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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:28:28 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

If that's your idea of a credible source, you shouldn't be surprised if people can't be bothered sitting through any videos you post.


Seconded.

The Daily Wail is not considered to be an authoritive or well-balanced source of info.


Edit to add: That report is about violent crimes - not gun-related crimes that we are discussing here.
You are trying to give everyone a bum steer with that article.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/18/2012 8:30:46 AM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:30:56 AM   
Moonhead


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When you offer some sources that are more credible than the National Enquirer, I'll take them seriously. I know that some of the American right in here are convinced that the Mail is a real paper which deserves to be taken seriously, but in truth it's just the Sun for people who don't want tits on page 3, and is notorious for its constant bleating in demand of an increase in police powers.

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:31:07 AM   
Lucylastic


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the daily wail is full of bullshit
their source s bullshit and according to the bbc
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8668615.stm
South Africa is a place where a lot of violent crime happens.
That much is hard to dispute.
Each day an average of nearly 50 people are murdered.
In addition to these 18,000 murders each year, there are another 18,000 attempted murders.
Murder is a staple of the news. In April, it was white supremacist Eugene Terreblanche. Earlier this month, it was Lolly Jackson, the flamboyant owner of the Teazers strip club chain, killed at a house in Kempton Park, just outside Johannesburg.
<snip>Dr Burger says research done by other academics points to the social basis for a high crime rate in such areas.
"There are extremely high rates of unemployment in some areas. All of this leads to a large element of frustration. Often this is the thing that sparks violence.
"The gap between rich and poor is still widening and it leads to what is seen as relative deprivation. The people in the very, very poor communities, they see wealth.
"It is not just a gap, it is a visible gap. The situation is aggravated by poor service delivery. Many of our municipalities are in complete disarray, complete dysfunction. This then leads to dissatisfaction. People protest sometimes very violently."</snip>
There are many other crimes apart from murder which are seen as problematic in South Africa.
The national figure of 203,777 episodes of "assault with the intent to inflict grievous bodily harm" might be alarming. It's hard to compare this with the UK where statistics are grouped differently, though the latter has a larger population (61 million compared with South Africa's 49 million.)
But like murder, many offences are geographically weighted, says Dr Burger.
Of the 18,438 house robberies in South Africa last year, 8,122 were in the province of Gauteng, which includes Johannesburg. The likelihood of being a victim is twice the national average there.
nowhere near eligible to be better than the UK
fucking morons


< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 12/18/2012 8:46:23 AM >


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:32:16 AM   
Moonhead


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It's "Fail" not "Wail" guys.

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:38:02 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
Oh, I dealt with it all right. I pointed out how this absurd "let's talk about a completely different country" parallel is the real straw man. I also pointed out how everybody attempting that straw man doesn't have a single shred of input on the points of the actual topic, and invited anybody who actually had something to say other than "look at X... look how perfect it is" to step forth and bring it. Unsurprisingly, crickets... and of course one Canadian Goose honking more "DEAL WITH IT... DEAL WITH IT"



The reason we bring in a comparison with other countries is because, you silly asshat, it just proves that arms restrictions DO work - which is where all you gun-toting NRA supporters are saying that it doesn't.

But you can't find any quotes or sources where it categorically states it doesn't work, can you.
You just spout your views with no backup evidence.
If you have some - let's see it, from reputable and legitimate sources.


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:39:46 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


Oh, I dealt with it all right. I pointed out how this absurd "let's talk about a completely different country" parallel is the real straw man. I also pointed out how everybody attempting that straw man doesn't have a single shred of input on the points of the actual topic, and invited anybody who actually had something to say other than "look at X... look how perfect it is" to step forth and bring it. Unsurprisingly, crickets... and of course one Canadian Goose honking more "DEAL WITH IT... DEAL WITH IT"



Im not canadian, I just happen to live here.
and you are just pissy cos no one has given you what you want, and instead shows comparisons between other countries that share the same problems america does WITHOUT the guns.

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:41:35 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's "Fail" not "Wail" guys.


Where I live, it's known as the "Daily Wail" - in south east UK.
It was also known as the "Daily Wail" when I lived in the east midlands too.

Either way, it's not a reliable or well-informed source.


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:48:37 AM   
jlf1961


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Okay this did not concern guns, and was in a time that was pre-gun but:

Under Edward Longshanks, the law was that the citizens of Scotland could not own weapons of any sort.

Like I said, pre gun. Same basic concept.

And yes, Australia banned guns and ended mass shootings.

Then they had to ban swords and as one poster pointed out, they have a bunch of regulations concerning knives now.

I dont think that eliminating guns in private ownership is the answer, not when you consider the number of illegally owned guns in the hands of street gangs in the US.

