RE: Abuse in the community (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 4:53:37 PM)

~fast reply~

I'd like to point out to the OP that nobody here is standing up for actual abuse. We are, however, defending our rights to have our own relationships as we see fit.

So to generic newcomers reading this thread... It's supposed to be a relationship. It's supposed to be good for everyone involved. If it isn't, then it isn't the right relationship for you. There are no other rules than that. Any statement of the form, "I am the dom so... " or "You are the sub so..." is just so much hot air. So what? Slapping a label on something does not change the underlying reality of it.

It may also be legally abusive in which case a women's shelter would be an excellent place to seek clarification and, if appropriate get started on pursuing legal action.



JeffBC -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:08:06 PM)

One more point to random readers... If you go over to fetlife and look at her story you'll see that she is young, leapt into a relationship with a genuine asshat and paid the price for that. What we are seeing here is the reaction to all that. She is now hoping to help other such women.

The strongest advice I can offer up is "don't give authority to an asshat" It sounds simple, right? But you'll need to actually have some discipline and avoid letting your tingly bits do your thinking. And by the way, one way subs "give authority" away is to "protectors" who are frequently the exact opposite of "protection". My honest advice there is that if you feel you need protection then you aren't ready for BDSM. This is an adult game with adult consequences. Like every extreme activity under the face of the sun... downhill skiing, skydiving, etc., the difference between life and death is YOU not someone else.

If you feel like you need a guide that makes total sense. Let me suggest someone that is not attracted to you and someone you are not attracted to. If you're a female submissive I'd get a more experienced female submissive as my guide. That way the fox isn't guarding the hen house. I have the same comment on "trainers".



tazzygirl -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:13:14 PM)

quote:

The way I see it (and believe me, I love to be kinky) there is a difference between an ass slap during sex or bondage, compared to being so bloody you can't walk out of the house the next day (that's happened to me!). When you have to cover up marks someone has left on you, there is a problem.
I would really like to put an end to this abuse.


Abuse, in this case, is subjective. Some would see one bruise as asbuse upon themselves. I know couples who have knock down brawls, with the woman begging the man to hit her harder.

Its too subjective to use your definition.




ServosCor -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:18:57 PM)

  Well for your first post you've picked an interesting subject.  I think the only one who can deem this to be an abusive relationship is the person who is living in the situation.  While you may view it as abusive, she & her Dominant partner may be very happy.  I have yet to see a case of 'true' abuse after nearly 15 yrs of being out and open in this life.  On the other hand, I know many MANY happy subbies out there who wear their marks proudly.
      
       Sometimes the best thing to do is step back and not get involved.  Unless you are specifically asked to help.
 
       ~servos cor~



poise -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:19:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
One more point to random readers... If you go over to fetlife and look at her story you'll see that she is young, leapt into a relationship with a genuine asshat and paid the price for that. What we are seeing here is the reaction to all that. She is now hoping to help other such women.

The strongest advice I can offer up is "don't give authority to an asshat" It sounds simple, right? But you'll need to actually have some discipline and avoid letting your tingly bits do your thinking. And by the way, one way subs "give authority" away is to "protectors" who are frequently the exact opposite of "protection". My honest advice there is that if you feel you need protection then you aren't ready for BDSM. This is an adult game with adult consequences. Like every extreme activity under the face of the sun... downhill skiing, skydiving, etc., the difference between life and death is YOU not someone else.

If you feel like you need a guide that makes total sense. Let me suggest someone that is not attracted to you and someone you are not attracted to. If you're a female submissive I'd get a more experienced female submissive as my guide. That way the fox isn't guarding the hen house. I have the same comment on "trainers".


This ought to be a sticky, and required reading for all women new to exploring BDSM.
I know this subject has been a stickler for you Jeff, and I'd like to thank you for posting this.
I can read it as though in the eyes of a newbie, and it makes a lot of sense to me.


Edited to add the post from JeffBC that I was referring to. [:D]



CelticPrince -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:30:34 PM)

quote:

I have found there is a lot of abuse happening in the BDSM community. I've experienced it personally, seen it with lots of my friends, and heard countless stories. I would like for everyone in the lifestyle to stop, take a moment and think about weather there relationship is abusive or not. Then think about if some of there friends relationships are abusive or not. Helping a friend is sometimes the most noble thing you can do. The way I see it (and believe me, I love to be kinky) there is a difference between an ass slap during sex or bondage, compared to being so bloody you can't walk out of the house the next day (that's happened to me!). When you have to cover up marks someone has left on you, there is a problem.
I would really like to put an end to this abuse. To all my subs: Submission is the greatest gift you can ever give someone, so don't give it up lightly!
Contact me if you need anything on here or Fet Life (DaddysOnly on Fet Life) I have groups on there I would love for people to join. If there is anything I can do to help anyone I will or even if you would like to share a story or want to hear mine, I'll be more than willing to share or listen.

