Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/11/2013 1:53:40 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		You're very welcome chadra. I can thank you in return. Trying to understand things across a "viewpoint divide" is always hard but, to me at least, frequently rewarding. It's also interesting that sometimes you end up realizing you were looking at the same thing all along simply from different perspectives... sometimes not so much. It's kind of like two people with walkie talkies lost in the woods trying to meet each other. They both describe what they see hoping the other one will maybe see something like that also or something which can be recognized as that from a different direction. The jury's out in my mind as to whether or not we're looking at the same thing from different perspectives or different things.

Like you, I'm trying to reach into your viewpoint and understand how things like "limits" map into my experience. But I'm game :)

I like examples for illustration of concepts and appreciate you giving one. I still don't see the disconnect on the concept of consent, though. I could certainly be way off base here (and probably am), but to me the example illustrates more a dynamic of a responsible dominant gently (2 years) expanding previously established limits. To me, stretching limits within a relationship is a very different idea than discarding the idea of consent itself.
I don't know that I have discarded the concept of consent in it's entirety. When I tossed it out as a useful concept I was responding to a specific thing. In general, there is this sense in BDSM think that if consent is present then it's not abusive. When I looked at how far I could manipulate her consent I started asking myself questions about coercion. It didn't take me long looking at that to realize that "consent" was not going to be any sort of magic talisman guaranteeing that I was morally or ethically in the right. So it got tossed out as a useful concept.

You (and she) maintain she reserves the right to determine you have lost your grasp on responsibility (i.e... have become a total asshat). I totally get your point that you very heavily determine for her what is asshattery and what is not.
This sums up that viewpoint nicely. At what point of influence regarding her sense of right & wrong, good & bad, does coercion become so prevalent that consent becomes useless? That is the original question asked in this thread.

Yet, isn't that true for all sorts of D/s relationships across the entire spectrum? Does it eliminate fundamental consent? To my admittedly less experienced eyes, it is still appearing that core consent is present in the relationship.
Not in my experience. A commonly heard thing from subs is "he can make me do something but he can't make me like it/agree to it/etc." In other words, the limit of control is external. In a situation like that consent remains fully intact. In point of fact, despite all the flowery prose, the sub has not even remotely given themselves to their dom "body & soul". Rather, it is quite specifically "body only" and that boundary is defended assertively and aggressively. The moment, however, that the sub opens that door (and the dom is skilled at influencing people) the situation changes. The way I've said it is that Carol unlocked the door and let a master thief into her house. It's too late now to lock them. Could I still get caught by the cops? Sure.... assuming I'm not actually a master thief. She has said to someone who is really good at manipulation, "Go ahead and manipulate me." Predictably, the first thing I did was ensure it'd be easier to gain access next time.

Now... in a court of law could I be accused of some non-consensual action? No. Everything I have done would be legally allowed. Does she still consent in all the ways the law would see that as meaningful? Yes she does. If she ever firmly said "no" would I honor that? You bet. She'd hand me back the collar and we'd be loving husband and wife. All of which doesn't really serve any sort of useful guide post. So given it's lack of utility I simply stopped thinking about it.

As a semi-random aside...
As I was discussing this with someone offline, and they made an observation that perhaps all this is just trying to lay down arbitrary distinctions that are not well-aligned with actual reality. In a sense I get what he's saying. I go out into the world and I talk to people. Sometimes I have a specific goal in that... a way I want to influence them. Sometimes there's no resistance to that influence. Other times there is more resistance. It'll sort itself out in a dynamic way -- meaning not rigidly conforming to some sort of "me Dom, you sub" sort of framework. In the end, if I am able to overcome whatever resistance is present by whatever means I use then one can say they have "consented". If you want, you can say I "dominated" them and they "submitted". You could also say "we talked and reached an agreement" You could apply whatever construct you want to it but in the end it's a negotiation -- which is how I see all of D/s anyway. The only thing even remotely unusual about what happens between Carol and I is that there is very little resistance and she's actively committed to helping me overcome whatever resistance there is to whatever dumbass idea I decide to pursue.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/11/2013 2:00:55 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline
quote:

JeffBC
I would agree. That's exactly why I almost always feel like a misfit on this side of the board... much less so on the Gorean side. It is exactly "something else".