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:50:26 AM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1



The reason we bring in a comparison with other countries is because, you silly asshat, it just proves that arms restrictions DO work - which is where all you gun-toting NRA supporters are saying that it doesn't.

But you can't find any quotes or sources where it categorically states it doesn't work, can you.
You just spout your views with no backup evidence.
If you have some - let's see it, from reputable and legitimate sources.





Reading is fundamental, my intellectual dwarf. Page 3 post 59.

Assault Weapons and Hi cap mags WERE BANNED here in the US for 10 years. The HIGHEST trend of school massacres ensued, and I posted a 10 year list of those. Do grab the booster seat, hit the back button and READ before commenting. I'll be holding my breath waiting for your logical explanation as to how the legislation completely failed in preventing this activity last time but by some feat of wonder it will work now.

What do you think... think you can manage an intelligent logical response to THAT point or do you wish to join the "um, er, DEAL WITH IT" in the peanut gallery?

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:58:09 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:


Assault Weapons and Hi cap mags WERE BANNED here in the US for 10 years. The HIGHEST trend of school massacres ensued, and I posted a 10 year list of those. Do grab the booster seat, hit the back button and READ before commenting. I'll be holding my breath waiting for your logical explanation as to how the legislation completely failed in preventing this activity last time but by some feat of wonder it will work now.


Not so fast there, smutpeddler, nobody flashes pictures of dicks and dongs at WonderWartHog and lives...


I will not blithely accept a causality unexamined.   In short, I do not buy your assumptions, so I do not buy your deal.

How are these interrelated, and how is it a failure other than it might not be a strong enough action?

Credible citations, show your work.

BTW, I buy and sell guns, am an FFL and so I am not one of those ANTI-GUN NUTS, so don't disparage me with that instead of providing a cause and effect.


(removed a hyphen, by god that word can stand on its own)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/18/2012 9:00:13 AM >


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 8:59:09 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1



The reason we bring in a comparison with other countries is because, you silly asshat, it just proves that arms restrictions DO work - which is where all you gun-toting NRA supporters are saying that it doesn't.

But you can't find any quotes or sources where it categorically states it doesn't work, can you.
You just spout your views with no backup evidence.
If you have some - let's see it, from reputable and legitimate sources.





Reading is fundamental, my intellectual dwarf. Page 3 post 59.

Assault Weapons and Hi cap mags WERE BANNED here in the US for 10 years. The HIGHEST trend of school massacres ensued, and I posted a 10 year list of those. Do grab the booster seat, hit the back button and READ before commenting. I'll be holding my breath waiting for your logical explanation as to how the legislation completely failed in preventing this activity last time but by some feat of wonder it will work now.

What do you think... think you can manage an intelligent logical response to THAT point or do you wish to join the "um, er, DEAL WITH IT" in the peanut gallery?


As far as I am aware (and please point me to something that contradicts my premise here), there are NO states in the US, neither before that ban, during or since, that enacted the type of strict laws of gun control/ownership that the UK and Australia did.
What they did back in 1994 in the US was barely a token measure by comparison and had little or no effect at all.


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:14:39 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:15:09 AM   
Pulpsmack


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Look up California and Pre-Heller DC laws, then look at the results of that legislation and tell me those regulations were "token" regulations.

And on that note of "token vs strict laws" what exactly are you peddling?

You mean to suggest that due to a collection of whackos, that the answer is to regulate ALL handguns AND rifles out the hands of law-abiding citizens, including those already owned?


Good fucking luck. Not only is that ABSOLUTELY impossible, that moronic suggestion us o par with banning gasoline for private use (public transportation and police exempted) because of a rash of school arsons.

- NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
- NOT SOLVING THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM/SICKNESS
- NOT EVEN A REMOTE APPLICATION IN EQUITY

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:19:20 AM   
shannie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Yes. Let's get SERIOUS about gun control and safety in our school.



Point 1: Machine Guns were developed in WWI. Assault Rifles were Developed at the end of WWII. BOTH were legal to own by the American public since their inception until the Machine Gun Ban of 1986, yet there were no rampant UZI maulings in schools during the 60s and 70s. Thus, if one is SERIOUS about the issue (s)he understands that guns are obviously NOT the factor of these epidemics.


Point 2: The school shooting trend became "en vogue" during the mid-1990s, when not only did a MG ban exist, but a federal Assault Weapons AND High-Capacity magazine ban was in place as well, demonstrating that these bans do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop these horrific outbreaks, because even the deranged don't call off a murderous rage because the weapon of choice is illegal.


