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RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/19/2012 11:09:12 PM

epiphiny43

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It's interesting that this discussion isn't currently part of the discussion on preventing school murder. The Founding Fathers trusted an armed citizenry to protect the nation, we don't even trust trained teachers to protect students.
In an age of military aviation (Pilots taking years to train, modern warplanes taking decades to develop and construct) being a dominant force and weapons that reach around the whole planet in under 30 minutes, it is difficult to reconcile Jeffersonian views on standing armies with survival among hostile states. I don't think his assessment of standing armies is wrong, however.
I've read that current Seal team leaders were interviewing applicants to their unit with questions if they would be willing to fire on US citizens of ordered to, among other queries. More than worrisome, if true?
As our military seems to have such a short institutional memory that the Nuremberg doctrine of individual responsibility is now null and void, I fear our standing army if our leaders perceive a sufficiently large internal threat to their version of stability.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 141

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/19/2012 11:11:25 PM

tazzygirl

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Its not the military I fear.... well... I should say the troops. Its those in command we should fear. And whoever is lining their pockets.

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Post #: 142

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/19/2012 11:46:05 PM

jlf1961

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_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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Post #: 143

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/19/2012 11:59:39 PM

epiphiny43

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quote:

"Its not the military I fear.... well... I should say the troops. Its those in command we should fear. And whoever is lining their pockets." (Tazzygirl) '

Given the glorification of 'chain of command' and the lack of concern about individual responsibility for actions when under orders, what is the difference? One hopes the generals would refuse to cooperate but the silence of the general staff about the foolhardy actions in the Near East says career is more important than ethics, morality or patriotism for too many? At some point, My Country, Right or Wrong becomes My Leader, Right or Wrong? The first is worrisome enough. The second is a direct path to tyranny.
We've seen good men distracted by the 'Necessities of the Moment' allow such barbarity as waterboarding and secret prisons in the name of national security. Even though it's well understood in the intelligence community that torture is one of the best ways to get uselessly unreliable information. When leaders with less internal character happen to have power, what evils will be turned against internal opponents? The digital age offers authorities unprecedented access to our speech, our thoughts and our location.
I know a lot of people who understand and fear the chances of our government being coopted by far less honest men than we have elected so far. Many of them are the voices opposing the work to remove all weapons that actually could oppose a trained military oppression. Bolt action rifles can irritate and harass modern units but at great cost in lives. Small unit and urban warfare now depends on large volume of fire to suppress counter fire so maneuver is possible. 5 round magazines and no auto or burst fire is bad enough. It looks like there will be attempts to control even semiautos by continually expanding the definition of 'assault' rifles, an effort that is already taken to the absurd by taking advantage of the current ignorance of the average voter.
Chechnya showed how a poorly equipped but determined people could require a major commitment of modern military to defeat. I doubt the American people are anything as dedicated of warriors as the Chechens and our gun control evangelists seem well on the way to making sure there isn't even a ghost of the capabilities the Chechen fighters had in hand.

The quote by Thomas Paine is precisely what has been forgotten in the creation of free fire zones now known as 'gun free' areas of schools, government buildings and places of gatherings. Where people are prevented from defending themself either by removing the capabilities or the will, Someone usually shows up to use violence or the threat of it to take advantage of them.

Israel and Switzerland may have the closest equivalent to the Jeffersonian militia, universal military service except for the lame and halt (and Ultra Orthodox Jews) and most reservists have infantry weapons at home. Interestingly, these well trained and equipped riflemen use firearms in antisocial ways far less than Americans.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 12/20/2012 12:02:47 AM >

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Post #: 144

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 12:16:34 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Thats a cute picture. The school shooting... who did them since I found the following comment?

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41196/#lBuPhGF74h0qTEZX.99

It sounds great... nice slogan... but who is doing the killing in a rural town?

Few details are known about why an ex-employee of a Penske Truck Rental facility in Kennesaw entered his former place of business and shot five people, killing three. No motive is yet being discussed.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mass-murder-inside-school-safety-zone-kennesaw

Interesting once someone decides to look.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 145

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 2:57:39 AM

jlf1961

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yep it is real interesting.

It is also all over facebook

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Post #: 146

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 6:20:50 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

The point of the thread is to ask the anti gun and gun banning why they are not using thier resourses to amend the 2nd!

because it is not necessary. Now for banning guns it would be, but for regulations it is not.

And that is why you might here alot of blowholing, but there is no impetus to out and out ban guns with the majority, but there is an impetus for some heavier restrictions (and I think with a majority).

