quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Men do more damage generally being stronger, but DV rates between the genders are about equal, and some studies have even showed that in cases where the violence is not mutual women are more likely to be the perpetrators.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020
quote:

That was not the point to my post. I didnt state DV wasnt something m en dont need to be concerned about. I didnt imply that it never happens, or rarely happens. I asked a specific question....

quote:

When a man walks.. he walks.

When a woman walks, many times she is pulled back, beaten up, and told if she leaves again she will be killed.

Can that happen to a man from a woman? yes. Tell me, what do you think that percentage is?

I gave you the percentage from your country.

And this means that male victims of DV shouldn't also receive support that women do? Even though I just gave studies which show that they're the majority of victims?

I do not know about the politics in your country.

In the US, much of the money is federal funds.

To get those funds, you have to get the attention of those who control the purse strings.

Those who control the purse strings are only answering to those who they feel will best help their efforts at re-election.

If men arent complaining about domestic violence, not reporting it, not pushing for prosecutions, politicians can pretend its not a huge issue - actually, I think they are glad to have at least one group remaining silent - and they worry about the groups that are bitching the loudest.

Women get this.

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
So, when you speak of this widespread problem in society, what you really mean is that your brother had an incident.

Now, let's pick apart this transaction, and we will assume it happened the way you say (i.e. the way he told you it happened).

A girl kneed your brother in the balls for a laugh. How do we know it was for a laugh? Is that what she said? If so, then she's a sadist and a criminal, and your brother should have immediately reported her to the appropriate authorities. Did he do so, or did he react in kind with violence? He chose the latter. Are you starting to see then why the "epidemic" of violence against men by women, if there is one, might not be coming to light?*

Your brother then instinctively reacted with a punch in the face??? If those are your brother's instincts, then he had better get some fucking new ones quick before he finds himself in prison for a long time.

When someone attacks me my instict is to do what I can to protect myself, so I can believe it. He didn't punch her and then keep on punching her. She kneed him in the balls, and he reacted. He actually felt bad about it afterwards. She said it was for a laugh yes. I've seen this happen quite a few times actually, woman hits man, man defends himself, and the man is the bad guy.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

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ORIGINAL: Baroana
So, when you speak of this widespread problem in society, what you really mean is that your brother had an incident.

Now, let's pick apart this transaction, and we will assume it happened the way you say (i.e. the way he told you it happened).

A girl kneed your brother in the balls for a laugh. How do we know it was for a laugh? Is that what she said? If so, then she's a sadist and a criminal, and your brother should have immediately reported her to the appropriate authorities. Did he do so, or did he react in kind with violence? He chose the latter. Are you starting to see then why the "epidemic" of violence against men by women, if there is one, might not be coming to light?*

Your brother then instinctively reacted with a punch in the face??? If those are your brother's instincts, then he had better get some fucking new ones quick before he finds himself in prison for a long time.

When someone attacks me my instict is to do what I can to protect myself, so I can believe it. He didn't punch her and then keep on punching her. She kneed him in the balls, and he reacted. He actually felt bad about it afterwards. She said it was for a laugh yes. I've seen this happen quite a few times actually, woman hits man, man defends himself, and the man is the bad guy.

I'm not surprised that the two of you, being brothers, have similar instincts. That doesn't make it normal or right.

Sorry to break this to you, hon, but there's no way your brother gave you the straight story about how this fight happened. Teenagers are pretty much liars by definition, first of all. Moreover, the story simply doesn't make sense. There had to be more to it.

For what it's worth, I confess to having kneed a guy or two in the balls. Never once was I punched in the face, by reflex or otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
So, when you speak of this widespread problem in society, what you really mean is that your brother had an incident.

Now, let's pick apart this transaction, and we will assume it happened the way you say (i.e. the way he told you it happened).

A girl kneed your brother in the balls for a laugh. How do we know it was for a laugh? Is that what she said? If so, then she's a sadist and a criminal, and your brother should have immediately reported her to the appropriate authorities. Did he do so, or did he react in kind with violence? He chose the latter. Are you starting to see then why the "epidemic" of violence against men by women, if there is one, might not be coming to light?*

Your brother then instinctively reacted with a punch in the face??? If those are your brother's instincts, then he had better get some fucking new ones quick before he finds himself in prison for a long time.

When someone attacks me my instict is to do what I can to protect myself, so I can believe it. He didn't punch her and then keep on punching her. She kneed him in the balls, and he reacted. He actually felt bad about it afterwards. She said it was for a laugh yes. I've seen this happen quite a few times actually, woman hits man, man defends himself, and the man is the bad guy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
This is a good time to remember that we are discussing an isolated case here, and these events do not necessarily reflect the nature of men in general or women in general. In this specific case, though, your brother got thoroughly outsmarted by this girl.