Thanks! Love y'all!


xogirl,

consider what is really abuse and what is in most cases a need to be shown domination, those that do not need it soon revert back to the more normal actions of vanilla relationships.

CP



xoxogirl -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:32:43 PM)

I do understand I am young and fairly inexperienced; however, I have come to find that there are doms who take advantage of that label and use it to abuse women/subs for there pleasure. Any time someone is hitting another person in a way they don't enjoy it is abuse. And under the law anytime you lay a hand on someone it is battery in just about any state of the Union. Yes, there are some D/s relationships that work out beautifully. Again most young people just starting out in the lifestyle as a sub will end up like me; with a fucked up stories of abuse that happened to them because a psycho path wanted to label himself a "dom" and torture a young girl. Plus a "dom" isn't a legal title and wouldn't hold up in court. If there ever was an investigation and the only defense you had was "i'm a dom" it wouldn't hold up. And also all the bruises, cuts, burns, scars, and other things you may do to someone can seriously damage them. Blood clots from too hard of a spanking or nipple sucking or hickies. Cutting a vain. Burning someone to where they had no feeling. Plus STD's and bacteria is very common these days and no one wants that.
So again I think we should look at our relationships and make sure they aren't abusive. Thank you.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:34:37 PM)

Edit: (because I read it wrong)

To me the OP doesn't hold any intrinsic value . . . and to the contrary it promotes the concept that not being a volunteer but instead being a victim is normal enough to warrant a thread. It isn't normal or even common. It is mental illness not BDSM and should be treated as such. It has no place in the BDSM mainstream, it is for the pysch forums not CollarMe . . . in my humble opinion.



poise -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:39:29 PM)

I love you right back! And I can understand why you would disagree with me, as it seems to appear as
though I was saying the OP's post should be a sticky, when in fact I was replying to JeffBC. Pardon! [8D]



ResidentSadist -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:53:37 PM)

^ fixed it.... thanx for note



angelikaJ -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:54:47 PM)

Again, (and this is not to negate the experience of being in an abusive relationship), getting to know someone before you hand over authority is your responsibility.


When you are new and inexperienced, it is difficult to negotiate what you want and what you don't want.
Part of this is because the whole language of experience is an unknown.
However, that doesn't mean you just decide to trust the dominant partner because they command you to.

You are still responsible for communicating what will and will not work for you personally and for knowing the person well enough to choose to put your trust in him/her.

If you have not defined precisely how you want to be hit, it is not abuse when someone hits you differently from your unspoken desires.
If you have not communicated what is off limits, then when a limit is broken, it is poor communication and not abuse.

Too many submissive partners expect their D-type to be mind readers.
And to be fair, some D-types use the "I know you better than you know yourself" crap... and people sometimes fall for it.

It is our own responsibility to not provide predatory D-types with easy victims.
And the way to do that is to talk about non-sexual things and get to know the person before throwing all your trust into their basket.
(edit to add: I am making the suggestion to get to know someone by talking about non-sexual things because often "the sexual predator" won't hang around very long.)

In other words, fictional templates often bring on acute magical thinking.
Finding a balance within reality is much harder, but has a better chance of meeting your actual needs and wants.

But there is no shortcut to taking your time to get to know your possible partner, and anyone who is not willing to give you that time is likely not worth knowing.



SacredDepravity -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:58:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

captain safe a hoe.



Does he wear his underpants on the outside like a normal hero or is he freaky and just goes without?

Anyway, OP, I deal with real domestic violence on a regular basis and lived it before that. Intent is a huge and invisible spectre in the corner with this subject. If you have ever seen the Wheel of Abuse diagram, here it is:

http://www.domesticviolence.org/violence-wheel/

Every last one of those areas can be redefined under the construct of a power exchange or sadomasochistic relationship. Doing so is intentional and desired by both.

There is also the little discussion of hurt vs harm to consider. If these women have been harmed by what has been done to them, then I guess we can start looking at abuse as a viable word for what happened to them. Harm is unwanted, often irreparable, and intentional on the part of the doer. Hurt is something else entirely. Hurt is wanted (though not always enjoyed or expected), of limited scope in damage (as determined), but still intentional on the part of the doer.

