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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 1:06:26 PM   
meatcleaver


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The amusing thing about all this defence of guns was that many people who were mourning a couple of days ago are now jealously defending their gun fetishes and claiming guns aren't a problem, lunatics are. No gun lover appears to be willing to give way an inch just to see if a modicum of control does have an affect. What happened to all the tears a couple of days ago, was it all ersatz emotion?

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 1:12:50 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The amusing thing about all this defence of guns was that many people who were mourning a couple of days ago are now jealously defending their gun fetishes and claiming guns aren't a problem, lunatics are. No gun lover appears to be willing to give way an inch just to see if a modicum of control does have an affect. What happened to all the tears a couple of days ago, was it all ersatz emotion?



Hey... F*** your inch.



We gave a mile with the NFA act

We gave another with the '68 GCA

Then another with the '86 Machine Gun ban

And YET another with the '94 AWB.



"WE" give all the "common sense" compromises after the whole thing goes through the wringer.

What the hell do "you" ever give except grief. What Quid has been given Pro Quo?




Give us this inch!

... and then what?

Then we'll shut up for a little while.



Pass.

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 1:27:39 PM   
meatcleaver


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ROFL!!!!!!

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 1:55:49 PM   
ServosCor


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            I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with an ounce of compassion not still mourning those lost in this tragedy.  As a gun owner/carrier I will say I am all for banning assult type rifles at this point in time.  If we examine the facts of recent shooting massacre's, many of them were committed with weapons similar to the Bushmaster .223/  Is there a real and logical reason that any citizen needs such a weapon for home protection?  None that I can think of.  Educate me, please, if I am mistaken.
 
            I do stand strong in my belief that the responsible, sane citizens of our country do have need and right to protect themselves when faced with evil such as the likes of Lanza and those who choose to cause harm to the law abiding citizens of America.  Our media loves to hype up and drown us in print and pics when these shootings occur.  Funny, they don't seem as inclined to trumpet the news of a citizen exercising his right to protect his family w/ his legally purchased firearms.
 
                 just my humble opinion.
 
              ~servos cor~

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 2:28:55 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

My plan (as I have for years now) is that I take new people out shooting (gun owners and non-gun owners) and I teach them the four rules of firearms safety and how to safely and responsibly handle a firearm. It's not the catch-all solution, but I wager I am one of the few if only people on this thread who makes an active and earnest effort to promote meaningful responsible handling of these weapons.

With respect to the generalized solution, there are criminal and civil penalties for reckless endangerment and negligence. the solution FIRST is to ensure the police are doing their job enforcing these laws, and the DA is making meaningful prosecution for such violation. Some may argue that more should be done. I say that may/may not be true, but if they are not interested in FIRST pursuing those involved to ensure the current laws are being enforced, then their argument and the resulting legislation proposed has no credibility whatsoever.

Seems Mrs.Lanza tried the same thing,we now know that she took her son to the range with her,do you think it is possible she was teaching him how to handle weapons responsibly,,,certainly it seems he was well versed in using them.

As an aside,do you always carry on your conversations with such vitriol...or is that reserved for gun discussions ?


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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 2:30:16 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


As a matter of interest, what defined 'people' in that sentence? Was it all men, women and children? If it was all adults, at what age was a person considered to have reached adulthood in the days when those words were written?

I only ask because, well, the 2nd being sacrosanct and all . . .

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 2:44:14 PM   
Moonhead


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In that context, "people" are adult males who need to be tooled up in case they have to be drafted. The idea is that under extremity, every man (and if necessary woman and child) in the country can form a "well regulated militia".
Of course, it could be argued that the need for the second amendment ceased to exist as soon as a standing army was introduced, but a lot of people seem a bit too attached to it to let it go...

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 2:52:47 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One solution might be to attach strict liability standards to inherently dangerous weapons like automatic weapons. This way the liability for responsible gun ownership can be transferred directly to manufacturers, purchasers, and owners of such weapons.

The Gun industry would then have to share in the high external costs associated with its business and as such it would become more self-regulating.


Yes, just stop selling to blacks, mexicans, and anyone who looks poor. Racist as hell but it would stop a ton of violence.



Who do you think should pay for the external costs of the gun industry?

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 3:06:22 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No gun lover appears to be willing to give way an inch just to see if a modicum of control does have an affect.

10 shot, including 4 teens, Friday afternoon and night

Chicago Shootings Spike 49% In November Despite Strict Gun Laws

Tracking homicides in Chicago

K.

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 3:19:29 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No gun lover appears to be willing to give way an inch just to see if a modicum of control does have an affect.

10 shot, including 4 teens, Friday afternoon and night

Chicago Shootings Spike 49% In November Despite Strict Gun Laws

Tracking homicides in Chicago

K.


Ignore the fact that many of the guns used in chicago are legally obtained by straw purchasers and then sold to gang bangers on the black market.

A nation wide restriction could not be evaded in such a manner.

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 3:25:25 PM   
Moonhead


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That's a given, isn't it? It's the main reason State wide bans on anything are pretty useless...

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:29:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A nation wide restriction could not be evaded in such a manner.

