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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 3:32:52 PM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

All things considered, the FBI does its best to be rather professional. The tranny may have ignored the mob and rewarded groupthink a bit heavily but their ethos as an agency is pretty upright.

Anyone in the wine or firearms industry knows what crazy cowboys ATF agents are

Hasbro, sons of anarchy IS a TV show, good call. The crazy, murderious, lying evil bitch ATF agent is an amalgam
of REAL LIVE agents plus an incident in Sacramento where one agent shot another he was sleeping with, either out of fear of being outed or being left, I cant remember which.

Disbanding ATF and putting firearms under the FBI would drop gun crime by a signifixant number in five years and even more in 10.



So we are still basing everything on a TV show. Sounds like what happen in Sacramento was personal. Then again I remember the real life conviction of a State Policeman who murdered his wife because she was going to divorce him and that would mean she get some of his pention. As to the FBI they have there problems too. There is no reason to believe disbanding the ATF and or having the FBI take over have any signifiant effect. By the way you are aware the ATF is part of the Secret Service? And that ATF is under the Department of the Treasury where the FBI is under the Department of Justice.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 12/23/2012 3:54:02 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 3:35:11 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		If we are going to have to do this with everybody pitching everything on one thread, it's definitely time to speed up the scrolling.

_____________________________

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 3:57:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

As far as police coming into homes go. Not in this country. We don't much like uninvited strangers with guns coming into our houses. Less so government sent armed strangers.


They cant do that here either, with or without a gun unless they have a valid court order. I suspect the same is true in the US or are you suggesting cops with a warrant cant enter private premises ?

Again you miss the point re the police inspection. If I need a gun and can justify the need, I apply for a license. Getting that is dependent on satisfying the fact I have a need, and allowing the police to see I have a secure place to keep it.



No if they have a warrant they can enter.


and to get a warrent you need to prove probible cause beyond they have a gun

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:02:12 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Nobody is born with the right to have a gun - right back to before the days of flintlocks and beyond.
You were given that right by the 2nd amendment


See? This is the communication barrier. Of course we are not born with a right to own a gun. What is inherent is the right to individual self-defense, be it from a nasty-tempered deadly snake in my yard (and educate yourself on Mojave Rattlesnakes, if you choose to challenge the need to do that), an intruder in my home, or defending myself from tyranny, because the government knows the population has the means to rise up.

The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed. That doesn't give me anything I didn't already have. It denies the government the power to try and take it away.



I don't see it as a communication barrier at all.
I see it as a willful obstruction of democracy.

You don't need a gun to kill or remove a snake - any snake.

You don't need a gun to ward off an intruder.
In a land where guns are not the norm, your intruder isn't likely to be armed.
See where I'm coming from here??

You don't need a gun to defend against tyranny either.
Throughout history, reigns and realms have been overthrown without the use of guns. Fact.


So now you're only left with the 2nd to defend your pro-gun stance.
"The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed".
And that is set in stone?? I don't think so.
It's just this typical asshat backwards thinking that holds a whole country to ransom and sends it backwards.
It's just another law that is able to be repealed and abolished by those wishing it.

If the majory wanted to ban weapons, then it will happen - regardless of the 2nd.

Isn't this how a democracy should work??
If the majority don't get to influence the laws and governance of a country, it is no longer a democracy.
And we are witnessing such uprisings against dictatorships all through the middle east.

Do you honestly want the US to be viewed by the rest of the world as a dictatorship regime controlled by a few with purse strings?

That situation would certainly destroy what is known as "The American Dream".

Good luck to you is all I can say.


they will be armed maybe not with a gun but a teenager with a knive has a bigger edge over a 62 year old wiyh a knive than if both have guns, in fact with guns I have the edge due to experiance

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:17:32 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

and to get a warrent you need to prove probible cause beyond they have a gun


And for the last 20 years, the finding of probable cause can be based on hearsay evidence, in whole or in part.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 285
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:27:48 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Spare us the usual dishonest tap dance.
The topic under discussion was children choking. In medical research child mortality rates for choking are measured in the age 1 to 5 cohort, as documented earlier.

Your assertion on that topic about massacres being ignored was a false analogy, you were called on it.
Now you are being called on your numerous attempts to derail useful discussion in favor of schadenfreude.



Blatant lying over my posts just makes you look stupid.

Stop your bleating and read my posts again. The topic in question was/is massacres/gun control. I havent made one post regards chocolates, other than the one to you copied.

Nothing schadenfraude about dead kids. This is just an obnoxious strawman to try and support your dopey argument.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:28:15 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well.


tazzy how much above your base salary are your benefits... I addressed that in an earlier thread.
I doubt that all benefits and training would equal $20,000...still just an equal of 5 extra students on average total

It is doable it would just take budgeting. Even if additional tax were required for a district i think it would be a very small tax increase that would pass overwhelmingly...You are just making it too complicated.

