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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:06:19 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Then we are back to unsecure schools. Honestly, while the idea of Cops in schools.. and I do mean police officers, not trained mall cops, isnt a bad one, I simply dont see where the money is going to come from.


tazzy from what I can tell the average police salary in the US today is around $50,000. The average cost of education of a student for a year ranges from $11,000 to $18,000. I find it hard to believe the average school could not afford 3 or 4 new students...So why not afford a police officer?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/23/2012 5:07:33 AM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 6:48:43 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So thats the same as here then. Cops either need a warrant or the householders permission.



There are also exigent circumstances, where one cop goes to the back door and yells, "help," and the other cop kicks in the front door...

The real biggie on warrants came down from the Supreme Court 20 odd years ago (in a drug case, naturally), and, in direct contradiction of the 4th Amendment, a search warrant can be issued based on hearsay evidence.



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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 7:40:23 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		A Justice Department study found the Assault Weapons Ban was responsible for a 6.7 percent decline in total gun murders. However, since the 2004 expiration of the bill, assault weapons have been used in at least 459 incidents, resulting in 385 deaths and 455 injuries.

That is a little more than 57 incidents a year involving assault weapons.

Now in 2005, 11346 people were killed in crimes using a gun.

Somehow people have got their priorities screwed up.

I am all for effective, reasonable and comprehensive gun laws.

Currently there are five main gun laws on the Federal books, with 88,413 words in them.

If you want to read the ATF overview, then go here.

There is an estimated 20,000 gun laws ranging from federal to town level in the US.

It is also estimated that every gun owner at least once a day, violates a gun law simply because the various laws supersede or contradict each other.

Might I suggest that instead of adding yet another law to the books, you gun control advocates get your congressmen to get all the existing laws on the same page and working together, you might actually accomplish something.




< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 12/23/2012 7:57:54 AM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 9:34:21 AM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		The preliminary report said that the number of such incidents was going down in 2002. That measurement cannot be relied on forever.

Knowledge is not static. Once a number or a rate has been observed in a study does not mean it never changes in later years. Just because some of the factors in these events are the same, doesn't mean that nothing can ever change.

And as pointed out over, and over, and over, at least one of those people factors has changed dramatically, and as a result the rate of events cannot rationally be expected to stay at the 2002 reported decline forever.

I don't know what game you are playing by linking to a current article that says absolutely nothing to support your claim that the number of such incidents is still declining as in the 2002 report.



quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Knowledge isn't dated like fresh fruit. The studies commissioned by the Secret Service were basically repeated and almost identical conclusions reached this year. This one didn't even mention access to guns as a factor, assessing threats the most important, just as the SS conducts all it's past and present efforts.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121219152705.htm
Both studies reach the same end, it's the PEOPLE who do the violence we have to identify early and manage or treat. Once the fully formed conception to do mass violence is present, they still have to be identified first and intercepted.
What tools they use are factors of ease of access and what's in mind, largely from media publicity. The latter is more important in forming the original intention, something the calls for yet more gun controls ignores completely. The key fact that has to be changed is people deciding to commit mass murder. Attempting to change that fact by controlling One of the many options for mass murder doesn't address the base issue and distracts what resources are available to a pointless gain.
Ask Any LEO if he thinks enough guns and magazines can be removed from American society to make a difference. The one I discussed this with today agreed that ship has sailed! His point that any craftsman can fabricate functional large magazines alone invalidates much of the current hysteria. The isolated urban theorists simply don't understand the numbers or the attitudes and considerations of the people who do have what the media has chosen to label 'assault weapons'. Nor how little difference they have with conventional prior firearms in real scenarios.
I'm not that impressed by the NRA and others proposals for armed security people in schools. The armed guard simply becomes the necessary first target in the school attack. Without teams at each school, it's just a simple initial tactical step in the attack plan. The cost was roughly estimated earlier in one of the gun control threads and is likely indigestible in today's restricted financial reality for local governments. Unfortunately, realistic threat assessment is probably even more costly, but has the clear advantage of a good likelihood of actually Working.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 12/23/2012 9:35:07 AM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 9:44:30 AM   
cloudboy


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Who from CM can we add to the list?




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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 9:49:58 AM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		It seems unfair to leave the NY Post out of the debate:






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< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/23/2012 9:50:13 AM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 9:54:40 AM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Start with the fact that the real world cost of any employee is closer to double their pay.
For police, add in the cost of equipment and training, and as mentioned above, multiply by the number of officers needed for every size of school, plus rotation for vacation, in service training, time in court, sick days etc.

