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RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 1:43:02 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		Having read the OP I honestly think that the OP - if she's really genuine in her intent to help people in abusive relationships - needs to (A) volunteer at a local shelter or a reputable non-profit organization which deals with abuse and (B) consider some form of professional training to obtain qualifications which give her a basic grounding in recognizing abuse and knowing what to do..

..oh and possibly (C) if the motivation to help others comes from her own experiences in abusive relationships then she needs to make sure she has resolved her own issues first before trying to help others.

The OP is basically the profile which is basically a jumble of baseless assumptions about abuse and the BDSM community. Starting a group on Fet is probably pointless anyway to begin with because I don't think anyone would be inclined to join based on what is written here.

I have three decades contact with BDSM and I have been a victim of abuse, but not in a BDSM relationship and I don't have stats or anything but I'm pretty certain that the BDSM community yields fewer abusive relationships than elsewhere simply because of the way most relationships develop and are structured.

But this opinion is based on an assumption.

I'm not an expert on either abuse or the BDSM community but I think there are three important factors when it comes to abuse:

1. It isn't always simple to spot or recognize abuse in a relationship, even for people involved in the relationship. People define abuse differently, and usually by the time the abuse is recognized the damage has been done.

2. Relationships occur in cycles. Getting out of an abusive relationship is only the first step in the recovery process prior to breaking the relationship cycle and adopting a better, healthier relationship model.

3. The only person who can really get a person out of an abusive relationship is the person themselves and they need to be convinced within themselves that they are ready to move on.

The only way you can help someone in an abusive relationship is by being there, in the right place at the right time when they decide that they want to start the recovery process and need the support and help.

This is for the benefit of the OP.. setting up a fet group and crusading on behalf of abused women just doesn't cut it. You actually need a lot of knowledge about people and relationships, to have completed your own recovery process, and to have expert knowledge and preferably training to be in a position to help victims of abuse.

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 2:30:38 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Having read the OP I honestly think that the OP - if she's really genuine in her intent to help people in abusive relationships - needs to (A) volunteer at a local shelter or a reputable non-profit organization which deals with abuse and (B) consider some form of professional training to obtain qualifications which give her a basic grounding in recognizing abuse and knowing what to do..

..oh and possibly (C) if the motivation to help others comes from her own experiences in abusive relationships then she needs to make sure she has resolved her own issues first before trying to help others.



From my experience, she needs to take care of C first.

I have known a few people working and volunteering to support domestic violence victims who should not have been doing it. Their enthusiasm and caring were without question, but because they hadn't fully dealt with their own history of abuse (not something that happens quickly) they lacked the necessary distance and objectivity to help. Empathy is good, but when we still have our own raw emotional wounds it can be very difficult to help people make informed choices or accurately assess risk. It can all too easily end with the worker's judgment being clouded and bad decisions being made. The worker is also a prime candidate for vicarious trauma.

A lot of people who have suffered abuse want to go on to support or help people and that's wonderful that they can make something positive from a bad thing. But it can take a good deal of time and therapy before they are ready to even take on the training.

I'm glad this topic came up while I was in bed because so many people have already made excellent points and this topic is so huge as to make my brain hurt.

OP - I'm sincerely sorry that you've experienced domestic abuse. I really hope you are taking the time to give yourself the care that you deserve. Please do look into counselling if you're not already - domestic abuse can totally change the way you view yourself and the world and a good professional will help you rebuild your sense of self so that you are ready to go into a healthy relationship.

I've wrestled with where we draw the line between BDSM and abuse. I think when it comes down to pain play, it's an easy definition to grasp - if both partners want it, if both partners are gaining satisfaction from it, if both partners are aware of the risk and able to consent, it isn't abuse. Note I said 'satisfaction', not 'pleasure' as others have pointed out that you can hate the action but enjoy doing it for your partner, or enjoy the after effects.

In a Dom/sub power exchange context it gets more complicated. You can have consensual non consent. You can have 'internal enslavement'. And, on the flip side, a victim of abuse often gets to the point where due to eroded self esteem or skewed views of the world, he or she consents to abusive acts. Consent will sort 95% of the abuse vs non-abuse argument, but that 5% is damn tricky.

