RE: All things gun control go here (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 7:49:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And as for raptor's silly argument about "There has been to my recollection, no hostile forces on american soil (terrorist cells notwithstanding)..."; it has to be pointed out that the whole of "American" history is barely just over 2 centuries old - which for most of the rest of the world is pretty damned recent.

And perhaps you have forgotten some part of your history??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Aleutian_Islands
So that makes it "...no hostile forces on american soil since August 1942...".



There was that business with the Canadians invading and burning the Whitehouse as well, come to that. That whole "this is Texas, no it isn't it's Mexico" Alamo thing seems germane as well.




NuevaVida -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 8:48:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

A convicted killer, who shot dead two firefighters with a BUSHMASTER ASSAULT RIFLE after leading them into an ambush when they responded to a house fire he set in Western New York, left behind a typewritten note saying HE WANTED TO "DO WHAT I LIKE DOING BEST, KILLING PEOPLE," police said.

William Spengler, 62, set his home and a car on fire early Monday morning WITH THE INTENTION OF SETTING A TRAP TO KILL FIREFIGHTERS AND TO SEE "HOW MUCH OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD I CANi BURN DOWN," according to the note he wrote and which police found at the scene. The note did not give a reason for his actions.

Spengler, who served 18 years in prison for beating his 92-year-old grandmother to death with a hammer in 1981, hid Monday morning in a small ditch beside a tree overlooking the sleepy lakeside street in Webster, N.Y., where he lived with his sister, police said today in a news conference.

That woman, Cheryl Spengler, 67, remains missing and may also have been killed, police said.

As firefighters arrived on the scene after a 5:30 a.m. 911 call on the morning of Christmas Eve, Spengler opened fire on them with THE BUSHMASTER, THE SAME SEMI-AUTOMATIC, MILITARY-STYLE WEAPON USED IN THE DEC. 14 RAMPAGE KILLING OF 20 CHILDREN IN NEWTOWN, CONN.


ABC-News

While using his Bushmaster to kill the firefighters, I wonder if he felt "manly", like the manufacturer said he would in their advertisements?

What is interesting to me about this, and I didn't see it mentioned (my apologies if it was and I missed it), is the media seems to want to highlight the Bushmaster as a main issue here. What about the concept that the gun laws already in place did not prevent a convicted killer who had served time from owning and/or possessing a gun?

Doesn't matter what kind of firearm he used, does it? We want to add new gun laws when we are failing at upholding the ones we already have.




lovmuffin -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 9:59:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

A convicted killer, who shot dead two firefighters with a BUSHMASTER ASSAULT RIFLE after leading them into an ambush when they responded to a house fire he set in Western New York, left behind a typewritten note saying HE WANTED TO "DO WHAT I LIKE DOING BEST, KILLING PEOPLE," police said.

William Spengler, 62, set his home and a car on fire early Monday morning WITH THE INTENTION OF SETTING A TRAP TO KILL FIREFIGHTERS AND TO SEE "HOW MUCH OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD I CANi BURN DOWN," according to the note he wrote and which police found at the scene. The note did not give a reason for his actions.

Spengler, who served 18 years in prison for beating his 92-year-old grandmother to death with a hammer in 1981, hid Monday morning in a small ditch beside a tree overlooking the sleepy lakeside street in Webster, N.Y., where he lived with his sister, police said today in a news conference.

That woman, Cheryl Spengler, 67, remains missing and may also have been killed, police said.

As firefighters arrived on the scene after a 5:30 a.m. 911 call on the morning of Christmas Eve, Spengler opened fire on them with THE BUSHMASTER, THE SAME SEMI-AUTOMATIC, MILITARY-STYLE WEAPON USED IN THE DEC. 14 RAMPAGE KILLING OF 20 CHILDREN IN NEWTOWN, CONN.


ABC-News

While using his Bushmaster to kill the firefighters, I wonder if he felt "manly", like the manufacturer said he would in their advertisements?

What is interesting to me about this, and I didn't see it mentioned (my apologies if it was and I missed it), is the media seems to want to highlight the Bushmaster as a main issue here. What about the concept that the gun laws already in place did not prevent a convicted killer who had served time from owning and/or possessing a gun?

Doesn't matter what kind of firearm he used, does it? We want to add new gun laws when we are failing at upholding the ones we already have.







Your point is valid but what about the concept that if he murdered somebody he should have still been behind bars.




NuevaVida -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 11:01:13 AM)

He served 17 years for killing his grandmother with a hammer. Our system is flawed. Gun control laws aren't going to solve the problem. Dealing with criminals, gang bangers and the mentally ill more appropriately will do more to prevent these acts than new laws will. I believe more laws will simply create a bigger black market for firearms, but won't stop the problem. They will only create more laws to break.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 11:05:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I believe more laws will simply create a bigger black market for firearms, but won't stop the problem. They will only create more laws to break.