First, your brother make the completely dumb mistake of retaliating rather than reporting the attack on him. Secondly, by punching the girl in the face he picked the stupidest possible way to retaliate (the girl - unlike your brother - chose to inflict an injury that wouldn't leave a huge fucking black and blue mark as evidence for the world to see).

Now what was your point again?
Also, how old were these two parties at the time?

----
* As for an epidemic of violence against men by men, which is something I think you mentioned earlier ... well gee, kid, I know you are quite young and just joining us, but the fact that men are violent - to each other and to women - is hardly fucking news in this world. If you don't like it, then start an annual parade or 5k or whatever the hell you want to do. No one's stopping you.

They were both 16 at the time. My point again was that much of the time female on male violence is unchallenged where male on female violence is not.

I just responded to the idea that women are more likely to be victims of violent crime, they're not. Which is why I don't understand the whole "stop violence against women" thing. Why only women?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I was told at a young age... never step up to a man like a man... you will get treated like a man.

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First, your brother made the completely dumb mistake of retaliating when he should have promptly reported the attack on him.

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Secondly, he picked the stupidest possible way to retaliate when he chose to punch the girl in the face (you see, she - unlike your less shrewd brother - chose to inflict an injury that wouldn't leave a huge fucking black and blue mark as evidence for the world to see).

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In the US, both would have been arrested on domestic violence. But excusing violence, then complaining "she did it first".... how often have many posted "that doesnt fly."

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The ONLY time I would accept retaliatory violence would be when there is no way to escape. No matter what the sex is of the offender.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

How many women commit violence against men? Very, very few per capita. [...] Most women are not wired for violence, and even violent women tend not to attack men. As we all know, a regular woman cannot take a regular man in a fight.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

You are making an extremely flawed comparison by lumping together too many categories and placing apples next to oranges.

When you say that males are more likely to be the victims of violence, it is true. However, the perpetrators of such violence are also overwhelmingly likely to be male. This is anything but a "swept under the rug" issue. Male on male violence probably makes up 90% of violent crime. It is and always has been the single most significant source of disruption in society since the beginning of time. Male on male violence is in no way a hidden problem, and untold numbers of people are up in arms about it. The amount of money and resources spent on the problem is insane.

How many women commit violence against men? Very, very few per capita. One notable exception is young girls who beat on boys they like. (By the way, this might have been the case with your brother, in which case his reaction was just doubly stupid.)

Most women are not wired for violence, and even violent women tend not to attack men. As we all know, a regular woman cannot take a regular man in a fight. Violence against women, therefore, is usually committed by men, and YES it is a special problem. Why? Because as I just said, women are at a physical disadvantage and are typically not well equipped to protect themselves. Moreover, this stuff tends to occur in the home, where no one else is around to protect the female victim. Finally, an abused woman knows that she is vulnerable to retaliation if she does try to seek help after the fact.

Do I need to draw you some kind of diagram, or do you get it now?

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

Men do more damage generally being stronger, but DV rates between the genders are about equal, and some studies have even showed that in cases where the violence is not mutual women are more likely to be the perpetrators.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

quote:

Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%)
of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women
were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

quote:

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They are both fucked up individuals.

If punching someone for giving you a knee to the balls constitutes being a fucked up individual, then count me as thoroughly fucked up.

You cross that magic line of physical assault, you forfeit your own physical security, period.

Everything on the right side of that line, we're good.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

I was told at a young age... never step up to a man like a man... you will get treated like a man.

Something I firmly live by.

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

You are making an extremely flawed comparison by lumping together too many categories and placing apples next to oranges.

When you say that males are more likely to be the victims of violence, it is true. However, the perpetrators of such violence are also overwhelmingly likely to be male. This is anything but a "swept under the rug" issue. Male on male violence probably makes up 90% of violent crime. It is and always has been the single most significant source of disruption in society since the beginning of time. Male on male violence is in no way a hidden problem, and untold numbers of people are up in arms about it. The amount of money and resources spent on the problem is insane.

How many women commit violence against men? Very, very few per capita. One notable exception is young girls who beat on boys they like. (By the way, this might have been the case with your brother, in which case his reaction was just doubly stupid.)

Most women are not wired for violence, and even violent women tend not to attack men. As we all know, a regular woman cannot take a regular man in a fight. Violence against women, therefore, is usually committed by men, and YES it is a special problem. Why? Because as I just said, women are at a physical disadvantage and are typically not well equipped to protect themselves. Moreover, this stuff tends to occur in the home, where no one else is around to protect the female victim. Finally, an abused woman knows that she is vulnerable to retaliation if she does try to seek help after the fact.

Do I need to draw you some kind of diagram, or do you get it now?

