when events like these happen is out of respect for the dead, the dying, and the grieving. I consider it to be tactless and classless to start the political finger pointing while the bodies are still warm.

The other reason is that our raw emotions can cloud our thinking. I consider it important that, despite our horror, sadness and outrage, we step back and look at things dispassionately… lest we allow emotion to trump reason. Mob justice is an oxymoron.

One of the big questions being bandied around is, naturally, “what can we do to prevent this in the future?” I think the first thing we have to do is accept that there is no perfect solution. There is nothing we can do that guarantees mass shootings of this sort never happen again… but there is much we can do to reduce the probability.

There are two issues being brought to the forefront by the recent shootings: Gun control and mental health. For now, I’m going to leave the mental health issue alone (maybe I’ll take it up later) and just focus on gun control.

How do we balance our individual right to bear arms with other people’s right not to get gunned down by lunatics or simply irresponsible people? I do believe that the Second Amendment grants individuals the right to bear arms but we would be remiss not to realize that the Second Amendment was written in a different era. It was an era when a single individual committing a mass murder was nearly impossible. It was an era when you were considered an expert if you could load and fire your weapon three times in a minute. As has been noted before in this debate, the Framers couldn't even conceive of the ability to fire a hundred or five hundred or more rounds a minute.

I am loath to tamper with the Second Amendment because I am loath to set the principle that any of the Bill of Rights can be tampered with. Our rights are too important to have them rewritten by people with an agenda. I do believe there is a… loophole (not the word I’d prefer but it’s the best I can think of right now)… in the Second Amendment that would allow us to balance our individual rights with our safety. The Second Amendment gives us the right to bear arms but it does not specify what arms.

Guns are not without their legitimate purposes and these could be categorized broadly as follows: defense of person and home, sport (hunting and target shooting), law enforcement and military defense. To some extent we already classify guns into such categories but I think we need to be more clear cut and stricter in enforcement.

Single shot weapons (by which I mean, you have to take some action to chamber another round after firing) such as pump action shotguns, bolt action rifles, and single action revolvers would be legal to own by any adult without a felony record and with no documented case history of mental illness that makes them a danger to themselves or others (the term “mental illness” covers a broad range of maladies, most of which do not result in violent behavior. It is unfortunate that many people who suffer from mental illness – and who pose no danger to others – should have to suffer the stigma that arises from incidents such as the Connecticut shootings). These are weapons that can be legitimately used for home defense, hunting and target shooting. Weapons like these can still do a hell of a lot of damage in irresponsible hands but far less than automatics or semi-automatics. If nothing else, you have a chance to either run away, or engage the mother fucker while he’s reloading.

I would add two other conditions – and possibly a third – to the ownership of such weapons. First, completion of a gun safety course… nobody should own a gun until they understand the basics of gun safety.

Second, a waiting period and background check. All gun dealers would be responsible for checking a federal database to see if you are not on a do not sell to list.

As for your more powerful weapons, automatics and semi-automatics, those would be the weapons of law enforcement and the military. You do not need an automatic weapon to hunt deer. If you want to try your hand a shooting a .50 caliber machine gun… join the army.

As for that third idea I have (and this is an idea I’m still kicking around in my head)… let’s bring back the militia. People today tend to think of the National Guard as the modern day version of the militia but in its broadest sense the militia simply meant the armed citizenry. They would train once or twice a year and were expected to respond when called upon by the government in the event of an emergency. We should make it the responsibility of gun owners to undergo a refresher course once a year. In addition to reviewing gun safety, they would be trained in basic military/police procedures and organized in a chain of command. That way if local police needed some extra manpower (say, for a manhunt) they could call upon the militia. I would not require the gun owner to respond to such a call if they were unable (say for health reasons) but society would make it a point of honor for those able to do so. Like I said, I’m still kicking this idea around and I know it needs some refinement.


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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:31:45 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Okay, heres an idea that would kill two birds with one militia.

You can own guns if you are able bodied but define that as being in shape....

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:36:49 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One solution might be to attach strict liability standards to inherently dangerous weapons like automatic weapons. This way the liability for responsible gun ownership can be transferred directly to manufacturers, purchasers, and owners of such weapons.

The Gun industry would then have to share in the high external costs associated with its business and as such it would become more self-regulating.