Point 3: Even when legal, virtually all, if not, EVERY single school shooting occured on a campus that displayed a "FIREARMS FREE ZONE" sign making possession or carry of such weapons illegal. Fascinatingly enough, these signs and the force of law behind them did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop ANY of these murderous rampages. However, they actually were effective for something: these Firearms free zones effectively enjoin(ed) qualified students, faculty, and employees from lawfully carrying the firearm they have a legal permit to carry... the tool that used in that instant could have turned a tragedy of 17, 30, or more dead to perhaps 3. Thus, as with point 2, the ONLY effect this idiodic legislation has is on the people who stand to defend these bystanders.


Point 4: Ignoring the fundamental Right behind the Second Amendment (and why it was drafted in the first place), Regulating and banning firearms is an impossibility in this country. The Machine Gun Ban and the Assault Weapons ban (that expired in '04) did not elimate firearms. They prevented the manufacture and sale of new weapons to the public. ALL this accomplished was made the pre-existing weapons more expensive to those who would legally buy the pre-owned weapons while the would-be criminals could choose between buying the expensive pre-existing ones or illegally converting/stealing these tools.


Point 5: In furtherance of point 4, consider the war on drugs. This nation, local law enforcement and the federal DEA have had no success in keeping our streets and our schools free of illicit narcotics. We cannot keep undocumented aliens out of this country, we cannot keep illicit substances from flowing across the border(s). Once a market existed for firearms (under the delusion law enforcement could claim all the domestic ones), how difficult would it really be to smuggle weapons into this country.




Thus, when looking at gun control and the safety of our schools SERIOUSLY, we find it is a nonsensical distraction that has ZERO effect in keeping our children safe and even acts as an obstacle from a qualified and legally permitted individual or employee from saving our children's lives, preventing him/her from carrying that permitted weapon and stopping the crime as it unfolded. If in fact you do want to be SERIOUS about this issue, quit scapegoating the instrumentality and look to the conditions that are actually causing these deranged individuals to act this way.



Extremely well said. But it's falling on deaf ears. The media/government uses these school shootings to incite the masses to call for gun control. (Why mention the 30 kids who die in car accidents EVERY DAY? It wouldn't serve the agenda.) And it works perfectly. Every genocide is preceded by the disarming of the citizenry. Then it won't be one madman killing 20 kids. It will be a totalitarian government slaughtering thousands or millions. Look at the Rape of Nanking. The disarmed population slaughtered like sheep. History is replete with such examples. The Cosmic Wounds. Modern Americans call this far-fetched thinking, but this is exactly the reasoning underlying the Second Amendment. The masses are armed against the possibility of a brutally oppressive government. When the masses are disarmed, the government knows they are governing helpless sheep. Terrible things flow from that. Far worse things, even still, than 30 kids killed a day in car accidents. or 25 killed by a madman.



< Message edited by shannie -- 12/18/2012 9:20:32 AM >

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:20:26 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic



Quoted because it deserved to be(and something my son mentioned to me yesterday).

I wish to add that the first responders so hailed today....belong to a union.

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:21:59 AM   
mnottertail


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Exception: many states made it illegal during the gangster era to own machine guns.  It worked, many states are free of gangster activities.  

I agree it isn't the guns themselves.



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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:25:20 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Look up California and Pre-Heller DC laws, then look at the results of that legislation and tell me those regulations were "token" regulations.

And on that note of "token vs strict laws" what exactly are you peddling?

You mean to suggest that due to a collection of whackos, that the answer is to regulate ALL handguns AND rifles out the hands of law-abiding citizens, including those already owned?


Good fucking luck. Not only is that ABSOLUTELY impossible, that moronic suggestion us o par with banning gasoline for private use (public transportation and police exempted) because of a rash of school arsons.

- NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
- NOT SOLVING THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM/SICKNESS
- NOT EVEN A REMOTE APPLICATION IN EQUITY


HA HA HA HAHAHA...
Forgive me if I piss myself laughing.


That's what they said in the UK and Australia.
When the government just swept away the consitution on gun ownership and replaced it with new laws, those pro-gun advocates were laughing on the other side of their face.
And it wasn't a collection of whacko's either.

Are you aware that less than half the US civilian population still own guns compared to nearly 70% only a decade ago??
You are pissing into a minority pot my friend.

If there are enough people wanting it, it will be done whether you like it or not.
In the inimitable words of Picard, "make it so...", and your voice will fall on deaf ears and not be heard.


And both countries proved that it was NOT impossible to do such a thing

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:43:49 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1



The reason we bring in a comparison with other countries is because, you silly asshat, it just proves that arms restrictions DO work - which is where all you gun-toting NRA supporters are saying that it doesn't.

But you can't find any quotes or sources where it categorically states it doesn't work, can you.
You just spout your views with no backup evidence.
If you have some - let's see it, from reputable and legitimate sources.





Reading is fundamental, my intellectual dwarf. Page 3 post 59.