Physical injury is no indication of abuse either. Some of the scariest criminals I have met haven't caused the sorts of bruises and marks that some BDSMers get excited over.

Intent is a good one - but I've seen cases of unintentional abuse so that I can't use that as my golden rule either.

The closest I can get to a measure of abuse is one of a person's overall wellbeing. A relationship should improve your wellbeing. Happiness, emotional fulfillment, support.... but we've all had relationships that didn't come through for us, that weren't necessarily abusive.

I had about five years working in the field and dealt with about 300 cases. I've had training, and trained others, and got qualifications and stood up in court... And I still can't define what abuse is. I can say that I know it when I see it, that I can balance all of the above indicators along with the 'victim's' perception and say with relative certainty whether a relationship is abusive. I've also had six years in a D/s relationship. I have turned this over in my head and tried to reconcile it. It is tough. Unfortunately OP, when a person is right out of a domestic abuse relationship they are unlikely to be able to make those assessments on other people's relationships because they are just too close. That's not in any way a criticism of you but it does mean that perhaps you are not the best person to tell people what does or doesn't make their relationship abusive. Not yet.

I do appreciate your efforts to help. What I would suggest is that if you come across a situation you believe to be abusive, you speak to the suspected victim in private and give them details for local support groups or helplines. Let them know you are willing to help if need be. And then back off. Because even if you are right, until that person is ready to make a change you can't force it and being too heavyhanded will push them away and make you less able to help. Best to let them know you are there for them if need be and then leave them to it, and be prepared for denial or a negative reaction.

_____________________________

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Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 4:39:53 AM   
Epytropos


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/23/2011
Status: offline 		I think it would be more appropriate to say that there is abuse hiding in the community, rather than implying that abuse is something which springs from it. You can dress up your abusive urges as BDSM and feel ok about them, and people do, but that doesn't reflect on actual practitioners. Call it No True Scotsman if you must, but that strikes me as a crucial distinction.

Incidentally, in most places you're going to find that a professional setting simply does not lend itself to the display of marks. Some countries and cultures are going to be more ok with it than others, but I've never been to a bank where every 5th teller had visible bite marks at her throat (or hickies for that matter). To imply that anyone who doesn't wear their marks in proud herald is being abused is absurd.

< Message edited by Epytropos -- 12/30/2012 4:40:15 AM >

_____________________________

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I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 5:18:19 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		Damn, it sounds like you really need to change the crowd you're hanging around with.

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 5:35:29 AM   
TheLilSquaw


Posts: 2340
Joined: 10/24/2012
From: Middle River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
The thing for everyone involved to remember is, ALL PLAY SHOULD BE SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL....anything else IS actual abuse.

--MM


Again... who defines what safe and sane are?

I am a HUGE fan of auto erotic asphyxiation, to A LOT of people that isn't safe and or sane. Lol Do I let them dictate MY play, MY definitions of those terms?

Hell no, that is between me and my partner. Only he and I determine what is safe and what is sane for us.









< Message edited by TheLilSquaw -- 12/30/2012 5:45:11 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 7:24:53 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable
lol, yep! Thanks!

I'm dead serious. One of the things I note is that we have a lot of homogeneity on these boards. In MAsT meetings there were always a few couples that made your brain hurt while you tried to sort it out. Personally, I liked the couple that switched the control dynamic. One was always absolutely in charge but it seemed to flow pretty fluidly back & forth between them according to the situation and some sort of psychic link between them :) It worked for them and I got some real respect for MAsT when nobody batted an eye at their introduction. There was no "one true way" there... particularly impressive for a leather org where I would've expected a more "traditional" viewpoint.

So yes, I very much like knowing we have some of the "other" combinations on these boards. Oh, and thank you for pointing this out:

Also, do remember OP that it's not just subs that end up in abusive relationships. Dominants do, too.


Sorry if I didn't come across clearly! I wasn't meaning the "lol" in a laughing you off or not taking you serious way, I genuinely meant that "thanks". The "lol" was just to try and express that you'd made me smile with your comment. It's rare that people, especially other M/s dominants give such a hardy positive to an M/s structure where the person in charge also likes to get beat by their slave.

The whole Twue Way thang.

Yeah, with Chael and I it's very clear who is in charge between us and if one spends time with us.... In a PE relationship I'm very much a dominant.

