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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:24:01 AM

cuddlenplay

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/7/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AliceMajesty

I did read the original post.

I agree that this is in base a mental health problem - what I'm arguing is that it's a lot harder for crazies to go around shooting people is the can't get guns.

There is plenty of information about our particular laws that you can find for yourself - as I originally advised you to. As to the "Laws won't make a difference because criminals don't abide to them anyway" argument I only have one, tired, reply: Well then, why not make murder, rape, abuse, robbery, mutilation etc. legal? The laws against it don't do anything, because criminals don't care about laws anyway, right?
As I said: make guns harder to get and it's automatically harder for people to shoot other people.

You take away the guns and they will just find ways to be more creative. This is, as other posters have stated, IF you could take away the guns. A bomb could kill just as many people, if not more done right. And it is fairly easy to find out how to make one from common products.
The publicity that these massacres are getting is what is begetting more massacres in my opinion. So much attention, for months the world knows these sickos names and talk about them constantly.

(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 21

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:25:35 AM

AliceMajesty

Posts: 26
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline

Or the difference could be about laws and the enforcing of those laws. Europe is not a single country and our laws differ on many aspects. It was the Swedish laws I recommended checking - and your examples only work to further strengthen my point that we've clearly done something right here...

(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 22

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:28:47 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AliceMajesty

I did read the original post.

I agree that this is in base a mental health problem - what I'm arguing is that it's a lot harder for crazies to go around shooting people is the can't get guns.

There is plenty of information about our particular laws that you can find for yourself - as I originally advised you to. As to the "Laws won't make a difference because criminals don't abide to them anyway" argument I only have one, tired, reply: Well then, why not make murder, rape, abuse, robbery, mutilation etc. legal? The laws against it don't do anything, because criminals don't care about laws anyway, right?
As I said: make guns harder to get and it's automatically harder for people to shoot other people.

See, you and I don't disagree on that fundamental issue highlighted in red. HOWEVER, the problem is the absurd premise that this epidemic can be solved or even treated with firearms regulation. It simply cannot work. We have over 100 years worth of accumulation of "modern" semi and fully automatic weapons in private collections and in the black market. The ONLY way to actualize what you propose is to make this country that which it is not. Not only would the Second Amendment have to be repealed, but so to would the Fourth. We would need to to a full scale overhaul of law enforcement that goes completely contrary to what this country was built upon. In short, in order to EFFECTIVELY control guns, the nation would have to control the people as a police state.

The alternative is what people erroneously call "reasonable regulation" where the dynamics of this country are not changed but certain regulations are passed. The problem is that this is the law without teeth. This is the war on drugs. It does little more than mount a public service campaign, and serve up some token arrests. Given the factors in this country it is ALL or it is NOTHING with gun control. ALL is absolutely repugnant and impermissable and "some" is meaningless, for the reasons cited above.

(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 23

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:33:06 AM

epiphiny43

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Joined: 10/20/2006
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The 'success' of European gun control is illusory. The old world countries had similar if not the same rates of general violence and mass tragedies before the present gun control and far before that. England's gun violence is raising, arming police is advocated more and more. Armed response police are seen more often and with heavier weapons.
The North European peoples kill each other with Any weapon far less than Americans, but they kill themself a lot more often. The legal strictures of each country are far less significant forces in what violence occurs than wider social realities and culture. People who are so new to the study of social dysfunction that they don't understand this shouldn't be in the discussion. A similar difference is how English youth fight and rape when drunk while Mediterranean youth nap more likely? Each culture builds in sets of expectations of conduct that are largely pre-concious. This is more obvious with violence than some other activities.
Europe also has a nice class expression in it's gun practices. The wealthy have no problem getting sporting guns whenever they wish, and their security people usually have any firearms felt necessary. The politically disconnected are the subjects of the laws, not the elite. Which has it's correspondence in many local jurisdictions here. Gun laws more frequently are used to protect the existing power structure than any other population group or the people generally.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 24

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:33:18 AM

Lucylastic

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find anyone here who has said it is all or nothing.....