I posted this earlier:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

Men do more damage generally being stronger, but DV rates between the genders are about equal, and some studies have even showed that in cases where the violence is not mutual women are more likely to be the perpetrators.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

quote:

Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%)
of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women
were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

quote:

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

Men are the majority of domestic violence victims, so to me there's no reason that they shouldn't have the same support that women do. I know that men commit more violence on men, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get support if being abused by their partners.

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Men are the majority of domestic violence victims, so to me there's no reason that they shouldn't have the same support that women do. I know that men commit more violence on men, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get support if being abused by their partners.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

I so do not buy that men are the majority of domestic violence victims. Where are all these tank-undershirt wearing women that are putting their hubbys in the hospital???

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

You are making an extremely flawed comparison by lumping together too many categories and placing apples next to oranges.

When you say that males are more likely to be the victims of violence, it is true. However, the perpetrators of such violence are also overwhelmingly likely to be male. This is anything but a "swept under the rug" issue. Male on male violence probably makes up 90% of violent crime. It is and always has been the single most significant source of disruption in society since the beginning of time. Male on male violence is in no way a hidden problem, and untold numbers of people are up in arms about it. The amount of money and resources spent on the problem is insane.

How many women commit violence against men? Very, very few per capita. One notable exception is young girls who beat on boys they like. (By the way, this might have been the case with your brother, in which case his reaction was just doubly stupid.)

Most women are not wired for violence, and even violent women tend not to attack men. As we all know, a regular woman cannot take a regular man in a fight. Violence against women, therefore, is usually committed by men, and YES it is a special problem. Why? Because as I just said, women are at a physical disadvantage and are typically not well equipped to protect themselves. Moreover, this stuff tends to occur in the home, where no one else is around to protect the female victim. Finally, an abused woman knows that she is vulnerable to retaliation if she does try to seek help after the fact.

Do I need to draw you some kind of diagram, or do you get it now?

I posted this earlier:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

Men do more damage generally being stronger, but DV rates between the genders are about equal, and some studies have even showed that in cases where the violence is not mutual women are more likely to be the perpetrators.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

quote:

Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%)
of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women
were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

quote:

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

Men are the majority of domestic violence victims, so to me there's no reason that they shouldn't have the same support that women do. I know that men commit more violence on men, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get support if being abused by their partners.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

I so do not buy that men are the majority of domestic violence victims. Where are all these tank-undershirt wearing women that are putting their hubbys in the hospital???

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

I so do not buy that men are the majority of domestic violence victims. Where are all these tank-undershirt wearing women that are putting their hubbys in the hospital???

Even though 100s of studies suggest otherwise? Men hit harder, women hit more often. That's how it is.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Men are the majority of domestic violence victims, so to me there's no reason that they shouldn't have the same support that women do. I know that men commit more violence on men, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get support if being abused by their partners.

Majority? I am quite liberal minded when it comes to the abuse men suffer, but even I have problems believing that. Unless you are speaking to the "slaps" men get as part of the bargain.

Again, report... if a woman slaps you, why should you have to take that? Start a paper trail on her. The more complaints, the easier to convict later down the road.

Your first link sites this following study as its source.....

The Add Health study was launched as a national school-based survey of adolescent behavior during 1994. In the first wave, the in-school survey of adolescents from grades 7-12 was carried out in 140 schools during the spring of 1994. This survey was followed up in 1995 by an in-home interview of the study youth and a principal caregiver (typically mother). The adolescents were interviewed once again in the home a year later, 1996. Approximately 10,000 adolescents participated in all three waves. The important next wave of the study occurred during 2001-2002. By these dates, all respondents had left high school for education, work, or other options. The age range extends from 18 to 24.

http://www.cpc.unc.edu/projects/lifecourse/research_projects/add_health

Let me ask you... why would you assume these interviews were factual? The age group would certainly be appropriate. But these interviews were conducted within the presence of a parent, typically the mother. How many boys would willingly admit to hitting a girl in front of their mother? How many would admit to initiating such an action without cause?

Now, I really need you to think here. What would be the motive, if what you assert is true, that men are often embarrassed by the abuse they are given, for these boys to willing admit to such in front of their own mother?

The second link you provided uses the same source.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

You are making an extremely flawed comparison by lumping together too many categories and placing apples next to oranges.

When you say that males are more likely to be the victims of violence, it is true. However, the perpetrators of such violence are also overwhelmingly likely to be male. This is anything but a "swept under the rug" issue. Male on male violence probably makes up 90% of violent crime. It is and always has been the single most significant source of disruption in society since the beginning of time. Male on male violence is in no way a hidden problem, and untold numbers of people are up in arms about it. The amount of money and resources spent on the problem is insane.

How many women commit violence against men? Very, very few per capita. One notable exception is young girls who beat on boys they like. (By the way, this might have been the case with your brother, in which case his reaction was just doubly stupid.)