There is something else... I can't put my finger on it.
I have noticed that many of the people who like the
gorean stuff tend to be interested in what it means to
be a man of character and it is from that which the
D/s stuff tends to be influenced in some ways.

-Aries

_____________________________

530 DAYS

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/11/2013 2:27:09 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

She then turned around and said she couldn't leave because she did not have permission to.


In my mind, the line is drawn by the slave and always will be. Obey or not to obey is a choice. amira chose not to leave without permission.


~ FR

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/11/2013 5:37:30 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

A commonly heard thing from subs is "he can make me do something but he can't make me like it/agree to it/etc." In other words, the limit of control is external. In a situation like that consent remains fully intact. In point of fact, despite all the flowery prose, the sub has not even remotely given themselves to their dom "body & soul". Rather, it is quite specifically "body only" and that boundary is defended assertively and aggressively. The moment, however, that the sub opens that door (and the dom is skilled at influencing people) the situation changes.


I can really relate to this Jeff. I even told Master a few months ago about how much more I think like him since we met, how he has made me think of things in his way, made me like things or dislike things and all that. Even when I try to think of things in my old ways, I realize that his ways are just better. To be honest, these days I just assume that anything he says is correct because well....I've yet to see him wrong lol. I can't really think of anytime when he has done something that ended up not turning out well. I just don't even think about it anymore. It just is that way. Now there are still things I don't like, but I don't question it harming me. I don't concern myself with it being right or wrong. The only thing that runs through my mind is, "FUCK...this is going to HUUURT!".


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/11/2013 5:56:33 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I don't know that I have discarded the concept of consent in it's entirety. When I tossed it out as a useful concept I was responding to a specific thing. In general, there is this sense in BDSM think that if consent is present then it's not abusive. When I looked at how far I could manipulate her consent I started asking myself questions about coercion. It didn't take me long looking at that to realize that "consent" was not going to be any sort of magic talisman guaranteeing that I was morally or ethically in the right. So it got tossed out as a useful concept.

I love what you said here. I've always been opposed to the suggestion that if there's consent it's not abuse. I've consented to a lot of harmful abuse in the past, simply because I either didn't know any better, my mind was fucked up, or I no longer cared about myself. So yes, what you said is absolutely true - her consent does not mean you are morally or ethically right. It does not mean you aren't harming her - intentionally or not.

As for the Mister and I, I don't think we've ever even said the word in conversation. It never came up - what I would "consent" to. We've just gradually been evolving forward, with him gauging my responses and moving at a pace that works well. Sure there have been errors along the way but I know his heart is in the right place, and that his intentions are good (for me, "intention" is a better gauge re: the whole abuse discussion, than "consent").

quote:


A commonly heard thing from subs is "he can make me do something but he can't make me like it/agree to it/etc." In other words, the limit of control is external. In a situation like that consent remains fully intact. In point of fact, despite all the flowery prose, the sub has not even remotely given themselves to their dom "body & soul". Rather, it is quite specifically "body only" and that boundary is defended assertively and aggressively. The moment, however, that the sub opens that door (and the dom is skilled at influencing people) the situation changes. The way I've said it is that Carol unlocked the door and let a master thief into her house. It's too late now to lock them. Could I still get caught by the cops? Sure.... assuming I'm not actually a master thief. She has said to someone who is really good at manipulation, "Go ahead and manipulate me." Predictably, the first thing I did was ensure it'd be easier to gain access next time.


A couple of thoughts here. I totally agree with the "but he can't make me like it" being an external thing. I've actually told him that before - "I will do this, but I'm not going to like it." A couple of years later, I'm the one who asked to do it. It became an internal thing. This was due to a combination of every growing trust, and him influencing my thoughts on the topic.