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(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 25

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:35:05 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Again, I didnt say that, STOP strawmanning. And making ASSumptions
and PLEASE STOP using alcohol, cars, knives, broom handles, swords, ad nauseam because it is JUST Deflecting the issue with stupid.
Talk about using talking points. GUNS have no other use. When loaded they only serve as a tool to put bloody holes in living things and making people feel brave.
Stupid fucking analogies arent going to sway anyone.
I have many times been in favour of psychological testing, and mental healthcare.... the thing is people like YOU dont wanna go with universal health care or decent access to mental health care, or address poverty and social problems . Costs too much money to spend on people who dont want to help themselves.
You dont gotcha NOTHING except a bad case of the spins

So let's stop deflecting with stupid. I will pack my stupid cars point away, you pack your stupid "look at so and so NON US country" argument away, look at my 5 points and argue relevantly and intelligently ON THOSE POINTS. ;)

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 26

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:38:43 AM

Lucylastic

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sorry dood.you are shit outta luck when you insist I debate only what you want

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Post #: 27

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:43:12 AM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/sweden

They rank #28 in gun ownership, but have about the same population as Georgia and somewhere between 2x or 3x the landmass...

There are almost 3 times as many illegal handguns in Sweden as there are registered handguns. Murder rates are extremely low, but about what you would expect for a rural environment. The rate I want to see that I cannot find is the percentage of murders by guns in Sweden that were obtained legally. That information is conveniently missing from the data...

The country did not develop in an era where guns were a necessity, and Sweden never developed a "gun culture". In fact, Sweden hasn't even been considered a world power since that unfortunate incident when Knut the Bald ripped off a testicle jumping out of his knarr during a viking raid on an English monastery in 1198.

Furthermore, the Swedes have completely different cultural influences, social values, political ideologies, and a completely different type of government. Whatever statistical differences you think you're going to find are probably going to be found in everything from automobile accidents to tooth decay to recidivism rates for jaywalkers because they have a completely different lifestyle.

There is no valid comparison.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 28

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:43:44 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

sorry dood.you are shit outta luck when you insist I debate only what you want

Actually, "dude" we just tried it your way and failed.

The OP is about GUN CONTROL and SAFETY IN OUR SCHOOLS (OP and I reside in the US). I responded with how this is a failed venture and I outlined why with specificity. You never once addressed my points and jumped on your own little diversion. I played in kind and you didn't like that calling for a drop of those pretenses. I assented and go figure, here you go (again) with nothing relevant to say on what was presented. Nice chatting with you.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 29

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:47:05 AM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
Status: offline

FR

Completely different situation, but all this brouhaha after these shootings reminds me quite a lot of the brouhaha after the civil disturbances which took place in the UK in August 2011.

Seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions, a lot of stereotyping, and a lot of people looking around for people who were responsible, people to blame, and all sorts of changes to be implemented by God knows who.

I noticed the thread on 'armed guards in schools'.. This being an adult website makes me wonder how many people who are posting on these threads are actually parents or have close contact with kids. You mean you'd be really comfortable with kids having to attend school in a sort of siege situation? Really?

As for gun control. You know you can control who gets the guns, who gets the ammo, but you're never going to be able to control the mind of the person with their finger on the trigger.

How to prevent it? You might as well send people into schools with crystal balls, clairvoyants, psychics and fortune tellers, but even then there's not much chance.

How about starting out with some good old fashioned social responsibility?

This time the victims were children, small children with their whole lives ahead of them, children who would have become educated, graduated, gone to college and become people like you and me.

Children are our future, this doesn't just go for their parents, their families, and their teachers and friends. It goes for everybody. We as adults need to share a sense of responsibility which ensures that our children are able to grow up and develop in communities and a society which is safe, positive and which prepares them adequately as adults.

We could start by developing a sense of responsibility, empathy and compassion - which appear to be three things which are often so lacking in today's society and culture.

When we as adults can be confident that we are modelling all three of these things, we can be also confident that our children and young adults will also do likewise.

That's my 0.02

< Message edited by stellauk -- 12/18/2012 4:49:27 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:51:27 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

FR

Completely different situation, but all this brouhaha after these shootings reminds me quite a lot of the brouhaha after the civil disturbances which took place in the UK in August 2011.

Seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions, a lot of stereotyping, and a lot of people looking around for people who were responsible, people to blame, and all sorts of changes to be implemented by God knows who.

I noticed the thread on 'armed guards in schools'.. This being an adult website makes me wonder how many people who are posting on these threads are actually parents or have close contact with kids. You mean you'd be really comfortable with kids having to attend school in a sort of siege situation? Really?

