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RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 4:14:46 AM

ermood

Posts: 267
Joined: 9/20/2012
Status: offline

quote:

Any country that works against their own perceived self interests soon becomes the victim of another country's perceived self interests. Just ask Suriname, Curacao, Aruba, the Transvaal, Java, the Celebes...

Changing parties in power matters not a whit, it is simply a game to distract the lumpen.

Did they not teach world history in your schools?

Ofcourse they did;)

But over here we have for example people that support the US, Israel ect. and we've also got a party that doesn't support them, if that party would win, the Netherlands would change its intrest to countries like China, Russia, the South-American countries ect.

So yes i our country there is a difference... and this is in a lot of countries but apperently not in the US... but i guess that's becouse of the major media propaganda there.

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 241

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 4:18:37 AM

ermood

Posts: 267
Joined: 9/20/2012
Status: offline

quote:

Chomsky's point is that US citizens are not kept well-informed on world events by their so-called free media

Not only US citizens... here in the Netherlands is also noticeable...
The only news that comes from the middle east for example is all about Syria, but in both Saudi-Arabia as in Bahrain are riots to..
But becouse they are "friends" of the "west" it doesn't get showed on tv in the hope that those gouverments crush the opposition within a short time.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 242

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 4:40:40 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Did they not teach world history in your schools?

Chomsky's point is that US citizens are not kept well-informed on world events by their so-called free media. So perhaps you could ask that question of yourself.

Are you implying that the Euro press has de facto been any more effective than the US media?

No. You keep on making this irrelevant response, as though it's OK for the US to do anything as long as others do it or have done it in the past.

The point I am echoing is Chomsky's, who is a US citizen is saying that US citizens are not informed about their Nation's foreign affairs by their media. That neither says nor implies anything whatsoever about any other media.

If I was an American citizen and the country's leading intellectual made that argument to me, my response would not be to argue with the messenger but to check its veracity. And if the argument was validated by the facts, then I would be seriously concerned, not trying to engage in some weird or stupid national chauvinism as an excuse for the failures of the US media and consequent ignorance of US citizens about what happens in their names.

I tend to agree with Chomsky in that the US public has been largely ill-informed by its media, although it's not as if the information hasn't been available. If people wanted to, they could seek out alternative sources of information, and this is especially easy now that we have the internet.

Before the internet was really widespread, people had to rely on the radio/TV networks and their local newspaper for information, and that was quite limited in its scope. But even back then, it was still possible to get information from other sources.

I think what's happening today is not that people are ignorant or that there's a lack of information. It's that there's a lack of reliable and unbiased information. It's sometimes hard to tell who is telling the truth and who is not. It's hard to tell who has an ax to grind and who doesn't.

I think what I find interesting about US media is that a large part of it is geared towards talk shows. It's not rooted in the reporting of facts as much as it is garnering sound bites and opinions of what other people think about these facts. That's how the media can influence public opinion. A lot of "news" programs have a few minutes of the top stories, while the talking heads just spout off their opinions most of the rest of the time.

Even when they report disasters or tragedies, it comes down to the same basic style. Like if there's a major traffic accident, I would be more concerned about how it happened and more factual details about the accident, but the reporters only want to concentrate on the emotional tragedy and get quotes of people who are obviously upset and grieving.

If they can show people crying on camera, that makes their whole day. Who cares about the facts?

The media want emotion, opinion, people crying or yelling at each other at the top of their lungs. They don't want to report facts.

However, it's hard to blame the media when it's the general public which eats all of that up. If people don't like what the news media or entertainment media have to offer, then they have other choices. They don't have to buy their product. Newspapers are getting hit hard by competition from the internet. It's hard to "sell" news when there are so many out there willing to give it away for free (with paid advertising, of course).

Of course, when considering alternative media and other sources of information, one has to be just as careful and skeptical. The so-called "mainstream media" have an interest in discrediting alternative media and making them look like a bunch of fringe conspiracy theorists. Likewise, I've seen people in internet discussions argue over sources, over which ones are "reputable" and which ones are supposedly "fringe." Even media institutions have morphed into political entities of a sort.

But beyond what the people actually know or don't know from the media is that there is a large segment of the population which feels that they've done well here in America, live the good life, and they accept the system and what the government does in their name. They're not inclined to bite the hand that feeds them, and that's where a lot of the "ignorance" comes from. It's not really "ignorance" as much as it is pragmatism.