That said, and it's a personal thing, but we don't subscribe to "mind, body and soul" thing, since we don't believe souls can be owned, but that's a different subject. :)



_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 6:34:17 AM   
chadra


Posts: 32
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline 		First, at the risk of sounding annoyingly repetitive, I'd like to say that this is a very interesting discussion to me. My thanks to all who are participating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
The jury's out in my mind as to whether or not we're looking at the same thing from different perspectives or different things.

I had to sleep on this Jeff, because it's a brain tickler to me too. I'm thinking we're largely discussing the same things, but with very different ways of considering the concepts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
In general, there is this sense in BDSM think that if consent is present then it's not abusive.

I would agree with that statement and further agree with NuevaVida that consensuality does not preclude abuse. That said, I also believe that absence of consent, explicit non-consent, is where abuse begins. I think that explicit non-consent is not what is under discussion though. Rather, we're talking about submissive consent in conjunction with skillful dominant influence. Or manipulation, if you will. It's a different thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
When I looked at how far I could manipulate her consent I started asking myself questions about coercion. It didn't take me long looking at that to realize that "consent" was not going to be any sort of magic talisman guaranteeing that I was morally or ethically in the right. So it got tossed out as a useful concept.

This was the lightbulb moment for me Jeff. I get what you're saying here. You are finding "consent" to have little value when considering your own ethics as a dominant. I would agree with you - the concept probably provides little comfort as a check and balance within a self-evaluation of behavior.

Yet one doesn't have to consciously consider something in order for it to be true. The sky is blue. I almost never think about that - it just is. Similarly, does one need to actively think and/or discuss "consent" in order for it to be true? Can consent can be implied? I would think it can be, particularly in long-established partnerships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
The moment, however, that the sub opens that door (and the dom is skilled at influencing people) the situation changes. The way I've said it is that Carol unlocked the door and let a master thief into her house. It's too late now to lock them.

Is submissive yielding to a dominant partner an expression of inability to consent? Or is it apples and oranges? Does submissive capitulation to exceed previously established limits - even under dominant manipulation/control - equate to incapability to consent?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
She has said to someone who is really good at manipulation, "Go ahead and manipulate me."

This is a silly analogy but please work with me:

Finding myself unable to sleep, I have flipped on my television in the middle of the night. An infomercial happened to be on the channel. Something about a magic griddle pan that could do all sorts of culinary wonders. To hear the guy talk, it could create gastronomic wonders comparable to Julia Child herself. The programming was insidious, manipulative, influential, and... very, very effective. So almost of their own volition, my fingers dialed the 1-800 number and my voice ordered not one but TWO of these babies. (I'm not proud of myself, by the way.)

Was I influenced? Yes. Was I manipulated? Yes. Was it stupid? Yes. Did I consent? YES.

The point is that I don't believe manipulation or heavy influence removes consensuality. One can agree to be manipulated, be aware of the manipulation, and even revel in it. It's still agreement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Sometimes there's no resistance to that influence. Other times there is more resistance. It'll sort itself out in a dynamic way -- meaning not rigidly conforming to some sort of "me Dom, you sub" sort of framework. In the end, if I am able to overcome whatever resistance is present by whatever means I use then one can say they have "consented". If you want, you can say I "dominated" them and they "submitted". You could also say "we talked and reached an agreement" You could apply whatever construct you want to it but in the end it's a negotiation -- which is how I see all of D/s anyway.

I love this. I completely agree.
-----

I think we'd all consider that Manson and his acolytes were monstrous. (At least I hope so...) It would be difficult to argue that the acolytes were not under enormous influence. Yet I think it may also be difficult to argue that they did not consent to their own actions. This is an outrageous analogy, but gets to the heart of the fact that we all make choices in life.