So you would be talking about more like half a million annual dollars in cost to a school of any size (and that would only be if greedy administrators and politicians didn't get a whiff of this big pot of money just waiting to be raided).


There are something like 120,000 K-12 schools in the US, so adding 5 - 6 officers for each school (to provide full and effective coverage instead of an ineffective token presence) would almost double the number of police in the country.

And there is no causal logic to prove that any of that would be effective at stopping the next determined suicider from taking out a bunch of kids one way or another.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Then we are back to unsecure schools. Honestly, while the idea of Cops in schools.. and I do mean police officers, not trained mall cops, isnt a bad one, I simply dont see where the money is going to come from.


tazzy from what I can tell the average police salary in the US today is around $50,000. The average cost of education of a student for a year ranges from $11,000 to $18,000. I find it hard to believe the average school could not afford 3 or 4 new students...So why not afford a police officer?

Butch



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"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 10:02:58 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

tazzy from what I can tell the average police salary in the US today is around $50,000. The average cost of education of a student for a year ranges from $11,000 to $18,000. I find it hard to believe the average school could not afford 3 or 4 new students...So why not afford a police officer?

Butch


Total Schools in the Public School System in Pittsburgh...54
K - 5 - 22
K - 8 - 12

If we are only talking about placing a police officer in elementary schools... 34 needed.

District Overview
Pittsburgh Public Schools is the largest of 43 school districts in Allegheny County and second largest in Pennsylvania. We serve approximately 25,000 students in Kindergarten through Grade 12 in 54 schools.

Here is a map of the school districts just in my county....



The one above with 54 schools is but one district. Some of the schools are moderately sized. Some are massive.

And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well.

Im not discounting the need for such measures. Im just trying to figure out how schools are going to pay for these things. And with cuts in the budget....

2012 General Fund Budget
$529.8million


2013 Proposed General Fund Budget
$521.8 million

http://www.pps.k12.pa.us/14311012513041797/blank/browse.asp?a=383&BMDRN=2000&BCOB=0&c=63291&14311012513041797Nav=|&NodeID=5038

This is just for one school district....

After cutting $860 million from PA public schools in 2011-12, Gov. Corbett called for an additional cut of $100 million in his proposed 2012-2013 state budget.

http://www.psea.org/apps/budget/budgetimpact.aspx

Im not saying the cuts were not needed, or called for.

I am merely pointing out that money is exceptionally tight.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 10:21:11 AM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Spare us the usual dishonest tap dance.
The topic under discussion was children choking. In medical research child mortality rates for choking are measured in the age 1 to 5 cohort, as documented earlier.

Your assertion on that topic about massacres being ignored was a false analogy, you were called on it.
Now you are being called on your numerous attempts to derail useful discussion in favor of schadenfreude.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

All *what* massacres of children aged 1 to 5?


Ignoring is what you've done to every single post offering up rational, scientific, and useful proposals for discussion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Every five days, a child in the United States chokes to death while eating. Even more children die after swallowing items like balloons and small toys.


So thats okay then..........lets just ignore all these massacres instead of doing something about it.





Massacres with an "s" plural........ You mentioned age, not me. Oh wait, older dead people dont count, right ?




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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 10:21:43 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I was out at a, "secure facility," on Friday. Gates, fences, cameras, a couple staff members with firearms in their desks, and absolutely nothing that would stop a determined attacker who figured it was a good day to die.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 10:34:57 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

So you would be talking about more like half a million annual dollars in cost to a school of any size (and that would only be if greedy administrators and politicians didn't get a whiff of this big pot of money just waiting to be raided).


I think you are far exaggerating the costs...lets just say all additional benefit and insurance costs outside of salary for a $50,000 employee would generously equal an additional $20,000. This would include certifications and training.

In our town local police often fill in as security at various business and colleges around town to obtain SS benefits and could easily substitute for sick days and vacations.

As for the number needed per school the size of the student population would determine the guards needed. The larger the school to more financially enabled they are through local taxes and state aid.

This is very doable and affordable in my view it just takes organization and perhaps a federal mandate for public schools to provide.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/23/2012 10:35:48 AM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 10:41:11 AM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

A Justice Department study found the Assault Weapons Ban was responsible for a 6.7 percent decline in total gun murders. However, since the 2004 expiration of the bill, assault weapons have been used in at least 459 incidents, resulting in 385 deaths and 455 injuries.