But Chael PE-wise is a switch. In our relationship he's subbmissive to me. In others he is dominant or vanilla.

Play-wise, I'm a big ole switch. I really love both giving and receiving, depending on what sort of play we're talking about.

Chael's more a top where play goes... I'm really the only one to whom he bottoms. He's a sexual sadist and massage top, with me he basically service bottoms to whatever I'm like, "hey, I wanna do this!" with haha.

Regarding MAsT, we've never attended but not due to my lack of interest (Chael could give a big whoopty-do) but due to timing/availability. There's a chapter up in Dallas but while I lived there Chael didn't, and now neither of us live there (we're about 2.5hrs south now and, frankly, we're a couple of homebodies).

Now that he's getting out of the Army and can easily go to events and stuff with me and we'll be living in NYC where there will be a MAsT group available to us in-town, I intend to check it out. I'm glad to hear good things about it from you. Between female master and play-switches, we run into a lot of the Twue issue and I was concerned a bit about what MAsT may be like though definitely interested in going sometime. Thank you for sharing your experiences.



_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 7:51:00 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
The thing for everyone involved to remember is, ALL PLAY SHOULD BE SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL....anything else IS actual abuse.

--MM


Again, I have to disagree. There are very few things in life one can make safe. There are many things in BDSM that can't be made safe, especially. There are some, like a light spanking during sex is unlikely to end up in the ER or even discomfort 20 minutes later.

But not everyone plays that light. In fact, most don't who do BDSM play, IME, because things light like that are what are really vanilla sex activities. Those who tend to identify as BDSM players tend to mean that they play a bit more or harder than the average vanilla couple who give a spanking or light choking or putting handcuffs on once in a while.

So yeah, there is a very large amount of BDSM play that cannot be truly safe. Those things can be made *safER* or done with caution, but for a very large amount of things there is always some risk to it.

And sane is *really* subjective. Lots of vanilla people will say that anything BDSM-wise is not sane. Lots of people in BDSM play or PE relationships will refer to other people's BDSM/PE behaviors as not sane.

Or are we going more along the lines of "sane" as in "not listed in the DSM as a mental illness" - in that case, most BDSM even when highly risky or bloody or bruisy or whatever is considered sane as long as it doesn't cause difficulty functioning (not as in, aches from a beating, but as in can't cope in society in some way) or is causing that person severe distress with having it in their life.

Many of us prefer not to use SSC due to these factors and prefer the acryonym RACK -if an acronym is even used at all, which many don't.

I got pooped on earlier this year. Not because I'm into it, but just because I'd never done it and figured "what the hell, it won't kill me. I might puke, but it won't kill me". Many in the world don't view poo play as sane or safe. It was consensual, quite silly between my friend and I, and I'm still quite alive without any health effects from it.

As I mentioned earlier, Chael's and my play is mostly sharps play. I am usually cutting him open to some extent when we do BDSM play. Many view any type of bloodplay as not safe or sane. Our interest in such doesn't cause us problems functioning in everyday vanilla life and we're both still quite alive with no health effects from it. And again, it's all consensual.

We don't aim for an impossible standard of safe with our play. We focus on *reducing risk* to what we consider an *acceptable level for us*.

That level is lower than for some people, higher than for others. That's just the nature of human variation in interests and concerns.

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to TheLilSquaw)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 8:16:09 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
However, I don't see a large amount of abuse in the BDSM scene. At least, no more than anywhere else.


What she said

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

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(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 8:47:20 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxogirl

I would like for everyone in the lifestyle to stop, take a moment and think about weather there relationship is abusive or not.


Okay, I can entertain the possibility that it might be abusive to me, the dom, but even that seems far fetched.

In return for me having taken a moment to think, I'll ask you to take a moment to think about whether you're overgeneralizing or overreacting.

quote:

Helping a friend is sometimes the most noble thing you can do.


Fortunately, that's rarely the case.

quote:

When you have to cover up marks someone has left on you, there is a problem.


Yes, but that problem can usually be resolved by explaining your kink to people so you don't need to cover up.