Many times when one thinks "I had no choice", what s/he is really saying is "One of the choices was so negative that I did not perceive I had it at all". Submit or Leave comes to mind. Leaving may be so overwhelmingly negative in one partner's mind that it doesn't seem a valid choice at all. In reality, though, that choice is always there in consensual relationships.




< Message edited by chadra -- 1/12/2013 6:53:21 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 7:24:39 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		A thought came to mind while I was reading chadra's last post. It's about the whole manipulation subject. I think one of the reasons the Mister does NOT subscribe to the idea of bringing me to think and feel as he does is because he prefers me to be a whole and separate being, completely aware of who I am and of my own thoughts and feelings. Sure there are times when I want something he wants, simply BECAUSE he wants it, but even then we're both aware that at my core, I'd prefer otherwise. But I see a lot of conversations here and there, about how a master brings his/her slave to think like him/her, and who manipulates his/her slave's mind to evolve to this point. I think this is where "consent" becomes tricky. I've been in that place before, in previous relationships. I consented to what he wanted, I even came to want what he wanted, but in the end it wasn't true to my core being, and ultimately wasn't good for me, in varying degrees.

So, knowing me as he now does, and knowing that *I* know myself quite well, I think he is careful to keep that being whole and in tact. He helps me find my way to give him what he wants, but he doesn't make a point of getting into my head so much that I discard my authentic self in exchange for a "mini-him", if that makes sense.

Yes, there was that one thing he wanted that I ended up asking for, which I mentioned in a previous post. Even when I asked for it, I was unsure whether or not I really wanted it or would like it. When we debriefed afterwards, I told him I did NOT like it after all, and I asked for some changes in the future if we ever do it again, to which he agreed, for my benefit. He did not set out to change my thinking so that I would like it, or so that I didn't need anything changed about it. He wants MY reactions to things, not my manipulated desire.

I hope this makes sense. I'll chew on this some more, in case it needs clarification.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 7:34:33 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I just thought of an example, as I posted to the recent "scat" thread. This was a situation with my former owner, in which he got to a point of regularly wanting this of me. He was in my head and had manipulated my thoughts and feelings so much, I believed I wanted it, too, and would readily and without any resistance, venture into this territory with him, despite the horribleness of it. He had my consent. He had my desire. But it was an ultimately manipulated desire, which ended up doing a lot of psychological damage in the end.

Yes, perhaps it's an extreme example, and no he was not an ethical man, but it IS an example, none-the-less, of manipulation of choice and consent, and that the outcome can still be a negative thing, and still do harm. Maybe he felt it was still ethical, and he could look at himself just fine in the mirror. Maybe he didn't see the damage he was doing - I certainly didn't show it at the time because my mind was so manipulated.

I think this is why the Mister and I keep my mind intact as we do.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 8:00:48 AM   
chadra


Posts: 32
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline 		Yes. That is why I was asking if once you remove meaningful consent from the construct, does the outcome become largely a matter of chance (luck, if you will)?

I'm thinking that it does. Some will find themselves with continuing positive relationships. Others will not, and for all sorts of individual reasons. This seems obvious.

I'm certainly not arguing that the concept is particularly useful for an evaluation of ethical behavior nor for determining healthy partnership. That's true even far short of the dynamics presented in this thread. Yet, the struggle in my mind is coming up with a better concept to delineate D/s relationships (even destructive ones) from assault.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 9:16:06 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Not so much luck, I think, as knowing who you are BEFORE giving yourself over, and giving yourself to the right person. Back then, I didn't do either. But, what I got after coming out of that relationship was an opportunity to build myself into the person I was meant to be (and I continue to do so) and the wisdom for myself to not hand over my mind again. I'm with someone who wants that for me, as well. He has authority over me, but, at least now and in the last almost 4 years, he does not want to tinker with my mind to the degree it's been tinkered with in the past.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 10:15:12 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Man... I woke up to so much interesting commentary on this thread...

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I can really relate to this Jeff. I even told Master a few months ago about how much more I think like him since we met, how he has made me think of things in his way, made me like things or dislike things and all that.