That is a little more than 57 incidents a year involving assault weapons.

So by doing the math some 48 people are killed and some 56 injured per year since the assault weapons 2004 expiration...I take it you don't care about these people death and injuries?

There is an estimated 20,000 gun laws ranging from federal to town level in the US.

You are quoting the NRA which is wrong, there is only about 3,000 federal, state and town laws concerning guns.



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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 10:55:03 AM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Who from CM can we add to the list?





According to the NRA their membership is about 4 million, or a little over 1% of the population. It is estimated that 1.1% of the US population suffers from Schizophrenia. Draw your own conclusions

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:02:33 AM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I was out at a, "secure facility," on Friday. Gates, fences, cameras, a couple staff members with firearms in their desks, and absolutely nothing that would stop a determined attacker who figured it was a good day to die.


Just to add, Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed guards on campus, in fact at Columbine armed security officers exchanged gun fire with the attackers... considering the results, a lot good armed guards in both cases did.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:06:09 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Armed guards in school is a fools errand, too expensive at best, and how many armed guards are fucking nuts anyway? Cops have one of the highest rates of spousal abuse around, I do NOT want cops around kids, almost as bad as priests!

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:07:35 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		However, after reading some of you, you are often poster children for the opposite sides

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:21:15 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Armed guards in school is a fools errand, too expensive at best, and how many armed guards are fucking nuts anyway? Cops have one of the highest rates of spousal abuse around, I do NOT want cops around kids, almost as bad as priests!

These cops? These are the cops we want to put in our schools? These are the guys who are going to protect our children?

No thanks. You folks can keep your kids "safe" this way if you want. In my mind "safety" includes not being attacked with chemical weaponry.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:24:25 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I was out at a, "secure facility," on Friday. Gates, fences, cameras, a couple staff members with firearms in their desks, and absolutely nothing that would stop a determined attacker who figured it was a good day to die.


Just to add, Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed guards on campus, in fact at Columbine armed security officers exchanged gun fire with the attackers... considering the results, a lot good armed guards in both cases did.

Are you sure that they were good armed guards? If they were competent, surely neither they, nor anybody else, would have got shut by the tooled up nuts causing trouble...

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:28:59 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		If you want to know why some of us dont trust BATF or their statistics, read the wikipedia section on batf and specifically the controvery section. They are routinely censored for pejury in court. While I cant stand his politucs, read wikis section on Ruby Ridge.

Now I know wiki isnt definitive but it at least tends to try and be middle of the road.

If you ever watched Sons of Anarchy where the atf agent shoots her lover? That happened in Sacramento in real life. They are a rogue agencg.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 11:29:40 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Then we are back to unsecure schools. Honestly, while the idea of Cops in schools.. and I do mean police officers, not trained mall cops, isnt a bad one, I simply dont see where the money is going to come from.


tazzy from what I can tell the average police salary in the US today is around $50,000. The average cost of education of a student for a year ranges from $11,000 to $18,000. I find it hard to believe the average school could not afford 3 or 4 new students...So why not afford a police officer?

Butch

The idea,in order to have any merit at all would need to place an officer in all of our schools.
I object to this on a number of levels.
a)it would not be the fool proof 100% guarantor of our childrens safety as many seem to feel it would,schools are diffuse,sprawling places.
One Officer could not be expected to secure their entirety
b) does the idea of our children seeing America as an armed camp strike anyone as a "good thing " ?
c) Adapt this course of action...how does doing so preclude us from having a discussion about new and stringent gun control laws ?
d) Those folks that are pushing this plan are doing so as an alternative to discussing legislation....the next step is ,IMO ,an "arms race" in our schools.
The first time some officer is gunned down by a better armed sicko,the cry will go out that said offecer should have been armed with this or that weapon....where are we going with all of this ?
e) Place a cop in our schools....inevitably what you will get is some schools being patrolled by officers deemed unfit for actual patrol.


But the bottom line for me is having this discussion as a way of not having the other,more pressing discussion(the fact that this country has a gun problem) is a band aid placed over a gun shot wound(pun intended)

last thing I want to mention,in todays paper I read that at least one of the victims of Sandy Hook was buried wearing gloves...her/his little fingers having been blown off from what is known as defensive wounds(though sadly,fingers ,especially little ones,are wholly uneffective defensively )
And at least one casket needed to be closed due to the fact that thier wasn't much left of one of the young faces.

Gruesome facts to be sure...but necessary(IMO) to the conversation.

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