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Post #: 147

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 6:26:25 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

FDD ,solely in the context of the above argument,please tell me(or explain to me) what you see the difference is between "security" and "defense" ?

As I said... The the common defense had already been provide for in Article 1 Section 8.

There was no need for the framers to use the 2nd Amendment to provide for defense.

A federal common defense of all states. In the mean time, let's pretend you federally, and maybe thru the state, invaded mexican lands, now there will not be a hue and cry raised in boston if a couple of texas mutts get shot. So, then you have what is called an alamo.

Bill of rights for all americans, not only does the great might of the entire united states defend, each state can defend.

Who will shoot the mexicans, said the little red hen?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/20/2012 6:32:47 AM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 148

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 6:51:47 AM

MasterREB

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Why is it the Swuss haveso many automatic wepones and not many reports of death maybe we should try their ideas arm every one

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Post #: 149

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 7:24:59 AM

Moonhead

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The Swiss also have compulsory national service. Perhaps you should try that as well?

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Post #: 150

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 7:40:32 AM

LizDeluxe

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The Swiss have an entirely different culture about guns and a substantially different culture overall.. People cite the gun culture in the US as being the problem and that is an accurate statement. Instead of dealing with the gun culture their next step is just to ban the guns which is an illogical progression. The Swiss have shown that it is not the guns themselves that is the problem. Here in the US we rarely address the root cause of our societal ills. It's much easier to address the symptom and it's even easier to strip someone else of their rights so long as you have no personal stake in those same rights. We twist our Constitution every which way to find a way to protect certain rights as we see fit and turn our backs on the 2nd Amendment.

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Post #: 151

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 7:54:05 AM

Moonhead

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Well, the Swiss thing of doing national service and then being trusted with a rifle sounds a lot more like a contemporary version of the second amendment than some of what's being spouted in here, doesn't it?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LizDeluxe)

Post #: 152

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 8:06:35 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Well, the Swiss thing of doing national service and then being trusted with a rifle sounds a lot more like a contemporary version of the second amendment than some of what's being spouted in here, doesn't it?

The Swiss model is very unlike the US.

You cannot simply go out and buy a shedload of military style weapons in Switzerland. If you are a trained conscript subject to callup by the army you are issued a single rifle that you are expected to keep ready for use. At least 20% of young men are not deemed suitable and do not receive the training or the weapon. It seems unlikely Lanza would have been issued a weapon by the Swiss.

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Post #: 153

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 8:09:44 AM

Moonhead

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Hence: more like what the second amendment was aiming at originally, than the bizarre mess of legal quibbling that surrounds a cargo cult style worship of a half understood legislation in the current American model. Sorry it wasn't clear that I was getting at that.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 154

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 8:12:52 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Hence: more like what the second amendment was aiming at originally, than the bizarre mess of legal quibbling that surrounds a cargo cult style worship of a half understood legislation in the current American model. Sorry it wasn't clear that I was getting at that.

I was just expanding on what had been said. The fact that 20% of the eligible men don't get consrcipted seemed relevant.

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Post #: 155

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 8:15:35 AM

Moonhead

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True. That is a definite difference to wanting everybody armed, however unsound, in case there's a slave uprising or King George starts bribing the Indians to cause more trouble.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 156

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 8:41:49 AM

RacerJim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

How dare you post a proven solution to the problem and, of course, totally debunk all the blame the guns rhetoric. :-)

Actually, I suspect the murderer in the "gun free" school zone DID care that guns were not allowed there...nothing to fear.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 157

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 11:21:57 AM

tazzygirl

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Everyone is required to carry a gun.... except in the gun free zone....

If the man who killed those people had not been required to have a gun, would he have gotten one? Would he have had a weapon to kill anyone with?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RacerJim)

Post #: 158

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 2:02:17 PM

jlf1961

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Columbine Father Darrell Scott Echoes Sentiments Over Sandy Hook Shootings Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/442192/columbine-father-darrell-scott-echoes-sentiments-over-sandy-hook-shootings/#A8dZBZSI8y5IG7Wd.99

quote:

“In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA.

“I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent.

“I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of that blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves.”

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 159

RE: Then Amend the Constitution - 12/20/2012 2:57:58 PM

tazzygirl

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Amazingly enough, I havent mentioned the NRA unless someone else brought them up. The number of guns owners is estimated, in the US, between 43 - 55 million. The NRA has, last I heard, 4 million members.

That doesnt negate the lobbying power of the NRA.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 160

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