That was one of the big arguments during the anti-war protests of the 1960s, because it was thought that the "hippies" were living good lives in a wealthy nation, enjoying every benefit and luxury, so why were they questioning what was done in their name? That's a very strong belief that a lot of people still hold. It's believed that we're living well here in America and that we should just accept that the government does what it has to do for our well-being. This is usually followed by the standard "love it or leave it" admonishment.

There's an old saying in politics: "When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow." Once Americans got hooked by the luxurious, comfort-driven consumerist lifestyle, then they'd happily accept anything they're told. Whether or not they actually believe all the bullshit or whether Americans are truly as ignorant as they seem is beside the point, as it's more a way of finding internal peace and ignorant bliss. "Don't worry, be happy" was the mantra during the 1980s, and there's still quite a bit of that.

So, I would say that Chomsky is only partially correct. Many Americans may live a lie because they're afraid of losing what they have.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 243

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 4:55:15 AM

IgorsHand

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Remember, King George was the "Arch-Treasurer and Prince Elector of the
Holy Roman Empire and c, and of the United States of America." See: Treaty of
Peace (1738) 8 U.S. Statutes at Large. Great Britain which is the agent for
the Pope, is in charge of the USA 'plantation.'

I don't know where you get this information from but its bizarre. George was a protestant monarch and Britain a protestant country. Even today a Catholic can't sit on the throne.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 244

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 7:44:21 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgorsHand

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Remember, King George was the "Arch-Treasurer and Prince Elector of the
Holy Roman Empire and c, and of the United States of America." See: Treaty of
Peace (1738) 8 U.S. Statutes at Large. Great Britain which is the agent for
the Pope, is in charge of the USA 'plantation.'

I don't know where you get this information from but its bizarre. George was a protestant monarch and Britain a protestant country. Even today a Catholic can't sit on the throne.

your understanding is backward, its not the catholic in control of the throne its the thone annexed to the catholic and the us.

In the most general sense; If you made some agreement with some government or some entity to perform some duty for them or them for you that would be considered "agency".

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/7/2013 7:50:10 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to IgorsHand)

Post #: 245

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 8:07:55 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgorsHand

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Remember, King George was the "Arch-Treasurer and Prince Elector of the
Holy Roman Empire and c, and of the United States of America." See: Treaty of
Peace (1738) 8 U.S. Statutes at Large. Great Britain which is the agent for
the Pope, is in charge of the USA 'plantation.'

I don't know where you get this information from but its bizarre. George was a protestant monarch and Britain a protestant country. Even today a Catholic can't sit on the throne.

your understanding is backward, its not the catholic in control of the throne its the thone annexed to the catholic and the us.

In the most general sense; If you made some agreement with some government or some entity to perform some duty for them or them for you that would be considered "agency".

I think you are talking nonsense now. Britain's royalty papist or an agent of the pope, is just laughable when you consider Britain's history.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 246

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 8:09:06 AM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

That level of naivete is astonishing.

First, there is no 'US' media, there is a media monopoly, where a few multinational mega-corps own the majority of the outlets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bagdikian
That monopoly is directed in the US by Conrad Black and Rupert Murdoch, both of whom were born in other countries.

Second, the factors that motivate the media and dictate their policies are universal... profits, and sensationalism.

Third, the factors that motivate politicians and dictate national policies around the world are universal... there is a reason that Acton's observation is called an 'axiom'.

Fourth, empire building and neo-colonialism are established and documented facts of human history, you can't just hand wave them away.

And last, pointing out that human beings follow immutable rules of behavior no matter what lines are drawn on a map, isn't saying that any of it is 'all right'... in fact, quite the opposite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Did they not teach world history in your schools?

Chomsky's point is that US citizens are not kept well-informed on world events by their so-called free media. So perhaps you could ask that question of yourself.

Are you implying that the Euro press has de facto been any more effective than the US media?

No. You keep on making this irrelevant response, as though it's OK for the US to do anything as long as others do it or have done it in the past.

The point I am echoing is Chomsky's, who is a US citizen is saying that US citizens are not informed about their Nation's foreign affairs by their media. That neither says nor implies anything whatsoever about any other media.

If I was an American citizen and the country's leading intellectual made that argument to me, my response would not be to argue with the messenger but to check its veracity. And if the argument was validated by the facts, then I would be seriously concerned, not trying to engage in some weird or stupid national chauvinism as an excuse for the failures of the US media and consequent ignorance of US citizens about what happens in their names.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 247

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 9:14:32 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think you are talking nonsense now. Britain's royalty papist or an agent of the pope, is just laughable when you consider Britain's history.

Um no, I do not consider historians, I only consider legal documents.