As for gun control. You know you can control who gets the guns, who gets the ammo, but you're never going to be able to control the mind of the person with their finger on the trigger.

How to prevent it? You might as well send people into schools with crystal balls, clairvoyants, psychics and fortune tellers, but even then there's not much chance.

How about starting out with some good old fashioned social responsibility?

This time the victims were children, small children with their whole lives ahead of them, children who would have become educated, graduated, gone to college and become people like you and me.

Children are our future, this doesn't just go for their parents, their families, and their teachers and friends. It goes for everybody. We as adults need to share a sense of responsibility which ensures that our children are able to grow up and develop in communities and a society which is safe, positive and which prepares them adequately as adults.

We could start by developing a sense of responsibility, empathy and compassion - which appear to be three things which are often so lacking in today's society and culture.

That's my 0.02

Well-taken points and correct. The problem is that they charge everybody with some level of responsibility and we are not willing to do that. However, scapegoating an inanimate instrumentality and passing some token legislation can give the community a false impression that something is being unearthed by the media, and addressed by the politicians, so that the public can feel better and move on (to the next tragedy) that the news decends upon like a circus.

(in reply to stellauk)

Post #: 31

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 4:59:34 AM

AliceMajesty

Posts: 26
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline

This will be my last post here, because really I am getting fed up with the ignorant replies.

First of all, to epiphiny43: I did not say to look at European gun laws, I said to look at Swedish gun laws. Here there's no class difference in getting hunting rifles, none at all! I would honestly like to question if you've ever been to any European country at all, because it seems to me like you have no idea how things work here.

Secondly, I'd just like to give an example on how I think things should be handled in USA to prevent a continuation of this killing culture.

I have given Swedish laws as an example of a largely working system, and I still stand by that point. We're not allowed to carry weapons in public, not guns, not knives, not pepper-spray - and we have a lot less people getting killed. For America, I would institute a lot stricter regulation on fire arms and the public use of them. I would outlaw assault rifles, and regulate hand guns by licences issued only to those that need a hand gun in their job (police, possibly body guards - obviously all requiring extensive mental health examinations). I would make a hunting licence a strict procedure, and allow hunting rifles to those that qualify. I would then issue a time period when people with assault rifles and hand guns can turn them in freely in exchange for something encouraging - this would include all weapons, legally acquired or otherwise. After this period ended, I would start a collection of any no longer legal registered guns that have not been turned in, these would not be exchanged for anything. Having finished that, there would obviously be a number of years that there were still illegally acquired fire arms out there - those would be confiscated as soon as found and slowly be smaller and smaller in number.

In addition to this, I would concentrate on bettering border security and limiting the smuggling of weapons into the country as well as an open health care and mental health care to provide the people that need it with help before they do something awful. I would keep nationwide campaigns to give people a better sense of mental illness and make sure anyone who needs help can get it.

It would take time, yes, but that's just all the more reason to start as soon as possible.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 32

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:03:28 AM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

I don't agree with many of your points there, but I just realized I've been awake for 26 hours so I'm going to just address one little item before I make some cocoa and go to bed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I noticed the thread on 'armed guards in schools'.. This being an adult website makes me wonder how many people who are posting on these threads are actually parents or have close contact with kids. You mean you'd be really comfortable with kids having to attend school in a sort of siege situation? Really?

Off the top of my head, I can think of the parents of 20 kids who would be delighted to have their children alive today because someone was able to use deadly force when it was required. As a parent, I have to wonder why anyone would rather have their kid get shot in the head because they think that an armed guard is the same thing as a police state.

Let me put it like this...

Say I'm the shooter and you're a teacher...

BANG, I just killed a kid.

You try to stop me unarmed.

BANG I just killed you

BANG

BANG

BANG

3 more dead kids.

Some other useless unarmed idiot tries to stop me.

BANG Now that ones dead too

Oh lookie! More kids!

BANG

BANG

BANG

Get the picture yet?
-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 12/18/2012 5:05:07 AM >

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to stellauk)

Post #: 33

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:05:47 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

Personally Alice, I hope you stay, the ignorant responses are not unusual regarding non US citizens, but dont let them turn you off, there are more than a few non US people that refuse to give up(Im not saying that to make you feel that you are giving up.)

