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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 7:11:03 PM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		~FRing it~

It most certainly is not mandatory to have a contract. Ive been doing this for a good little bit of time now and Ive drafted absolutely ZERO contracts. My preferred way of doing things is discussion and utilizing a BDSM checklist. Thats all that is mandatory in my world.

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 7:12:55 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333

Thats your opinion... glad to hear it !

some people prefer to know the limits and what theye are getting into.. etc etc...

Some don't care though : ).

thanks all for the opinions.





He was interested in limits.
We covered that through conversation and then experience.

I kept play journals; He learned what worked and what didn't via His reading my account of our time together.... and through conversation.

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 8:06:05 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333
I'll rephrase...


When you first start with a Sub or slave, is it mandatory to write down the rules together and make the limits clear on paper, or do most people do it verbally.

No, BDSM contracts are not necessary. When I first started out being a Domme in the very beginning when I was still a switch, I thought they were expected. Over time, I've realized they are not necessary unless that's your thing and you're into it.

I used to try and write out a set of rules that my sub and I would go over together. Nothing excessive or anything, just common sense rules. We never signed it like a person would a contract though. Now, instead of having things in writing, I find my present submissive and I do just fine with verbal agreements.

No snark answer and easy peasy.

NBMG

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 8:13:36 PM   
ccc3333


Posts: 156
Joined: 12/24/2012
Status: offline 		In this case you were a very nice girl :)

Sounds like the consensus is verbal seems to be the norm, and contracts are ok, if thats what you are into.

I do like the play journal thing... it pays to take notes... those poor subs... ; )
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333
I'll rephrase...


When you first start with a Sub or slave, is it mandatory to write down the rules together and make the limits clear on paper, or do most people do it verbally.

No, BDSM contracts are not necessary. When I first started out being a Domme in the very beginning when I was still a switch, I thought they were expected. Over time, I've realized they are not necessary unless that's your thing and you're into it.

I used to try and write out a set of rules that my sub and I would go over together. Nothing excessive or anything, just common sense rules. We never signed it like a person would a contract though. Now, instead of having things in writing, I find my present submissive and I do just fine with verbal agreements.

No snark answer and easy peasy.

NBMG


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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 9:20:54 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333

Hello all fellow masters ..

As far as my limited experience of being a master, i have always been under the assumption that a contract for a SUB, is mandatory, unless of course they have no limits, which i suppose would make them a slave....


Just wondering the thoughts of masters on this...

Thanks



Seriously? You're joking, right?



It's also mandatory that the Dom wear leather chaps with his ass hanging out, that she be on her knees and naked 24/7 and you both must be registered with the Super Secret Bdsm Organization.

And if you don't do any of this you will be banned from all the bdsm clubs and organizations. You will be shunned and ignored.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 1/1/2013 9:24:07 PM >

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 9:28:47 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline 		I kinda like that visual, littlewonder. I think we should incorporate that into our "What Makes A Twue Dom" guide book as well.


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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 9:29:34 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I thought that was in the first rules of the book? You need an updated version!


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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 10:16:54 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have known a few subs with contracts and they always seem to end up on the piss poor end of the deal when the contract comes up for renewal, so in my opinion, contracts are lame. If you want to deal with limits ect, why not ask?
I always find it odd that people start out with rules without getting to know their partner and their likes or dislikes.

I find the best relationships are pretty fluid. Of course if you require a more formal structure then make that clear up front, so people can take a pass if its not for them. I would pass.

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/1/2013 10:24:54 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		I only ever drew up one contract, at the request of the sub, and had her proofread and edit it with her thoughts three times. The contract meant nothing, but the exercise helped her figure out what she wouldn't have thought of herself (and she wished to be thorough).

Verbal contracts are nonexistent for me. I say, "Let's try... What would you think of that?" Then she tells me. Based on her answer we do it or we don't. Consent isn't a contract, it's a mutual understanding. Contracts, on the other hand, are for clarifying points of contention. They serve as a written arbiter of someone saying NO.

I don't need a contract to figure out what NO means.

Edited to add: my girl has also said, "Can we try...?" If I didn't want to I'd say so. So this road runs both ways, and it runs smooth.

< Message edited by RemoteUser -- 1/1/2013 10:26:08 PM >

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 2:07:54 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333

I'll rephrase...


When you first start with a Sub or slave, is it mandatory to write down the rules together and make the limits clear on paper, or do most people do it verbally.