Let's also discuss violence a minute. Violence is out of control and carries with it undetermined, unintentional, and unwanted consequences. S & m rarely fits this bill. In cases where it does, there is usually an understanding that it will be a part of the relationship even though the results are open to be as limited or extensive as they happen to be. This situation is fairly rare.

I will not be so naive as to say that there is little to no abuse in the bdsm community. It happens and more often than we care to admit perhaps. The problem is that you cannot really save another submissive. Each relationship has its own dynamics and boundaries. YOU are not privy to that information. All you do know is that their relationship is not right for you. I could say that things like controlling someone else's money, isolating a person, or injuries requiring a hospital visit are abusive, but I know plenty of perfectly happy folks both here and in the vanilla world who have one or more of those as a part of their interactions. I even control the money inside my marriage. I am an abuser I guess.

I applaud your intent, but I don't find it noble or necessary. When a girl is being abused, she must first determine that for herself, be ready, willing and able to leave, and accept whatever responsibility for her situation. After this, there needs to be time and effort put into making sure this never happens again...self work. In none of this does she need someone else to save her. She will save herself if willing. I would be deeply offended and you would be the one to cause me harm if you were to evaluate my relationships in this realm. How? Your assessment could make me feel ashamed and wonder if I was defective somehow for having the desires that I do. Not exactly the outcome you are aiming for, is it?

SD



OsideGirl -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 5:58:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxogirl

I do understand I am young and fairly inexperienced; however, I have come to find that there are doms who take advantage of that label and use it to abuse women/subs for there pleasure.


That isn't a BDSM D/s thing. It's a life in general thing. There will always be someone there that would like to take advantage of you. Not being a victim is up to you. It's about you doing your due diligence and using your common sense.

We give the advice to take your time and ask lots of questions. Past that point it's up to you to control your experience. We can't do that for you.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 6:00:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxogirl

Any time someone is hitting another person in a way they don't enjoy it is abuse.


False. Dangerously false, IMO. You've fallen into the victimhood trap. Just because my Kitty doesn't enjoy the pain I'm giving him doesn't mean he isn't enjoying every minute of the interaction. What he enjoys isn't the pain, especially since he isn't really a masochist; what he enjoys is the fact that he is taking pain for me and that it pleases me for him to do so. And I love him for it, so I do my best to make sure I take care of his physical and emotional needs. The point here is that you don't get to decide what is or is not abuse within the context of someone else's relationship. You only get to do that for yourself and your own relationships.

quote:

Again most young people just starting out in the lifestyle as a sub will end up like me; with a fucked up stories of abuse that happened to them because a psycho path wanted to label himself a "dom" and torture a young girl.


I call bullshit on this statement. What an utter load of poppycock. Just because you were too naive or too fucked in the head from your previous history of abuse to be able to tell the difference between an abuser and a dominant doesn't mean everyone else is like you. I know for a fact that there are TNG (The Next Generation) groups in many places that teach personal safety to 18-35 year-olds, including when and how to set up a safe call, in addition to how to minimize risks during play. I've personally taken part in such a safety class as a presenter for one of the local TNG groups.

quote:

And also all the bruises, cuts, burns, scars, and other things you may do to someone can seriously damage them. Blood clots from too hard of a spanking or nipple sucking or hickies. Cutting a vain. Burning someone to where they had no feeling. Plus STD's and bacteria is very common these days and no one wants that.


That's why it's called Risk-Aware Consensual Kink. Everyone in the scenario needs to be aware of the potential risks and how to minimize them. In addition, everyone needs to learn to take personal responsibility for his/her/xir own safety.

quote:

So again I think we should look at our relationships and make sure they aren't abusive. Thank you.


I think you need therapy. I also think you need to grow up, take some personal responsibility for your own bad decisions, and learn to choose better next time. What happened to you is unfortunate, should never have happened, and I'm very sorry you had a traumatic experience, but you don't get to run around acting like you're Captain Saveahoe on a mission to rescue the rest of the submissive population from Teh Ebil Dominates of the world. It's not your job and, if you haven't figured it out by now, most people don't want your brand of "help" - they're perfectly capable of deciding for themselves how to conduct their relationships.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 6:07:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I think you need therapy.