Yup... that exactly... now play it forward another 15 years or so and imagine how little this whole concept of "what you like" and/or "what you consent to" matters. That's the thing LP has reminded me of. In our case, despite the fact that we didn't really understand it early on, this is a very, very entrenched dynamic that's been producing very positive results for a long time. Carol's thinking is much like yours when I give her some horrible command. There's this sometimes visible shrugging of the shoulders and the thought/statement, "Well I'm his". Then, just as she said above, she picks up the oar and starts rowing. The only real difference other than time is that I'm not a sadist. So if I want something that's going to hurt her emotionally I just change the emotions up front.

Nueva added: A thought came to mind while I was reading chadra's last post. It's about the whole manipulation subject. I think one of the reasons the Mister does NOT subscribe to the idea of bringing me to think and feel as he does is because he prefers me to be a whole and separate being, completely aware of who I am and of my own thoughts and feelings.
This is another thing which drives my different viewpoint on internally changing her. For both Carol and I, being on the same page is critically important. When we are not it produces such a nasty tension in our marriage that neither of us can stand it. For me in particular (and now her), "intimacy" is the goal. We don't want to be two separate people. We want to be "us". The longevity of the relationship adds into this area also. By the time I started really working this aspect of our dynamic I'd already known and loved her for more than a decade. So I'm pretty well aware of what I'm changing and the likely impacts on her. Needless to say, that inspires a lot of trust in her and a lot of confidence in me. We are not two people who met last week at a play party.

Nueva further went on to say: but it IS an example, none-the-less, of manipulation of choice and consent, and that the outcome can still be a negative thing, and still do harm. Maybe he felt it was still ethical, and he could look at himself just fine in the mirror. Maybe he didn't see the damage he was doing - I certainly didn't show it at the time because my mind was so manipulated.
Yup... same stuff although I would I have considered this a failed attempt. The change, quite obviously, was not truly down to the core. I would not have proceeded with my desire until I'd finished the job on the internal remodeling. What you describe sounds like quite a bit more than "window dressing" but far short of "a total remodel" -- if that makes sense. Had this been "done" to my standards you'd still desire scat play and you'd like it.



_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 10:34:35 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:


Yup... same stuff although I would I have considered this a failed attempt. The change, quite obviously, was not truly down to the core. I would not have proceeded with my desire until I'd finished the job on the internal remodeling. What you describe sounds like quite a bit more than "window dressing" but far short of "a total remodel" -- if that makes sense. Had this been "done" to my standards you'd still desire scat play and you'd like it.


I just want to say that this is exactly how I visualized domination. The whole internal remodeling. I hope I meet someone who gets this part. I also think it made alot sense to achieve "being as one" in thoughts and feelings, for happiness, contentment and harmony for both parties.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 10:40:52 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Jeff,

Would you say that the influence you exert over Carol impairs her ability to give legal consent or amount to undue influence? Has there been any active things you have done through the years that would be similar to applied behavior training? Things that bring about less resistance?

I am a big believer that positive reinforcements and staying away from things that trigger self protection assist with the management of a subordinate personality in these types of relationships.




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 10:51:07 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chadra
I had to sleep on this Jeff, because it's a brain tickler to me too. I'm thinking we're largely discussing the same things, but with very different ways of considering the concepts.

I think there is some of both. In part this is simply a different viewpoint. In part, however, I think there are real differences driven by the fact that Carol is not a dominant/neutral personality who chooses to submit. Nor am I a dominant/neutral personality that chooses to dominate. Put differently, Carol does not submit only to me.... she submits to everyone. Ditto with me and dominance. The fact that we're dealing with base nature here drives inevitable differences in how it all plays out.... PARTICULARLY in the choice/consent area. Nobody can truly choose to be different than they are. In essence, we are both bound by ourselves much more tightly than we are bound by our partner.