And that is why so many of us non-US, anti-gun, citizens are advocating that you should at least try the extreme bans - at least until you have managed to produce better protection against the mentally ill and those that may "snap" without warning.





NuevaVida -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 11:16:07 AM)

There are approximately 1 million gang members in the US. Do you believe they will abide by a gun banishment law?




LizDeluxe -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 11:40:22 AM)

There are approximately 3 million semi-automatic rifles in private ownership in the US. The vast majority of those firearms (and we're talking almost 100%) have never and will never be used in an unlawful fashion. A ban on these weapons is really akin to amputating at the knee to treat a bunion.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:03:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

There are approximately 1 million gang members in the US. Do you believe they will abide by a gun banishment law?

No, I don't expect that they will.
Your gangs are no different to the gangs in the UK.

The difference is, it's soooo much harder to get a gun, any gun, in the UK.
In the US, you just stroll into a gun shop or Walmarts and buy one off the shelf.
I have never even seen a gun shop over here and you certainly can't just walk into any supermarket and buy a gun - you'd have trouble finding even a replica.

So.... not so many guns to be found, either to buy legally or even to steal for use.
So your average robber isn't armed except for maybe a knife he stole from his mum's kitchen drawer.
Most of our gangs here aren't armed either.
Also, quite a few of our known-to-be-trouble-making gangs are rounded up at regular intervals and are searched. Any weapons, including knives, are confiscated and they go through our judicial system.





Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:06:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Also, quite a few of our known-to-be-trouble-making gangs are rounded up at regular intervals and are searched. Any weapons, including knives, are confiscated and they go through our judicial system.



We have a little thing called The Constitution that prevents the "round up the usual suspects commissioner" practices.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:06:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

There are approximately 3 million semi-automatic rifles in private ownership in the US. The vast majority of those firearms (and we're talking almost 100%) have never and will never be used in an unlawful fashion. A ban on these weapons is really akin to amputating at the knee to treat a bunion.

And if that bunion was just the root of a very malicious and highly intrusive/evasive cancer??
Then amputating at the knee to save the rest of your life would be justified.




SadisticPredator -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:10:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

There are approximately 3 million semi-automatic rifles in private ownership in the US. The vast majority of those firearms (and we're talking almost 100%) have never and will never be used in an unlawful fashion. A ban on these weapons is really akin to amputating at the knee to treat a bunion.

And if that bunion was just the root of a very malicious and highly intrusive/evasive cancer??
Then amputating at the knee to save the rest of your life would be justified.


No, it wouldn't. It would be gross malpractice. I understand you're desperate to make a point, but really, think for a second.




Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:10:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

There are approximately 3 million semi-automatic rifles in private ownership in the US. The vast majority of those firearms (and we're talking almost 100%) have never and will never be used in an unlawful fashion. A ban on these weapons is really akin to amputating at the knee to treat a bunion.

And if that bunion was just the root of a very malicious and highly intrusive/evasive cancer??
Then amputating at the knee to save the rest of your life would be justified.


You're showing your abject ignorance of medical science...............or just trolling.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:11:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Also, quite a few of our known-to-be-trouble-making gangs are rounded up at regular intervals and are searched. Any weapons, including knives, are confiscated and they go through our judicial system.



We have a little thing called The Constitution that prevents the "round up the usual suspects commissioner" practices.

And it is precisely your constitution that is responsible for the gun-related deaths.
Think about it.

You have 34 gun deaths every single day in the US.
We had just 39 for THE WHOLE YEAR!!
You have about 20x the number of gun deaths per capita compared to us here.

You allow guns. We don't (as a general rule).
You don't allow your police to check and search known trouble-makers?? We do.





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:13:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

There are approximately 3 million semi-automatic rifles in private ownership in the US. The vast majority of those firearms (and we're talking almost 100%) have never and will never be used in an unlawful fashion. A ban on these weapons is really akin to amputating at the knee to treat a bunion.

And if that bunion was just the root of a very malicious and highly intrusive/evasive cancer??
Then amputating at the knee to save the rest of your life would be justified.


You're showing your abject ignorance of medical science...............or just trolling.

If it was an 'ordinary' bunion, yes.

But that's not what I said. Try reading my post.




Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:17:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Also, quite a few of our known-to-be-trouble-making gangs are rounded up at regular intervals and are searched. Any weapons, including knives, are confiscated and they go through our judicial system.



We have a little thing called The Constitution that prevents the "round up the usual suspects commissioner" practices.

And it is precisely your constitution that is responsible for the gun-related deaths.
Think about it.

You have 34 gun deaths every single day in the US.
We had just 39 for THE WHOLE YEAR!!
You have about 20x the number of gun deaths per capita compared to us here.

You allow guns. We don't (as a general rule).
You don't allow your police to check and search known trouble-makers?? We do.