At the very least, she needs some kind of training from professional counselors, or a history of successful relationships, if she wants to recruit in an ethical fashion to Fet groups she leads. Will her advice help or hurt people?

OP, could you answer to that question, please? What technical expertise do you possess, what positive life experience do you have, that you can use to lead subs in need of direction and support? If your answer is "not much," what are your plans to change that?

Thanks.



OsideGirl -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 6:08:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxogirl

So again I think we should look at our relationships and make sure they aren't abusive. Thank you.


Allow me to point out something else to you. You don't know me from Adam. You know absolutely nothing about my relationship, yet you somehow feel qualified to tell me that I need to check my relationship to see if I'm abused. I find the your high horse-ness to be offensive and the only thing that's mitigating that offensiveness is that I think you mean well, but don't have enough experience to realize that you're making wide sweeping assumptions about other people and their relationships.



searching4mysir -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 6:17:57 PM)

quote:

Any time someone is hitting another person in a way they don't enjoy it is abuse.


If you said "anytime someone is hitting another person WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT" I would agree. There are several subs on this board who don't love pain, but choose to submit out of love for their partner. They get off on the submission, not the pain.



LadyPact -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 6:27:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxogirl

I do understand I am young and fairly inexperienced; however, I have come to find that there are doms who take advantage of that label and use it to abuse women/subs for there pleasure. Any time someone is hitting another person in a way they don't enjoy it is abuse. And under the law anytime you lay a hand on someone it is battery in just about any state of the Union. Yes, there are some D/s relationships that work out beautifully. Again most young people just starting out in the lifestyle as a sub will end up like me; with a fucked up stories of abuse that happened to them because a psycho path wanted to label himself a "dom" and torture a young girl. Plus a "dom" isn't a legal title and wouldn't hold up in court. If there ever was an investigation and the only defense you had was "i'm a dom" it wouldn't hold up. And also all the bruises, cuts, burns, scars, and other things you may do to someone can seriously damage them. Blood clots from too hard of a spanking or nipple sucking or hickies. Cutting a vain. Burning someone to where they had no feeling. Plus STD's and bacteria is very common these days and no one wants that.
So again I think we should look at our relationships and make sure they aren't abusive. Thank you.
Ah, so your opinion is that consent/non consent dynamics shouldn't exist. I've only got your permission if the sub is getting exactly what they want. Only your thoughts on things like cutting or branding are the acceptable ones.

Hey, I'm the first person to back someone who says that activities were abusive in their OWN relationship. That's exactly where the opinion counts. Opinions of people who want to judge the activities of others who aren't a part of the relationship, but want to be the ones to set the bar of what's abusive and what isn't really don't matter much.

I get that you came to CM to drive up memberships for your groups on Fet. I hope that through some discussions there, members will learn how to choose partners that are compatible with their BDSM desires. (I'm not claiming that there have never been abusive pricks who hid behind the lifestyle label for easy targets.) You may want to have a look at the National Leather Association's website. They are willing to ship informational materials on abuse between domestic partners.




JeffBC -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 7:17:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
It's not your job and, if you haven't figured it out by now, most people don't want your brand of "help"

No, but there is another brand of help she could offer if she would take personal responsibility for what happened. She could be a poster child for "This happened to me because I was an idiot. Here's how I was an idiot. Don't do the same stuff." The tragedy and subsequent growth could make a very moving & inspirational message -- unlike the rather annoying message we actually got.

The problem is I don't think the OP actually understands what happened to her so she can't actually be helpful and is arguably hurting both herself and the very subs she's trying to save. A casual look at SacredDepravity's post clearly indicates which, of the two of them, should be dealing with abuse cases. But the OP can help others if she's willing to actually look in the mirror.

<----- victim blamer, feminists form line here



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Abuse in the community (12/29/2012 7:34:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
It's not your job and, if you haven't figured it out by now, most people don't want your brand of "help"

No, but there is another brand of help she could offer if she would take personal responsibility for what happened.



I do believe I mentioned taking personal responsibility in that post. [;)]

Part of taking personal responsibility would be for her to get therapy for her past childhood trauma and learn how it contributed to making the mistakes she made in choosing a dominant. She needs to confront that and resolve her own issues before she attempts to help anyone else. I, personally, don't see this as blaming the victim - though I suppose others might - but, rather, as a form of self-care. I have been sexually assaulted and I have been involved in abusive relationships, but I have never felt like a victim or felt the need to interfere in the relationships of others. Maybe I just have an unusual outlook on how personal responsibility factors into that. I dunno.



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