Yes, just stop selling to blacks, mexicans, and anyone who looks poor. Racist as hell but it would stop a ton of violence.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:40:34 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I bet the dems and republicans are both going "thank god" because nobody is paying attention to what really matters

THIS! ^ The money keeps rolling in, nothing that matters changes, the workers get poorer, the rich are happy.
Dupont, Monsanto, RJR or ADM kill more Americans every month with their products than mass murders did in our whole history. The visuals are hidden in hospital wards and don't make the front page. The people are just as dead. Only they weren't killed by the insane, but by the greedy. But who cares, that's the American Way?

The people thinking parents will change American politics have no idea how many gun owners sat the last election out as they really didn't have a dog in the fight. Look for the current paralyzing polarization of our politics to move to a whole new level. And if any new gun laws do get passed, expect the cry for yet more when they totally fail to prevent the next, and worse, tragedy.


Bingo. Imagine how many would live if we just banned corn syrup? Our epidemic of diabetes would brgin to end. Monsanto is pure evil.


(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:45:19 AM   
SimplyMichael


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With the right ammo, a pump shotgun can spew hundreds of lethal projectiles without reloading. Sniper rifles, oops i mean hunting rifles have already been used to kill 16 and wound 32.

Its a fools errand to think you can ban some guns to solve this. So each time you need to ban more and more.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:46:41 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One solution might be to attach strict liability standards to inherently dangerous weapons like automatic weapons. This way the liability for responsible gun ownership can be transferred directly to manufacturers, purchasers, and owners of such weapons.

The Gun industry would then have to share in the high external costs associated with its business and as such it would become more self-regulating.


Yes, just stop selling to blacks, mexicans, and anyone who looks poor. Racist as hell but it would stop a ton of violence.

Your just chock full of helpful suggestions,eh?
Just keep proposing the completely absurd in the hopes that the issue will be dropped !
Sorry my gun toting friend,the old method will no longer work,we (advocates of sensible regulations) will not be so easily dissuaded after this one.
Read a newspaper today,turn on a reputable news source,the winds of change are blowing,the tide has turned .Senator Mark Warner of Virginia put it quite succinctly,he called the school shootings a "game changer".

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 7:48:34 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Okay, heres an idea that would kill two birds with one militia.

You can own guns if you are able bodied but define that as being in shape....


No, I would not restrict it to able bodied people only. If you are referring to my militia idea, I would think of it along the lines of the Coast Guard Auxiliary (my mother and step father were members once). The Coast Guard would give training to anyone who wanted it (the immediate benefit for them, fewer idiots out on the water) and in return could call upon the auxiliary in a emergency but... and here is the important point... the auxiliary members always had the right to refuse. Most of them could and did respond when needed but they were not obligated to if they had health problems or simply were out of town.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 8:02:57 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Oh, we will get gun control out of this for sure. We will stop law abiding citizens from owning certain weapons. It just will do nothing to lower crime or stop crazies from doing crazy shit.

This is a great cover for politicians to keep the rich rich, fuck the rest of us while being seen as "doing something" even if it is utterly innefective. Well, it will send people into a buying frenzy so they can,buy more guns and ammo to stash.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 8:06:07 AM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One solution might be to attach strict liability standards to inherently dangerous weapons like automatic weapons. This way the liability for responsible gun ownership can be transferred directly to manufacturers, purchasers, and owners of such weapons.

The Gun industry would then have to share in the high external costs associated with its business and as such it would become more self-regulating.





Yes, just stop selling to blacks, mexicans, and anyone who looks poor. Racist as hell but it would stop a ton of violence.

Your just chock full of helpful suggestions,eh?
Just keep proposing the completely absurd in the hopes that the issue will be dropped !
Sorry my gun toting friend,the old method will no longer work,we (advocates of sensible regulations) will not be so easily dissuaded after this one.
Read a newspaper today,turn on a reputable news source,the winds of change are blowing,the tide has turned .Senator Mark Warner of Virginia put it quite succinctly,he called the school shootings a "game changer".



I'm sorry, what part of banning an instrumentality that predated these occurances and is protected as one of our First and and Fundamental Rights "sensible"?

When is a regulation to ban something to stop an activity (that has already been banned in the past, which failed to curtail that activity) sensible?

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 8:22:12 AM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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Does the name Cari Lightner mean anything to you ?

Doesn't matter,I will help you out with it,Cari was a 13 year old killed by a drunk driver in 1980.

Heard of M.A.D.D. ?


The drinking age ,nationally moved to 21.

Tough new penalties were enacted...and as Joe Nocera in the NY Times phrased it a "turned a dangerous behavior that had long been socially acceptable into a taboo"

Dick's sporting goods is suspending the sale of "modern sporting rifles in all of it's chains"

Private Equity Firm Cerberus is selling off the maker of the Bushmaster rifle that was used in the shooting.