The Definitive Treaty of Peace 1783

In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse , between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony; and having for this desirable end already laid the foundation of peace and reconciliation by the Provisional Articles signed at Paris on the 30th of November 1782, by the commissioners empowered on each part, which articles were agreed to be inserted in and constitute the Treaty of Peace proposed to be concluded between the Crown of Great Britain and the said United States, but which treaty was not to be concluded until terms of peace should be agreed upon between Great Britain and France and his Britannic Majesty should be ready to conclude such treaty accordingly; and the treaty between Great Britain and France having since been concluded, his Britannic Majesty and the United States of America, in order to carry into full effect the Provisional Articles above mentioned, according to the tenor thereof, have constituted and appointed, that is to say his Britannic Majesty on his part, David Hartley, Esqr., member of the Parliament of Great Britain, and the said United States on their part, John Adams, Esqr., late a commissioner of the United States of America at the court of Versailles, late delegate in Congress from the state of Massachusetts, and chief justice of the said state, and minister plenipotentiary of the said United States to their high mightinesses the States General of the United Netherlands; Benjamin Franklin, Esqr., late delegate in Congress from the state of Pennsylvania, president of the convention of the said state, and minister plenipotentiary from the United States of America at the court of Versailles; John Jay, Esqr., late president of Congress and chief justice of the state of New York, and minister plenipotentiary from the said United States at the court of Madrid; to be plenipotentiaries for the concluding and signing the present definitive treaty; who after having reciprocally communicated their respective full powers have agreed upon and confirmed the following articles.
Article 1:

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

and of course there are all different levels and types of sovereigns just like there is the ceo, pres and janitor of any other corporation.

States or estates, are fictions in law, a title like the name of a corporation, contract or trust written on paper lasts forever, hence the creation of the artificial entity that never dies that the aristocracy (kings) used to create the underlying perpetuity of progenitor and for their posterity.

These contracts run silent and beneath the general government overlays. Precisely what is being done to iraq and afghanastan as we speak under english law, the justification for evicting others off their rightful land overtly or covertly under ancient hebrew law.

Article 2:

And that all disputes which might arise in future on the subject of the boundaries of the said United States may be prevented, it is hereby agreed and declared, that the following are and shall be their boundaries, viz.; from the northwest angle of Nova Scotia, viz., that angle which is formed by a line drawn due north from the source of St. Croix River to the highlands; along the said highlands which divide those rivers that empty themselves into the river St. Lawrence, from those which fall into the

farming and fishing being a great source of revenue was something of huge importance to the estates or states which ever you prefer, this was before the creation of taxing districts, the proprietors of the plantation estates had huge monetary interests at stake, each acting as a manor sovereign in their own right, hence the fighting over boundaries and anything else to do with money and or power.

The US and United States of America both "acknowledge" the people to be free and sovereign in america too. Yet they still have to OBEY and are subject to the law of the land as well as franchised citizens. The state owns the soil, the people have a bastardized form of feodal usufruct of the land and tenements. People buy estate rights, not soil, never aware of the underlying trusts and contracts that are the core of their government. The people never voted for any constitution the estate owners did. The people being sovereign does not abolish the underlying contracts and trusts, not now nor in 1783, or 1791.

In fact the constitution insures the parties that have pending or existing contracts and trusts etc, that they will be honored.

Like any other corporation in receivership they simply reorganized us commoners had nothing to do with it then or now. (well we get to vote for our new set of kings like german heritage)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/paris.asp

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/7/2013 10:10:43 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 248

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 10:09:20 AM

IgorsHand

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America

That is just a title, the Holy Roman Empire was basically defunct hundreds of years before George III was born, he was in fact the heir to the Dukedom of Brunswick which the Holy Roman title came with it, rather like a party hat and the King of France bit was just an inherited title from the 100 years war when English and French claimed eachothers thrones. Louis XVI being the actual King of France until he lost his head. Titles are pretty meaningless and never described political power since Cromwell and Co had Charles I head on the block. The power was all Parliament's.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 249

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 10:23:19 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgorsHand

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America

That is just a title, the Holy Roman Empire was basically defunct hundreds of years before George III was born, he was in fact the heir to the Dukedom of Brunswick which the Holy Roman title came with it, rather like a party hat and the King of France bit was just an inherited title from the 100 years war when English and French claimed eachothers thrones. Louis XVI being the actual King of France until he lost his head. Titles are pretty meaningless and never described political power since Cromwell and Co had Charles I head on the block. The power was all Parliament's.

contractual agreements, contracts, trusts, resultant actions under said contracts and trusts speak for themselves, opinions notwithstanding.

sorry I do not buy into lay constructions, although under certain specific circumstances I may be able to agree with you in part.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/7/2013 10:26:04 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to IgorsHand)

Post #: 250

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 11:05:01 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Um no, I do not consider historians, I only consider legal documents.