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(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 34

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:07:12 AM

jlf1961

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From: Somewhere Texas
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I asked for workable solutions and all I see is a debate about America vs the rest of the world.

Lucy I see your points, dont get me wrong.

Maybe i should have said working within the confines of American cculture.

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(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 35

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:07:59 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Oh And now Newtown was to do with a diverse ethnic mix? Come on, this is pure fantasy. There are lots of cities in western Europe where whites are in the minority and the none white population is very diverse. They still don't seem to have the massacres.

Wonderful. then let's knock that domino down. Now feel free to take your handful/armload of similary diversely (or uniformly) populated nations and move forward with ALL the other factors I have mentioned instead of sniping a single issue off the table and acting as if that that somehow equalized the two countries as analogues of each other.

Anything but the issue at hand huh?

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Post #: 36

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:09:40 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Off the top of my head, I can think of the parents of 20 kids who would be delighted to have their children alive today because someone was able to use deadly force when it was required. As a parent, I have to wonder why anyone would rather have their kid get shot in the head because they think that an armed guard is the same thing as a police state.

Let me put it like this...

Say I'm the shooter and you're a teacher...

BANG, I just killed a kid.

You try to stop me unarmed.

BANG I just killed you

BANG

BANG

BANG

3 more dead kids.

Some other useless unarmed idiot tries to stop me.

BANG Now that ones dead too

Oh lookie! More kids!

BANG

BANG

BANG

Get the picture yet?
-SD-

Don't it just suck. Why is John Wayne never around when you need him!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 37

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:10:20 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AliceMajesty

This will be my last post here, because really I am getting fed up with the ignorant replies.

I'd just like to give an example on how I think things should be handled in USA to prevent a continuation of this killing culture.

I have given Swedish laws as an example of a largely working system, and I still stand by that point. We're not allowed to carry weapons in public, not guns, not knives, not pepper-spray - and we have a lot less people getting killed. For America, I would institute a lot stricter regulation on fire arms and the public use of them. I would outlaw assault rifles, and regulate hand guns by licences issued only to those that need a hand gun in their job (police, possibly body guards - obviously all requiring extensive mental health examinations). I would make a hunting licence a strict procedure, and allow hunting rifles to those that qualify. I would then issue a time period when people with assault rifles and hand guns can turn them in freely in exchange for something encouraging - this would include all weapons, legally acquired or otherwise. After this period ended, I would start a collection of any no longer legal registered guns that have not been turned in, these would not be exchanged for anything. Having finished that, there would obviously be a number of years that there were still illegally acquired fire arms out there - those would be confiscated as soon as found and slowly be smaller and smaller in number.

In addition to this, I would concentrate on bettering border security and limiting the smuggling of weapons into the country as well as an open health care and mental health care to provide the people that need it with help before they do something awful. I would keep nationwide campaigns to give people a better sense of mental illness and make sure anyone who needs help can get it.

It would take time, yes, but that's just all the more reason to start as soon as possible.

Perhaps you will have the opportunity to read this having ended participation (perhaps not). Nevertheless, you have put forth something constructive here which merits response. For starters, what you have written that is highlighted in red has substantially been observed in California and certain other states, and it has been observed for some time (decades). It is a failing policy and has not ended violent crime with firearms. With respect to what you have written highlighted in blue, the United States has NOT addressed (or addressed sufficiently) and I believe these suggestions are more in line with the solution to the problem. Where you and I would likely disagree is that I believe in the necessity of the points in blue finding those in red burdensome, unsuccessful, and unjust, whereas you believe in implementing both the points in blue and red.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 12/18/2012 5:11:44 AM >

(in reply to AliceMajesty)

Post #: 38

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:12:00 AM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Off the top of my head, I can think of the parents of 20 kids who would be delighted to have their children alive today because someone was able to use deadly force when it was required. As a parent, I have to wonder why anyone would rather have their kid get shot in the head because they think that an armed guard is the same thing as a police state.

Project much?

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Post #: 39

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 5:16:15 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

I can't speak for anybody else about Dave's notion, but I do have a worrying thought about how this (hypothetical) armed guard might respond in the event of being fired by the school board.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 12/18/2012 5:19:49 AM >

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Post #: 40

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