Absolutely. After all, we've tried it with alcohol and drugs. You can't argue with success. Good thinking.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:32:26 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ServosCor


I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with an ounce of compassion not still mourning those lost in this tragedy.


Agreed.


quote:

As a gun owner/carrier I will say I am all for banning assult type rifles at this point in time. If we examine the facts of recent shooting massacre's, many of them were committed with weapons similar to the Bushmaster .223/ Is there a real and logical reason that any citizen needs such a weapon for home protection? None that I can think of. Educate me, please, if I am mistaken.



As a gun owner/carrier non-victim who has used his CCW in self defense, I disagree entirely. If we examine the facts of recent shooting massacres, many of the were in fact committed with weapons similar to the Bushmaster .223. And if by happenstance or better yet, nefarious design, the rash of shootings developed where the shooter emulated a video game character who carried 4 Colt Peacemaker Cowboy-style revolvers, is that then acceptable grounds to ban Colt Peacemaker revolver from private ownership? Would you then make an argument that the Colt peacemaker revolver is an antiquated design no-longer in use by any law enforcement or military and as such put forth the challenge for people to justify its necessity or subject it to banning merely because some idiots employed as a weapon of choice?

Thus, on the merits of this argument you must understand one thing... there is no burden of proof the gun owner must fulfill to justify the possession/ownership of a legal weapon, but rather a burden of proof must exist as to why that weapon in specific (or class in general) must be banned from legal possession. If in fact there is no compelling reason (other than it killed people, which is what most antis claim is true of "any gun's purpose") then there is no need to justfy owning them whatsoever.

That said, before and after the passage/lapsing of the Assault weapons Ban, there have been necesitous circumstances whereby a private citizen had a need of such rifles. The best example is the Asian store owners in the LA riots, who used these rifles to defend their livelihoods from looting and arson. Another good example was Hurricane Katrina where there was a widespread governmental collapse at the local AND federal level and many US citizens there were plunged into anarchy for a period of days. Finally, there is the North Hollywood shootout where the Armed Robbers, sporting Auto-converted AK rifles and body armor pummelled through the police defenses. Police armed with 9mm pistols were unable to pierce the body armor. It was not until the police stopped at a local gun store and borrowed these AR15 from the store to turn the tide and defeat these armored assailants whose weapons and armor were illegal yet still obtained and used.


quote:

I do stand strong in my belief that the responsible, sane citizens of our country do have need and right to protect themselves when faced with evil such as the likes of Lanza and those who choose to cause harm to the law abiding citizens of America. Our media loves to hype up and drown us in print and pics when these shootings occur. Funny, they don't seem as inclined to trumpet the news of a citizen exercising his right to protect his family w/ his legally purchased firearms.

just my humble opinion.


Agreed there.

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:32:51 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A nation wide restriction could not be evaded in such a manner.

Absolutely. After all, we've tried it with alcohol and drugs. You can't argue with success. Good thinking.

K.


So, despite other nations success, we should do absolutely nothing and continue to endure these events.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:50:20 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A nation wide restriction could not be evaded in such a manner.

Absolutely. After all, we've tried it with alcohol and drugs. You can't argue with success. Good thinking.

K.


So, despite other nations success, we should do absolutely nothing and continue to endure these events.


No. Instead we try other obvious venues that we have neglected in the past and quit foolishly scapegoating some instrumentality whose former scapegoating made no measurable improvement in the issue once banned.

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:51:40 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

No. Instead we try other obvious venues that we have neglected in the past and quit foolishly scapegoating some instrumentality whose former scapegoating made no measurable improvement in the issue once banned.


Such as?


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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:51:55 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A nation wide restriction could not be evaded in such a manner.

Absolutely. After all, we've tried it with alcohol and drugs. You can't argue with success. Good thinking.

K.


So, despite other nations success, we should do absolutely nothing and continue to endure these events.


No. Instead we try other obvious venues that we have neglected in the past and quit foolishly scapegoating some instrumentality whose former scapegoating made no measurable improvement in the issue once banned.


The assault weapons ban did result in a measureable improvement as I already proved in the other thread.

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:55:35 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The assault weapons ban did result in a measureable improvement as I already proved in the other thread.

You haven't proved anything whatsoever, and claiming otherwise won't change that fact.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 4:58:33 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


The assault weapons ban did result in a measureable improvement as I already proved in the other thread.


lol


out of curiosity, what was the highest level of education you have completed?

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 12/18/2012 4:59:39 PM >

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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/18/2012 5:01:00 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

In that context, "people" are adult males who need to be tooled up in case they have to be drafted. The idea is that under extremity, every man (and if necessary woman and child) in the country can form a "well regulated militia".
Of course, it could be argued that the need for the second amendment ceased to exist as soon as a standing army was introduced, but a lot of people seem a bit too attached to it to let it go...


I just wondered, Moonhead. Only, because if 'people' meant any person, of either sex or of any age, I'm kind of surprised that none of the gun-grovellers who worship the 2nd Amendment nightly (the words of it painted over their hearths, or similar) haven't already argued 'Why didn't those elementary schoolkids who were shot have guns themselves'?


Lovely, lovely, lovely, delicious 2nd Amendment. Lotsa lotsa lotsa guns. Shiny, metally and loud. Lovely!


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