Shit is changing before your eyes....you can keep railing away about it,this is America ,you have that right.
Ain't going to change shit though,most Americans love their children.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 8:41:51 AM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Does the name Cari Lightner mean anything to you ?

Doesn't matter,I will help you out with it,Cari was a 13 year old killed by a drunk driver in 1980.

Heard of M.A.D.D. ?


The drinking age ,nationally moved to 21.

Tough new penalties were enacted...and as Joe Nocera in the NY Times phrased it a "turned a dangerous behavior that had long been socially acceptable into a taboo"

Dick's sporting goods is suspending the sale of "modern sporting rifles in all of it's chains"

Private Equity Firm Cerberus is selling off the maker of the Bushmaster rifle that was used in the shooting.

Shit is changing before your eyes....you can keep railing away about it,this is America ,you have that right.
Ain't going to change shit though,most Americans love their children.


Well, thanks for the help. As I recall, MADD and the surrounding legislation was instrumental in eliminating drunk driving... an activity we haven't seen in decades (I will help you out with it... sarcasm)

The drinking age also moved Nationally to 21 as the federal government blackmailed state holdouts by threatening to withhold spending on roads... A GREAT DAY in federalism and the advancing of State's Rights

And now Dicks Sporting Goods is selling off their Bushmasters? Caloo! Callay! That is different from the reaction to the DC sniper around 2002, or K-Mart's removal of handgun ammo after the Michael Moore Columbine ambush?

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 12/18/2012 8:42:37 AM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 8:47:31 AM   
mnottertail


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One can make it a Ragnarok scenario all day long, and every time.   I would like to see what the proposal for gun control is, that is being bandied about once it hits the floor.

Either way, OBAMA IT TRYING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS AWAY!!!!  BUY THEM FROM ME BEFORE THEY GO UP ANOTHER THOUSAND!!!!!!

LOL.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 9:04:21 AM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Does the name Cari Lightner mean anything to you ?

Doesn't matter,I will help you out with it,Cari was a 13 year old killed by a drunk driver in 1980.

Heard of M.A.D.D. ?


The drinking age ,nationally moved to 21.

Tough new penalties were enacted...and as Joe Nocera in the NY Times phrased it a "turned a dangerous behavior that had long been socially acceptable into a taboo"

Dick's sporting goods is suspending the sale of "modern sporting rifles in all of it's chains"

Private Equity Firm Cerberus is selling off the maker of the Bushmaster rifle that was used in the shooting.

Shit is changing before your eyes....you can keep railing away about it,this is America ,you have that right.
Ain't going to change shit though,most Americans love their children.


Well, thanks for the help. As I recall, MADD and the surrounding legislation was instrumental in eliminating drunk driving... an activity we haven't seen in decades (I will help you out with it... sarcasm)

The drinking age also moved Nationally to 21 as the federal government blackmailed state holdouts by threatening to withhold spending on roads... A GREAT DAY in federalism and the advancing of State's Rights

And now Dicks Sporting Goods is selling off their Bushmasters? Caloo! Callay! That is different from the reaction to the DC sniper around 2002, or K-Mart's removal of handgun ammo after the Michael Moore Columbine ambush?

Reading comprehension much ?

No Drunk driving has not been eliminated,but the local LEO will no longer cheerfully drive you home,after finding you weaving down his streets ?
Peoples attitudes about the harm associated with "having a few" and than driving home have changed.

People now select designated drivers.

If none of this,applied to the gun violence issue,sounds promising to you....tough shit,it sounds good to a great many of your fellow citizens.

Again with reading comprehension,Dicks is not selling off the maker of Bushmaster's,Dick's never owned them,the Equity Fund firm Cerberus is selling off the maker of Bushmasters.....they own the manufacturer .

Dick's is suspending their sale of "sporting rifle's in all of their stores.
Seems they have a community conscious.....something that seems absent from the pro gun folks.
The best they can do is clam up,how come we haven't heard from the good people at the NRA ?
Why was their facebook page taken down ?
Why the silence ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 10:28:50 AM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Does the name Cari Lightner mean anything to you ?

Doesn't matter,I will help you out with it,Cari was a 13 year old killed by a drunk driver in 1980.

Heard of M.A.D.D. ?


The drinking age ,nationally moved to 21.

Tough new penalties were enacted...and as Joe Nocera in the NY Times phrased it a "turned a dangerous behavior that had long been socially acceptable into a taboo"

Dick's sporting goods is suspending the sale of "modern sporting rifles in all of it's chains"

Private Equity Firm Cerberus is selling off the maker of the Bushmaster rifle that was used in the shooting.