You are right for once, you dont consider historians, nor history, nor legal documents that actually matter.

Lets not forget your insistance that the concentration camps of WW2 had Olympic swimming pools for the victims of the holocaust

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 251

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 1:55:03 PM

IgorsHand

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

contractual agreements, contracts, trusts, resultant actions under said contracts and trusts speak for themselves, opinions notwithstanding.

sorry I do not buy into lay constructions, although under certain specific circumstances I may be able to agree with you in part.

Neither did Charles I and Loius XVI and they ended up losing their heads.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 252

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 4:39:47 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

and of course there are all different levels and types of sovereigns just like there is the ceo, pres and janitor of any other corporation.

States or estates, are fictions in law, a title like the name of a corporation, contract or trust written on paper lasts forever, hence the creation of the artificial entity that never dies that the aristocracy (kings) used to create the underlying perpetuity of progenitor and for their posterity.

These contracts run silent and beneath the general government overlays. Precisely what is being done to iraq and afghanastan as we speak under english law, the justification for evicting others off their rightful land overtly or covertly under ancient hebrew law.

I fully intended not to get involved with this baseless drivel, especially the bolded part.

But thats fine, now everyone can see it really is baseless......and drivel.

(in reply to IgorsHand)

Post #: 253

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 9:10:28 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

Then dont get involved, the world will be a happier place for it.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 254

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 9:42:31 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IgorsHand

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

contractual agreements, contracts, trusts, resultant actions under said contracts and trusts speak for themselves, opinions notwithstanding.

sorry I do not buy into lay constructions, although under certain specific circumstances I may be able to agree with you in part.

Neither did Charles I and Loius XVI and they ended up losing their heads.

which king was it? edward maybe who pledged all the property of england to the church? With the norman conquest many sax land owners were required to sign on with the king with a pledge of allegiance. No different than any immigrant who wanted to own land in america had to pledge themselves as lieges' to a rag. At lease with a king you all have a head to chop off, we dont, we just have a rag to burn.

Yeh kings tend to lose their heads when they get to close to God and as God becomes tyrannical.

They used to have bishops (parsons) on staff (as the kings conscience) who in a manner of speaking had nearly as much power as the king himself in ecclesiastic matters. Well that brought in lots of cash and kings being the greedy fuckers kings are figgered out a way to get rid of the parsons and bring all law under one umbrella by commingling church and state then abolishing the parsons hence the creation of Equity as a replacement.

I am sure with the way things are going around the US lots of kings would be missing heads about now for the way they are selling us down the river.

The true beauty of a democracy is that people are lazy and you can run it with a plutocracy because lazy people get a warm cozy feeling that they are involved because they got off their lazy asses long enough to vote in their new rulers every few years and not for what is best for the country but who will give them entitlements. Even college edumacated people cant break the traditional thought and use their noggin enough to understand the difference.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to IgorsHand)

Post #: 255

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 9:45:20 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

That level of naivete is astonishing.

First, there is no 'US' media, there is a media monopoly, where a few multinational mega-corps own the majority of the outlets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bagdikian
That monopoly is directed in the US by Conrad Black and Rupert Murdoch, both of whom were born in other countries.

Second, the factors that motivate the media and dictate their policies are universal... profits, and sensationalism.

Third, the factors that motivate politicians and dictate national policies around the world are universal... there is a reason that Acton's observation is called an 'axiom'.

Fourth, empire building and neo-colonialism are established and documented facts of human history, you can't just hand wave them away.

And last, pointing out that human beings follow immutable rules of behavior no matter what lines are drawn on a map, isn't saying that any of it is 'all right'... in fact, quite the opposite.

The level of ignorance displayed here is more than astonishing.

Asserting "that human beings follow immutable rules of behavior no matter what lines are drawn on a map" is a sure sign that a stellar level of ignorance about human behaviour is being deployed. There are no universals of human behaviour. If you believe you know some, best write a thesis about it and astonish every Social Science faculty. Clearly your 'talents' are wasted here.

Whitewashing imperialism as "immutable human behaviour" would appeal to the Hitlers and other fascists of this world. Ultimately this claim is utterly irresponsible - it implies that nations are neither responsible nor accountable for their own choices. Sheer idiocy.

_____________________________

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 256

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/7/2013 10:20:05 PM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

I see we are talking at cross purposes.