My school districtd gets much of its support from real estate taxes... they have a rate that they can increase without the vote of the people... they would have no problem adding guards...and very few at that because they already have them without a tax increase.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/23/2012 4:36:25 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 287
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:29:28 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I was out at a, "secure facility," on Friday. Gates, fences, cameras, a couple staff members with firearms in their desks, and absolutely nothing that would stop a determined attacker who figured it was a good day to die.



Yet some on here and the NRA suggest arm guards would prevent future similar events from happening.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:33:24 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

and to get a warrent you need to prove probible cause beyond they have a gun


No one said otherwise.

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 4:46:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well.


tazzy how much above your base salary are your benefits... I addressed that in an earlier thread.
I doubt that all benefits and training would equal $20,000...still just an equal of 5 extra students on average total

It is doable it would just take budgeting. Even if additional tax were required for a district i think it would be a very small tax increase that would pass overwhelmingly...You are just making it too complicated.

My school districtd gets much of its support from real estate taxes... they have a rate that they can increase without the vote of the people... they would have no problem adding guards...and very few at that because they already have them without a tax increase.

Butch




BENEFITS
The City of Pittsburgh offers a wide variety of benefits to Police Officers, including:

Salary
$13.69 per hour while in Training Academy
$40,896 Police Officer First Year Salary for 2012

Uniform Allowance
Pension Plan
Life, Health, Dental and Vision Insurance
Paid Holidays and Vacation
Credit Union Membership
Voluntary Retirement Savings (457) Plan
Tuition Assistance



http://www.pittsburghpa.gov/personnel/police

Are we really going to put in a first year police officer?


On the tax issue.... reassessment's were just done here... and many are going to court over that issue. I dont think they can squeeze much more out of property tax at this time.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/23/2012 4:49:20 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 290
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:15:04 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well.


tazzy how much above your base salary are your benefits... I addressed that in an earlier thread.
I doubt that all benefits and training would equal $20,000...still just an equal of 5 extra students on average total

It is doable it would just take budgeting. Even if additional tax were required for a district i think it would be a very small tax increase that would pass overwhelmingly...You are just making it too complicated.

My school districtd gets much of its support from real estate taxes... they have a rate that they can increase without the vote of the people... they would have no problem adding guards...and very few at that because they already have them without a tax increase.

Butch




BENEFITS
The City of Pittsburgh offers a wide variety of benefits to Police Officers, including:

Salary
$13.69 per hour while in Training Academy
$40,896 Police Officer First Year Salary for 2012

Uniform Allowance
Pension Plan
Life, Health, Dental and Vision Insurance
Paid Holidays and Vacation
Credit Union Membership
Voluntary Retirement Savings (457) Plan
Tuition Assistance



http://www.pittsburghpa.gov/personnel/police

Are we really going to put in a first year police officer?


On the tax issue.... reassessment's were just done here... and many are going to court over that issue. I dont think they can squeeze much more out of property tax at this time.



You may also want to consider over-time. Here there are some OC Sherriffs Deputies making over $100,000 a year thanks to over-time. You would be surprised at how much a Pension Plan would cost the public, especially when it is one that reqires contributions from both sides. Also medical insurance goes up and up and up. Another thing to consider is the disability, many Police officers do not make their 20 years but leave due to a medical disablity and they have a very good one.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 12/23/2012 5:16:55 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:16:15 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		We dont have enough police officers as it is. Im sure they are all on overtime.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:27:29 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

If you ever watched Sons of Anarchy where the atf agent shoots her lover? That happened in Sacramento in real life. They are a rogue agencg.


The Sons of Anarchy is a TV show..not real life....


Maybe finish reading the paragraph, Nosathro?

Power corrupts, Michael. Pretty much any government agency with an enforcement arm has the potential to go rogue. You've been mentioning the FBI lately, but perhaps a little Wikipedia exploration on their history would be in order for you. There was this Hoover guy...



Well let see now, you mention Hoover, all the things he did, like lie, blackmail, spy on people who were said anything about him he did not like (that part of 1st Admendment you know). The FBI labatory making false reports. The FBI agent who was spying for the Chinese, then there is the FBI agents who let a known criminal gang run wild, they claim the leader was providing information but no arrests were ever made, I could go on, you are right, power does corrupt.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:38:15 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

No, they were showing why the 2nd amendment backs up the 1st amendment so when the government stops using pepper spray...like they did at kent state, waco, etc...


Kent State was back before pepper spray. There were several lawsuits filed in the Kent State shooting, however all were dismissed, on the film the juries heard the students yell "Charge" and run toward the National Guard who had warned them. There is no evidence that the 2nd Amendment was created to protect the 1st. The agruements for the 2nd Admendment were to counter tyrannical governments.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:46:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

No, they were showing why the 2nd amendment backs up the 1st amendment so when the government stops using pepper spray...like they did at kent state, waco, etc...