Most women are not wired for violence, and even violent women tend not to attack men. As we all know, a regular woman cannot take a regular man in a fight. Violence against women, therefore, is usually committed by men, and YES it is a special problem. Why? Because as I just said, women are at a physical disadvantage and are typically not well equipped to protect themselves. Moreover, this stuff tends to occur in the home, where no one else is around to protect the female victim. Finally, an abused woman knows that she is vulnerable to retaliation if she does try to seek help after the fact.

Do I need to draw you some kind of diagram, or do you get it now?

I posted this earlier:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

Men do more damage generally being stronger, but DV rates between the genders are about equal, and some studies have even showed that in cases where the violence is not mutual women are more likely to be the perpetrators.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

quote:

Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%)
of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women
were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

quote:

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

Men are the majority of domestic violence victims, so to me there's no reason that they shouldn't have the same support that women do. I know that men commit more violence on men, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get support if being abused by their partners.

Surely it varies from place to place, though probably not too much. Here's what one source in Canada has to say: http://www.canadianwomen.org/facts-about-violence

Excerpts:

- On average, every six days a woman in Canada is killed by her intimate partner. In 2009, 67 women were murdered by a current or former spouse or boyfriend

- In just one year in Canada, 427,000 women over the age of 15 reported they had been sexually assaulted.7 Since only about 10% of all sexual assaults are reported to the police, the actual number is much higher

- About 80% of sex trafficking victims in Canada are women and girls

- AREN’T MALES JUST AS LIKELY TO BE VICTIMS AS FEMALES?
We strongly believe that ALL violence is unacceptable, and we applaud other campaigns that work to end violence. As a women’s organization, our mission focuses on women and girls. However, our teen violence prevention programs are co-ed, designed for both boys and girls.
According to police, men (49%) and women (51%) in Canada are equally at risk of violent victimization. However, men are much more likely to be assaulted by a stranger or someone from outside their family, while women are much more likely to be assaulted by someone they know.

- Some self-reported research shows women are almost as likely to use violence against their partner as men.

- Although some people claim that men are too embarrassed to admit a woman has abused them, the reverse is actually true: in self-reported research, men tend to over-estimate their partner’s violence while under-estimating their own. At the same time, women over-estimate their own violence, and under-estimate their partner's. This explains why self-reported research often shows similar levels of violence by men and women, even though other research clearly shows that women are disproportionately the victims.

- In addition, self-reported research does not clarify that men are far more likely to initiate violence, while women are more likely to use violence in self-defence.

- Most men are not abusive to their families. However, when family violence does occur, the victims are overwhelmingly female:

- 83% of all police-reported domestic assaults are against women. This pattern is consistent for every province and territory across Canada.

- In spousal violence, three times as many women experience serious violence such as choking, beating, being threatened with a knife or gun, and sexual violence. Women are more likely to be physically injured, to get a restraining order, and to fear for their lives.

- For the past 30 years in Canada, women are three to four times as likely to be killed by their spouse.

- Over 80% of victims of dating violence are female.

- Girls are four times as likely as boys to be sexually assaulted by a family member.

quote:

Where have I said that men are embarrassed? While that's probably true in many cases, I'm talking about them not being taken seriously, as in little will be done about it by the police, not admitting to it in front of their Mothers. Even with statistics that show otherwise people just can't believe that women would attack men more than men attack women. As I said, men are nearly always assumed to be the abusers when it comes to DV. Do you not think that the police would also feel the same way?

quote:

In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Where have I said that men are embarrassed? While that's probably true in many cases, I'm talking about them not being taken seriously, as in little will be done about it by the police, not admitting to it in front of their Mothers. Even with statistics that show otherwise people just can't believe that women would attack men more than men attack women. As I said, men are nearly always assumed to be the abusers when it comes to DV. Do you not think that the police would also feel the same way?

If the bolded part is true, then the studies you presented are flawed and not meaningful.

As far as the frequency, I would say its about even. I would not say its 70% women, compared to 30% men. Think about that for a few moments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases

Using that as a measure for society is completely wrong. What that is saying is that men only are violent with non-violent women 30% of the time when the violence is not given back.

Are you truly sure you want to go with that?

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ORIGINAL: Chesterfield91

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Where have I said that men are embarrassed? While that's probably true in many cases, I'm talking about them not being taken seriously, as in little will be done about it by the police, not admitting to it in front of their Mothers. Even with statistics that show otherwise people just can't believe that women would attack men more than men attack women. As I said, men are nearly always assumed to be the abusers when it comes to DV. Do you not think that the police would also feel the same way?

If the bolded part is true, then the studies you presented are flawed and not meaningful.

As far as the frequency, I would say its about even. I would not say its 70% women, compared to 30% men. Think about that for a few moments.

Most men, including myself, are taught never to hit a woman, even if she hits them first. That's what I've always been taught. I could never do it, it would feel wrong. That's the way a lot of men are.