I'm discussing real life, where the facts are documented exactly as I've laid them out.
On this planet power does corrupt, history does repeat itself, and comic book good (or bad) nations/races don't exist. Lord Acton, George Santyana, Rudyard Kipling, Bertrand Russel et al. knew wherof they spoke.
The cycle of empire, oppression, and war has remained unchanged for all of recorded history. Don't take my word for it, you can look it up.

Now that you've clarified that you are referencing an idealized world where war mongering, powermongering, and othering are not universal traits, I understand why you haven't been able to provide any references, the way I have. Your faith based beliefs are figments of the imagination, and fanciful notions.
By pretending that the worst human behaviors aren't at all connected to innate parts of the human condition, you are carrying water for atrocities, and I don't care to waste any more time trying to discuss human history with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

That level of naivete is astonishing.

First, there is no 'US' media, there is a media monopoly, where a few multinational mega-corps own the majority of the outlets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bagdikian
That monopoly is directed in the US by Conrad Black and Rupert Murdoch, both of whom were born in other countries.

Second, the factors that motivate the media and dictate their policies are universal... profits, and sensationalism.

Third, the factors that motivate politicians and dictate national policies around the world are universal... there is a reason that Acton's observation is called an 'axiom'.

Fourth, empire building and neo-colonialism are established and documented facts of human history, you can't just hand wave them away.

And last, pointing out that human beings follow immutable rules of behavior no matter what lines are drawn on a map, isn't saying that any of it is 'all right'... in fact, quite the opposite.

The level of ignorance displayed here is more than astonishing.

Asserting "that human beings follow immutable rules of behavior no matter what lines are drawn on a map" is a sure sign that a stellar level of ignorance about human behaviour is being deployed. There are no universals of human behaviour. If you believe you know some, best write a thesis about it and astonish every Social Science faculty. Clearly your 'talents' are wasted here.

Whitewashing imperialism as "immutable human behaviour" would appeal to the Hitlers and other fascists of this world. Ultimately this claim is utterly irresponsible - it implies that nations are neither responsible nor accountable for their own choices. Sheer idiocy.

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 1/7/2013 10:37:09 PM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 257

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/8/2013 1:55:37 AM

Edwynn

Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Did they not teach world history in your schools?

Chomsky's point is that US citizens are not kept well-informed on world events by their so-called free media. So perhaps you could ask that question of yourself.

Are you implying that the Euro press has de facto been any more effective than the US media?

No. You keep on making this irrelevant response, as though it's OK for the US to do anything as long as others do it or have done it in the past.

No I didn't. I most explicitly laid out what NONE of the press in any country are telling us.

How you could possibly take that as my claiming that "it's OK for the US to do that" or any other infantile nonsense is troublesome, to say the least.

In the first place, I go to the trouble of laying out the details of the mechanism of the current destruction to an extent that politicos are incapable of, and that pisses you off, apparently. Secondly, I have never used past history of whatever other country as any exculpatory justification for what is transpiring at present, but rather to bring to people's attention that this is an ongoing process that neither France nor Britain (England, for those who insist) were able to stop, and we still have not been able to stop it, whatever the host country this virus resides in at present.

If you think that there is anything in all my posts here that proposes that what the US does "is OK because everybody else did it" and thereby indicate that you are incapable of understanding all the great detail that I have given in evidence of how the country has gone so wrong, then there is no discussion to be had with you.

There are things we, the world, need to know that none of the media, in any country, are willing or able to supply us with (and Chomsky is incapable of; I've read the guy more than 20 years ago, 5 years ago, he is useless).

There is enough info to make politicos happy, and then there is information that might enable citizens to attempt rational decisions.

The media, in all Western countries, supply us with a flood of the former, a few occasional crumbs of the latter.

Given the harsh and rabid response here (such as yours) to some actual detail of how the "coalition of the willing" actually came about, and the mechanics behind it, it is no wonder that we find ourselves in this situation.

I'll make it plain; it's not about the idiocy that transpired in the past, it's about the idiocy that is transpiring right now.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/8/2013 2:56:45 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 258

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/8/2013 2:42:10 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Then dont get involved, the world will be a happier place for it.

But less honest.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 259

RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against ter... - 1/8/2013 3:39:45 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The better term is jingoism.

Being appalled by the actions of corrupt politicians and their cronies should apply across the board, not just across borders (or party lines, etc.).

I agree, although as I mentioned in my response to Tweakebelle, I think there are a lot of Americans who are cynically jingoistic. They support the US government because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 260

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