Assault Weapons and Hi cap mags WERE BANNED here in the US for 10 years. The HIGHEST trend of school massacres ensued, and I posted a 10 year list of those. Do grab the booster seat, hit the back button and READ before commenting. I'll be holding my breath waiting for your logical explanation as to how the legislation completely failed in preventing this activity last time but by some feat of wonder it will work now.

What do you think... think you can manage an intelligent logical response to THAT point or do you wish to join the "um, er, DEAL WITH IT" in the peanut gallery?

Your claim seems to be at variance with reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States#1990s

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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:57:50 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay this did not concern guns, and was in a time that was pre-gun but:

Under Edward Longshanks, the law was that the citizens of Scotland could not own weapons of any sort.

Like I said, pre gun. Same basic concept.

And yes, Australia banned guns and ended mass shootings.

Then they had to ban swords and as one poster pointed out, they have a bunch of regulations concerning knives now.

I dont think that eliminating guns in private ownership is the answer, not when you consider the number of illegally owned guns in the hands of street gangs in the US.

But to still bang on about illegal guns is wearing thin jlf.

Both the UK and the Aussies proved that dramatically restricting private gun ownership did in fact drastically reduce mass murders and gun crimes in general.
In the case of Australia - they completely eradicated the mass killing problem.

Nobody is saying that it will eradicate gun crime completely, but to spout that it must be 100% or nothing is a bit of a moronic standpoint to take given the intended goals.
And it is precisely this attitude that has forced a complete stalemate between the pro and anti gun groups for decades.

That is also what Obama said in his speech; "we can't tolerate this any more".
So something quite radical needs to done seeing as the NRA and it's gun-toting followers have failed miserably to achieve anything to stop such Friday events happening.
And whilst I readily agree and acknowledge that a lot of gun owners are quite responsible with their weapons (and also why they can't see any problem with owning them), there are also an awful lot of gun owners who are not so vigilant.

Sure, the underlying problem is probably seated in mental health and all the issues surrounding that.
But to get a cure based on mental health reforms is going to take a huge bucket of money and a long calendar before anything positive is likely to be seen in gun crime figures.
And getting the budget approval for that stands even less chance in congress than getting radical gun reforms approved.
Apart from which, no amount of mental health programs are going to remove those times when someone, usually quite sane, just suddenly snaps and goes off-the-wall.
Strong gun laws would stop the incidents, or at least drastically reduce them, in such cases as these - as the new laws in the UK and Australia have proven beyond any doubt.

Early this morning on the BBC news, the leader of the opposition party (Ed Milliband), said that in the last 12 months the UK had 39 gun-related deaths. He also speculated that there were far more than that happening on a daily basis in the US.
That's a 365:1 disparagy between the two nations.
We have very strict gun laws, the US doesn't.
Doesn't that comparison of gun-related deaths tell you anything??


Severe gun restrictions work.


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RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in ou... - 12/18/2012 9:59:52 AM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Look up California and Pre-Heller DC laws, then look at the results of that legislation and tell me those regulations were "token" regulations.

And on that note of "token vs strict laws" what exactly are you peddling?

You mean to suggest that due to a collection of whackos, that the answer is to regulate ALL handguns AND rifles out the hands of law-abiding citizens, including those already owned?


Good fucking luck. Not only is that ABSOLUTELY impossible, that moronic suggestion us o par with banning gasoline for private use (public transportation and police exempted) because of a rash of school arsons.

- NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
- NOT SOLVING THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM/SICKNESS
- NOT EVEN A REMOTE APPLICATION IN EQUITY


HA HA HA HAHAHA...
Forgive me if I piss myself laughing.


That's what they said in the UK and Australia.
When the government just swept away the consitution on gun ownership and replaced it with new laws, those pro-gun advocates were laughing on the other side of their face.
And it wasn't a collection of whacko's either.

Are you aware that less than half the US civilian population still own guns compared to nearly 70% only a decade ago??
You are pissing into a minority pot my friend.

If there are enough people wanting it, it will be done whether you like it or not.
In the inimitable words of Picard, "make it so...", and your voice will fall on deaf ears and not be heard.


And both countries proved that it was NOT impossible to do such a thing


So, we have gone from the initial point of "Here's the problem, what's the working solution?" to "Here's the problem... what is the most ass backwards 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' solution to address it?"


We also had forced sterilization of the subjectively defined "mentally retarded" and the physical enslavement of of certain peoples here in this country's past. Are those up for consideration in this thread along with every stupid, repugnant "solution swallows the problem as the greater of both evils" now?

If nothing your point only underscores mine... you can't "restrict" these weapons as proposed to have any meaningful impact on the issue... you must instead turn the Constitution on its ear, rob the entire population of its right to bear arms, confiscate legal property and do a voo doo chant in hopes the nut bags don't figure out how to get black market hardware to unleash on the completely defenseless population.

Bravo.

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