C



Mandatory according to what governing body? No one has ever come to check whether we have one.

A contract is a tool, and like most tools, it can be helpful in the right situation and damaging in the wrong one. If you're interested in numbers, why not start a poll in the poll section and ask who has a contract in their current relationship?

As I'm sure you know, a contract is not in any way binding, so if it doesn't give the two of you some other benefit, it's not worth doing.

Some people find it very helpful to write down the expectations of the relationship so they are both absolutely clear on where they stand. The value here is in the negotiation - both parties sitting down together and asking each other what they want and need, what will happen in this situation, etc etc. It can also be a tool for communication further down the line - 'Our contract states that every Thursday night will be our private couple time, but we've been letting that slip' or 'the contract says you will clean the bathroom every day but you forgot twice this week, is there a problem with that order?'

There are some limitations to a contract. If written at the beginning of the relationship, there will be a lot of situations you won't have encountered or even imagined yet. So you may need to change it frequently, in which case, does it hold any weight at all? It can also be mis-used to PREVENT communication - if a problem arises, even if the contract says one thing, it needs to be addressed responsibly.

We have all seen people who have hugely detailed contracts written in their profiles that a future sub will have to abide by. I would run a mile if I saw this. It shows cluelessness - a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work with human relationships, and it speaks of unrealistic expectations. If I were to have a contract, it would be one that detailed the responsibilities of BOTH parties and it would be heavily negotiated. My worry would be that it would be held over my head to stop me expressing my needs.

I've told this story before so I'll be brief. When I started out in a D/s relationship, I had all these big ideas about what a sub should be and how wonderful I'd do. It didn't work out like that. I was unrealistic with myself, but I had too little experience to even know what was realistic for me. We ended up abandoning much of the D/s to start over. A contract, no matter how well intentioned, would have been a waste of time for us, because I (and to a lesser extent he) lacked the experience and self-knowledge to write one that we could abide by and would make us happy.

As a side note - I'm glad you're asking lots of questions and trying to learn what you can. Don't be so defensive though. People gave you answers to the question you asked and pointed out that with a little thought, you probably already knew the answer. It was a bit like asking 'I hear it's mandatory to take your girlfriend bowling once a month, is that true?' Perhaps if you'd been clearer about what exactly you wanted to know about contracts, you'd have got answers closer to those you wanted.

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Upon the hours and times of your desire?

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 4:45:09 AM   
WomanlyWiles


Posts: 166
Joined: 3/14/2012
Status: offline 		I find going on dates and having conversations is the best way to proceed. That way you find out what's important to the other person, and tell them what's important to you. If you reach a consensus, you can move forward together.

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 4:53:19 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		I'm sorry you felt the earlier responses were negative, I think they were packed with good robust opinions - and they come from some of the most experienced and generous posters here (just fyi!)

Ok, here's my take (which will be a repetition of some of the things the other people have said). I'm not saying any of this to get one over you, and I don't expect either that you should agree with me, or that I'm actually right in my opinions...

Nope they're not mandatory, nor are they prevalent.

A fair number of people find them really useful in establishing boundaries early on

In some relationships the contract becomes the cornerstone, in others it simply gets forgotten once both people have established trust

Personally, I would never consider a "contract", personally it would feel a little silly to talk in terms of contracts. Sure, I would be keen to establish boundaries etc but "contracts" aren't my bag. (Note, that above I've said they can be really useful

I'm not a "Master" either... I'm a Dom - As someone who seems to be set to participate a fair bit on the boards, you probably want to get a sense for how people like to be addressed / groups. (And yeah, I know this is the "Ask a Master" section - so it's not unreasonable if you're new to the boards to open with "Hello Masters".

You ought to be aware as well that for many the term "Master" implies a level of experience, and reputation that a newcomer to the world of D/s is unlikely to have. Yes, perhaps some people are over sensitive, but again I'm sure you'll welcome the heads up.


I'd encourage you to ride with some of the more robust responses you're bound to get - By and large they'll have a grain of value to them. Of course, there are some proper tosspots here too, and once you know who they are, there's a hide button for the real crazies.

Keep on posting! I may not agree with some of the points of view you take, but it's always good to have new opinions and insights.




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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 9:22:36 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl
I used to try and write out a set of rules that my sub and I would go over together. Nothing excessive or anything, just common sense rules. We never signed it like a person would a contract though. Now, instead of having things in writing, I find my present submissive and I do just fine with verbal agreements.