I suppose you had a different problem in mind?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xoxogirl)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 9:10:45 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		lol, fair point there, Aswad... I admit I tend to be less in the cover-up group and more in the "yeah, that's the way I roll" group. (Talking about everyday things like visiting friends, I'm not showing up to a funeral in a backless dress that shows where I was bleeding the night before... but then, it's also hard to get me in a dress, so...)

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 11:00:56 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
The thing for everyone involved to remember is, ALL PLAY SHOULD BE SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL....anything else IS actual abuse.

--MM

Well then-now that the ultimate authority has spoken, we can now stop the debate and go home.

My relationship is abusive. Point blank, straight up, abusive. It was intended that way, constructed that way, and will remain that way...or there won't be a relationship. It's that simple.
It's built on screams, suffering, begging, groveling, my way or the highway, bruises,humiliation and degradation. It's based around finding what she doesn't like, and making her do that. It's about needles, razors, cigar burns on her body, trying to lift her off the ground by her tits, nails through her tongue sorta stuff. It's based on she gives until it hurts, and that's just the start.

And ya know what, it works just fine. It's what we both wanted, and still do.

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(in reply to RumpusParable)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 11:16:05 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Sorry, a barely legal who has just (hopefully) graduated high school setting herself up as arbitrator of what is or is not abuse makes me raise my eyebrows.

If you keep picking abusive relationships, then that shows that you have serious problems and need to address them. The only constant in all your relationships is you.

As far as telling adults twice or three times your age that they are being abused when you know nothing of the individuals involved? You need to grow up.

The first step in changing the world is to change yourself, and I don't see that you've done that.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 11:45:02 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		OP, I went over to Fet and checked out your profile, groups and the group you lead.

Get therapy. And I'd possibly rethink being in any relationship at all at this point.

Oh, and newsflash: not all subs are females, not all females are subs.

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 12:20:16 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Having read the OP I honestly think that the OP - if she's really genuine in her intent to help people in abusive relationships - needs to (A) volunteer at a local shelter or a reputable non-profit organization which deals with abuse and (B) consider some form of professional training to obtain qualifications which give her a basic grounding in recognizing abuse and knowing what to do..

..oh and possibly (C) if the motivation to help others comes from her own experiences in abusive relationships then she needs to make sure she has resolved her own issues first before trying to help others.



From my experience, she needs to take care of C first.



Agreed, because it's survivors who can help victims, not other victims.


_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 3:12:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

My relationship is abusive.


Yours too?

Let's start a club.

The League of Extraordinarily Abusive Folks (LEAF™).

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 3:18:18 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
The thing for everyone involved to remember is, ALL PLAY SHOULD BE SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL....anything else IS actual abuse.

Well then-now that the ultimate authority has spoken, we can now stop the debate and go home.
Ah yes... it's always good to find out how abusive I am. It's posts like this that allow me to say that I'm a accused of being abusive every single day on collarme.

Given that I think very little of what Carol and I do can be considered even remotely "safe" which right away begs the question of "sane" and I readily admit to being uninterested in "consent"... either Carol's or anyone else I happen to meet... I must be actually abusive... assuming of course we want to go with such ridiculous surface measures as that.

Man, I am SOOOOOO freakin glad that Carol and I never drank from the BDSM kool-aid.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 3:20:21 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		"BDSM kool-aid"

Oh man, you know I am stealing that comment.

I love this thread.

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 3:33:26 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Like I tell people, I consented to be in a relationship with Master, not what he does to me. That's more than enough consent for us and all that matters.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/30/2012 3:59:03 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Cool RS! I owed you one anyway for that hair picture. I keep wanting you to post that as "the picture of abuse" :)

edited to add:
Insofar as I think Carol consented at all, she nodded her head to this... "She'll obey till she doesn't want to any more."

For us it seems simple and workable. If we get to the "any more" part we'll work out something different.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 12/30/2012 4:00:24 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Abuse in the community - 12/31/2012 11:37:18 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Some people do not follow SCC, they Follow Rack, Risk aware consensual Kink. An disagree that it has to be SCC or it's abuse.


What if people consensually do not want to do safe or sane things, if their partner is consenting it's not abuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS


The thing for everyone involved to remember is, ALL PLAY SHOULD BE SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL....anything else IS actual abuse.


_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)
Profile   Post #: 80
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