Well, noone told you that you have to live under our constitution, did they?
Noone is forcing you to come closer to us than an ocean away.
As for "known trouble makers" what defines a "known trouble maker". Is it someone that the cop just doesn't like the car they drive or the way they dress?
This is one of the reasons we decided almost 240 years ago that we didn't want to be part of your operation any more.

If you don't like the way that someone 2000 miles away lives, tough shit.
Personally, I think Brits are a bunch of stuck up prigs with bad teeth who cant cook to save themselves but you don't see me trying to get them to change their ways.




Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:23:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

There are approximately 3 million semi-automatic rifles in private ownership in the US. The vast majority of those firearms (and we're talking almost 100%) have never and will never be used in an unlawful fashion. A ban on these weapons is really akin to amputating at the knee to treat a bunion.

And if that bunion was just the root of a very malicious and highly intrusive/evasive cancer??
Then amputating at the knee to save the rest of your life would be justified.


You're showing your abject ignorance of medical science...............or just trolling.

If it was an 'ordinary' bunion, yes.

But that's not what I said. Try reading my post.


I did read your post. You're trying to make up for your medical ignorance by backtracking.

"Bunions involve enlargement and repositioning of joints at the ball of the foot."

"Bunions most commonly affect women. Some studies report that bunions occur nearly 10 times more frequently in women.. It has been suggested that tight-fitting shoes, especially high-heel and narrow-toed shoes, might increase the risk for bunion formation."

source. http://www.medicinenet.com/bunions/article.htm

Bunions are not associated with cancer.

If you want to be taken as someone who isn't prone to rants and hyperbole or just a common troll, at least get a few facts straight.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:28:48 PM)

Now lets see....
What would constitute 'known troublemakers'??

Those that are persistently caught doing the same old tricks time and again??
Maybe you could just call them dumb or plain stupid.
But more than likely, they are part of the same group of people that are always in the midst of trouble of some sort or another.
It may be a fight at a local pub, or someone getting mugged or picked on trying to walk home.
Or the local late-night shop getting hit with big shop-lifting sprees and they are always caught with the goods.
Could be any number of things. lol.
But our local cops know who they are and try to do something about it.
It would seem that in the US they just let them get away with that sort of nasty behaviour because the constitution doesn't allow the enforcement officers the legal ability to step in and inflict justice.

All I'm saying is that when the US bleats and wails about gun-related deaths, just like the NRA they want to blame anything but the gun.
I said it in another thread less than a week ago that it will happen again very soon after Newtown. It has. I rest my case. [8D]




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:34:45 PM)

I wasn't using bunions as a specific expletive or direct comparison.

That's why I said "And if that bunion was just the root of...." - meaning that I didn't consider it a bunion at all but in fact something completely different.


Talk about getting pernickety!!!

That's why flame wars start so easily on here.
People take thing far too literally or twist things so badly or out of context as to make no more sense.




Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:50:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I wasn't using bunions as a specific expletive or direct comparison.

That's why I said "And if that bunion was just the root of...." - meaning that I didn't consider it a bunion at all but in fact something completely different.


Talk about getting pernickety!!!

That's why flame wars start so easily on here.
People take thing far too literally or twist things so badly or out of context as to make no more sense.


Then use a real fact. For instance use the term "wierd mole". Use the term "bone swelling".
If one doesn't take things literally, how the hell is anyone supposed to communicate clearly?




Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/26/2012 12:54:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Now lets see....
What would constitute 'known troublemakers'??

Those that are persistently caught doing the same old tricks time and again??
Maybe you could just call them dumb or plain stupid.
But more than likely, they are part of the same group of people that are always in the midst of trouble of some sort or another.
It may be a fight at a local pub, or someone getting mugged or picked on trying to walk home.
Or the local late-night shop getting hit with big shop-lifting sprees and they are always caught with the goods.
Could be any number of things. lol.
But our local cops know who they are and try to do something about it.
It would seem that in the US they just let them get away with that sort of nasty behaviour because the constitution doesn't allow the enforcement officers the legal ability to step in and inflict justice.

All I'm saying is that when the US bleats and wails about gun-related deaths, just like the NRA they want to blame anything but the gun.
I said it in another thread less than a week ago that it will happen again very soon after Newtown. It has. I rest my case. [8D]

Again, what a cop calls "known troublemakers" can be anyone they want it to be. Have you ever had a cop just stop you for the hell of it for a made-up reason? I have. They don't like it when you let them know that their reason for stopping you isn't valid but that's tough shit.
In the WONDERFUL place you live in. They can still get you to empty your pockets, supply whatever they want and if they still don't like you, you get to go to the station and waste a day with them.

If you don't believe the police do that, you are naive beyond your years.

I'm not getting you guys to change that, go to the dentist or learn to cook.

There might be a lesson there.




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