That pretty much is how we did it. But, allow me also to point out that the list also outlined what I considered acceptable behavior from him as much as it outlined acceptable behavior from me.

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 10:06:54 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Yeh... about this. A lot.. and I do mean a lot of subs will refer to the top as master. Not sure if that is because it's part of the play, or if they just think that is the way it is done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333
perhaps because i called myself a master, which is what my subs call me... i am a DOM technically here.



_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 11:09:03 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Yeh... about this. A lot.. and I do mean a lot of subs will refer to the top as master. Not sure if that is because it's part of the play, or if they just think that is the way it is done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333
perhaps because i called myself a master, which is what my subs call me... i am a DOM technically here.





mmmmm mine refer to me as Asshole....... more proof that I am doing it all wrong I suppose.

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 11:24:34 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ccc3333
When you first start with a Sub or slave, is it mandatory to write down the rules together and make the limits clear on paper, or do most people do it verbally.

As you correctly said, if it's a TPE relationship there's nothing to write down. It'd end up looking something like our [non-existent] contract. She agrees to obey until she doesn't. That doesn't equate with "slave" though... it's the total part of TPE which makes clauses and conditions unnecessary.

If I was starting with someone new I'd treat it as a process not an agreement. Sure I'd want to learn all about them including their kink landscape but that would happen in discussions not contract negotiations. I would already know that they are at least capable of a TPE relationship or I wouldn't be starting any relationship with them -- not because I need TPE relationships to be happy but because I need a certain degree of trust and team work and other attributes to form any viable relationship.

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 12:11:43 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		Not a contact person here, either, OP. I tried it once, wasn't particularly helpful... just talking to each other does the same thing and better, in my relationships.

And then there's Chael where we did discuss limits at all until he'd been submissive to me for 5 years and I'd collared him a couple weeks before... and that conversation went like this:

"it occurs to me we never talked about limits lol"

"what brought this up?"

"oh, they were talking about it on Fetlife in a group I am in"

"well, I'd like you to not kick me in the nuts"

"I don't like being told I can't kick you in the nuts"

"okay.... do you want to kick me in the nuts?"

"no, not really"

pause while we each thought about it

"I don't think we need to make limits, you take care of me"

and then we continued our snuggling


edited to add:

As relating to things others have said, our structure is TPE. While we joke and play like above, the rule for us is I'm in charge and can do whatever I want with us and to him so long as he stays my slave. We don't really have any specific rules other than "what Rumpus says is what goes".

The rest comes down to compatibility, as mentioned with the balls-kicking thing above. I can *do* it, but neither of us is interested at all.

< Message edited by RumpusParable -- 1/2/2013 12:18:45 PM >

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 12:14:34 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ding ding!

That post just scored 100 fucking awesome points.

No idea where you can redeem the points, but what the hey!

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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 12:16:34 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Carol & I could have had the same conversation. To me (and me only) the whole limits thing starts out with a presumption that I'm going to harm the other person. Nobody would be in my arms, bed, or house where that was a possibility. Anyone who was thinking those thoughts shouldn't be in my arms/bed/house to start with.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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RE: Contract for sub mandatory? - 1/2/2013 2:00:43 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

I keep seeing limits referenced in terms of contracts, and if you have TPE you don't need a contract, and I'm kind of scratching my head, because neither are prevalent in our document over here.

For us, our "contract" (what I prefer to call "commitment document") is more about processes we put in place to handle various life circumstances. Processes we BOTH will follow. Certain things for us just weren't working, and they were a big enough deal to both of us that we almost ended the relationship. It was a growing experience for both of us. Some things that are covered are along the lines of balancing time together vs family needs, how disagreements/resolutions will be carried out, and guidelines for inviting outside parties to play.

So it doesn't have things like "You will obey" because for us that goes without saying. He has the final word in everything, of course. But certain inconsistencies and/or knee jerk reactions were becoming very detrimental to us, so we needed to talk through them, and understand the cause & effect of certain actions, despite having the best of intentions.

I used to think contracts were just silly, and hey maybe some are. But this ended up being a really healthy process for us. And now, instead of banging the document over each others heads if one of us doesn't follow what we agreed to, it's more like, "Should the such-n-such process be up for review? Do you no longer agree with it, or did you just forget?" It's not a confrontational thing - it's just something to get us both on the same page (literally) in some critical areas.

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