Kent State was back before pepper spray. There were several lawsuits filed in the Kent State shooting, however all were dismissed, on the film the juries heard the students yell "Charge" and run toward the National Guard who had warned them. There is no evidence that the 2nd Amendment was created to protect the 1st. The agruements for the 2nd Admendment were to counter tyrannical governments.

Thomas Jefferson would disagree, in fact he did

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 5:49:06 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I have been saying $50,000 as a national average higher than your example why are you posting a rebuttal that makes no sense? I gave an exaggerated benefit amount of $20,000. The total of $70,000 would only equal 6 national average students. Almost any district can afford 6 more students per school so I’m sure they could afford a police guard will little trouble. And if not the single salary per school spread over the whole distinct would most likely be pennies on the dollar tax increase if necessary. Can you imagine any district voting down this type of proposal…even though it would not be necessary in the vast majority of school districts.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/23/2012 5:51:23 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 6:06:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I have been saying $50,000 as a national average higher than your example why are you posting a rebuttal that makes no sense?


Salary
$13.69 per hour while in Training Academy
$40,896 Police Officer First Year Salary for 2012



Pittsburgh
Full-time employees: 3,148
Number making $100,000 or more last year: 196
Top 10 earners in 2009
1. Jerome R. Wasek, paramedic crew chief, $174,880.99
2. Harry J. Scherer, fire deputy chief, $148,339.95
3. Mark J. Goob, police detective, $144,254.16
4. Michael J. Mullen, fire deputy chief, $143,872.43
5. William G. Haines, police sergeant, $142,370.03
6. Charles J. Lenz, fire battalion chief, $141,618.61
7. Thomas J. Atkins, police lieutenant, $141,339.91
8. Daniel P. Hennessy, fire deputy chief, $139,732.16
9. Terry A. Pryor, police officer, $136,682.66
10. John H. Soderberg, paramedic crew chief, $136,531.22


Number making $100,000 or more last year: 32
Top 10 earners in 2009
1. Karl E. Williams, medical examiner, $180,250.20
2. Stephen A. Zappala Jr., district attorney, $156,565.96
3. Marc K. Cherna, human services director, $155,149.05
4. Dennis M. Davin, economic development director, $150,149.05
5. Abdulrezak M. Shakir, deputy medical examiner, $149,474.20
6. Terry L. Hediger, county homicide detective, $133,518.33 (retired Dec. 15)
7. Todd M. Luckasevic, associate medical examiner, $132,637.18
8. Baiyang Xu, associate medical examiner, $129,156.57
9. Russell E. Strathen, jail corrections officer, $118,855.76
10. Perry Vahaly, police sergeant, $113,076.11


Read more: http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_683612.html#ixzz2Fvl7VRm9
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

Dec. 15--Officials from Western Pennsylvania towns, where some police officers earn $100,000 a year, are scrutinizing public safety costs that can consume half the annual budget.

Patrol officers in Monroeville, for example, earned an average of $105,471, including overtime, in 2010. Their compensation was tops in the state among more than 900 police departments, municipal finance experts say.

Monroeville patrol officers must be on the job four years now, instead of three, before they reach the top-scale pay of $96,000. Their base salary remains $52,000.

Moon paid starting officers $56,034 in 2010, although patrol officers earned an average $94,168 with overtime. Upper St. Clair officers' starting salary was $47,944, but patrol officers earned an average $85,403 with overtime. Moon employs 30 officers; Upper St. Clair, 27.

http://insurancenewsnet.com/article.aspx?id=313566#.UNe3C-TAfv4

Now, add your benefits of 20,000 (which I think is a little low, but ok) and you are quickly at 100,000 an officer with experience... which is the only one's who should be patrolling the schools.

Overtime adds up. We dont have enough cops as it is.

Shrugs.... Im done trying to explain something that should be simple to understand with budget cuts and not enough police.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/23/2012 6:08:41 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 6:14:10 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Here's about the only way I justify SRO's (School Resource Officers)
Our town has about 14,000 people. During the day, there are about 12-15 officers on shift which is about 1/1000 people.
The HS has about 1000 students and staff.
Kinda makes sense to put a cop where about 1000 people are concentrated.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 6:31:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		All depends on how the school is designed. My high school had one main building, 2 stories, then 4 pods, connected by walkways, both stories, uncovered. Last year, the enrollment there was 7,700(total for the county)

The schools here in Pittsburgh are unlike anything I am used too... but Im told they are sorta like the one's in NY... some classes are here.. some there... they drive or take the bus to get to the different campuses if needed. Even with just student size, one district here has 25,000 students among 54 schools.... there are 43 districts in Allegheny County.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/23/2012 6:32:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Here's about the only way I justify SRO's (School Resource Officers)
Our town has about 14,000 people. During the day, there are about 12-15 officers on shift which is about 1/1000 people.
The HS has about 1000 students and staff.
Kinda makes sense to put a cop where about 1000 people are concentrated.

or you could eliminate a couple of assistant superentendents who don't improve education anyway

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 300
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