Shit is changing before your eyes....you can keep railing away about it,this is America ,you have that right.
Ain't going to change shit though,most Americans love their children.


Well, thanks for the help. As I recall, MADD and the surrounding legislation was instrumental in eliminating drunk driving... an activity we haven't seen in decades (I will help you out with it... sarcasm)

The drinking age also moved Nationally to 21 as the federal government blackmailed state holdouts by threatening to withhold spending on roads... A GREAT DAY in federalism and the advancing of State's Rights

And now Dicks Sporting Goods is selling off their Bushmasters? Caloo! Callay! That is different from the reaction to the DC sniper around 2002, or K-Mart's removal of handgun ammo after the Michael Moore Columbine ambush?

Reading comprehension much ?

No Drunk driving has not been eliminated,but the local LEO will no longer cheerfully drive you home,after finding you weaving down his streets ?
Peoples attitudes about the harm associated with "having a few" and than driving home have changed.

People now select designated drivers.

If none of this,applied to the gun violence issue,sounds promising to you....tough shit,it sounds good to a great many of your fellow citizens.


ahhh.... comprehension. Right. So do you comprehend that bringing a firearm into a fireams free zone is already a crime? Are you aware that murdering defenseless children is also a crime? Are you aware that neither of those laws did sweet fuck all to stop this from happening. So now in your infinite wisdom you think adding a third law (to break) will magically stop this from happening. Seriously THINK before posting.


quote:

Again with reading comprehension,Dicks is not selling off the maker of Bushmaster's,Dick's never owned them,the Equity Fund firm Cerberus is selling off the maker of Bushmasters.....they own the manufacturer .

Dick's is suspending their sale of "sporting rifle's in all of their stores.


Um, no shit. JUST LIKE when the same thing happened during the DC Sniper with Bushmaster or with K-mart ammo sales after Columbine.



quote:

Seems they have a community conscious.....something that seems absent from the pro gun folks.


yeah I know what you mean... some idiot does something meaningless and horrible to a group of people in a community, then a bunch of idiots proceed to attempt something meaningless and horrible to everybody in order soothe their own selfish feelings. Pot, meet kettle/


quote:

Why the silence ?


Perhaps because the Pro gun lobby has the sensitivity to STFU NOW in mourning and fight the fight later in observance of community conscious, whereas the gun-grabbing cunts can't wait for the bodies to turn cold before starting up.


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 10:43:29 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
Well, thanks for the help. As I recall, MADD and the surrounding legislation was instrumental in eliminating drunk driving... an activity we haven't seen in decades (I will help you out with it... sarcasm)


Mitigation, mitigation, say it with me mit·i·ga·tion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.madd.org/statistics/
In the United States, the number of drunk driving deaths has been cut in half since MADD was founded in 1980.
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration FARS data, 2011.


(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 10:46:26 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ahhh.... comprehension. Right. So do you comprehend that bringing a firearm into a fireams free zone is already a crime? Are you aware that murdering defenseless children is also a crime? Are you aware that neither of those laws did sweet fuck all to stop this from happening. So now in your infinite wisdom you think adding a third law (to break) will magically stop this from happening. Seriously THINK before posting.


Which illustrates the purpose of making gun owners responsible for who gets their hands on their guns.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 11:10:12 AM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ahhh.... comprehension. Right. So do you comprehend that bringing a firearm into a fireams free zone is already a crime? Are you aware that murdering defenseless children is also a crime? Are you aware that neither of those laws did sweet fuck all to stop this from happening. So now in your infinite wisdom you think adding a third law (to break) will magically stop this from happening. Seriously THINK before posting.


Which illustrates the purpose of making gun owners responsible for who gets their hands on their guns.


I agree completely.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 11:12:32 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
In case you people have forgotten, I did start a thread that did offer to amend the constitution to remove the 2nd amendment, all anyone wanted to discuss was the trade off.

Not a single person offered a reasonable suggestion to counter what I put on the table.

_____________________________

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You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 11:16:35 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

In case you people have forgotten, I did start a thread that did offer to amend the constitution to remove the 2nd amendment, all anyone wanted to discuss was the trade off.

Not a single person offered a reasonable suggestion to counter what I put on the table.


The 2nd should not be removed. I dont want to take anyone's guns away who owns them lawfully. I want gun owners to be more responsible about the dangerouys weapons they possess.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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