One of the common unspoken memes I see is that an "alpha sub" (call it what you will... but "strong-willed", "assertive", etc.) is a superset of a doormat (my favorite word for what Carol is since it gets away from "natural/true" sub). I personally find that idea ludicrous. Different personalities are different and they excel at different things in different ways.

I would agree with that statement and further agree with NuevaVida that consensuality does not preclude abuse. That said, I also believe that absence of consent, explicit non-consent, is where abuse begins. I think that explicit non-consent is not what is under discussion though. Rather, we're talking about submissive consent in conjunction with skillful dominant influence. Or manipulation, if you will. It's a different thing.
Exactly. And for exactly this reason if Carol ever did explicitly not consent I would ask for the collar back. That's because I would not see her as "mine" anymore so wearing the collar would seem sort of ridiculous. At that point (to use the master thief analogy) she has clearly called the cops and thrown me out of the house. There's little point in pretending otherwise. Nor would I, for obvious ethical reasons, continue to actively dominate her although there's no way I could simply stop dominating her altogether without physically separating us (eg: divorce). In point of fact, probably not much would change in a pragmatic day to day fashion except for I'd no longer see her as "property". We both agree that with or without any expectation of obedience (or even desire for obedience) on my part she would obey 99.9% of any suggestion, desire, or command I happened to offer up. In fact, when I did try to free her I failed spectacularly.

It's interesting to ponder what that last bit means in terms of "consent". I cannot stop dominating her and she cannot stop submitting without divorce. Is either of us "consenting" exactly? I kind of see it like fish in water doing what fish do... swimming. Does a fish "consent" to swim? Do you "consent" to breath?

Yet one doesn't have to consciously consider something in order for it to be true. The sky is blue. I almost never think about that - it just is. Similarly, does one need to actively think and/or discuss "consent" in order for it to be true? Can consent can be implied? I would think it can be, particularly in long-established partnerships.
As I said above, if by "consent" you mean "she nodded her head" then I agree. In a legal sense she consents. If, however, the law had the tools to recognize this sort of coercion then the answer might not be so straight-forward. The law very definitely DOES recognize coercion as an important part of consent.

Finding myself unable to sleep, I have flipped on my television in the middle of the night. An infomercial happened to be on the channel. Something about a magic griddle pan that could do all sorts of culinary wonders. To hear the guy talk, it could create gastronomic wonders comparable to Julia Child herself. The programming was insidious, manipulative, influential, and... very, very effective. So almost of their own volition, my fingers dialed the 1-800 number and my voice ordered not one but TWO of these babies. (I'm not proud of myself, by the way.)
Wait a sec here.... you ordered not one, but TWO late night magic cooking tools and people here get squicked out by freakin' fin-dommes? LOL

Many times when one thinks "I had no choice", what s/he is really saying is "One of the choices was so negative that I did not perceive I had it at all". Submit or Leave comes to mind. Leaving may be so overwhelmingly negative in one partner's mind that it doesn't seem a valid choice at all. In reality, though, that choice is always there in consensual relationships.
Which, again, gets right back to the heart of the question in a different direction... self-sovereignty. If someone holds a gun to your head do you give up your freedom or do you prefer the bullet? In Carol's case, the horrific outcome is not "leave" since divorcing her or stopping loving her just isn't in the cards. The horrific outcome is ending up being 99% perfect for me rather than at least striving for 100%. She would see that as "shirking" and that's a seriously negative word to her.

But still.... I think most of us would agree that "She consented because the alternative was I <insert some suitably horrific thing here>" is a bit disingenuous, no? If that were true then there's a ton of law about rape that needs to change, right?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 11:23:02 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

This is another thing which drives my different viewpoint on internally changing her. For both Carol and I, being on the same page is critically important. When we are not it produces such a nasty tension in our marriage that neither of us can stand it. For me in particular (and now her), "intimacy" is the goal. We don't want to be two separate people. We want to be "us". The longevity of the relationship adds into this area also. By the time I started really working this aspect of our dynamic I'd already known and loved her for more than a decade. So I'm pretty well aware of what I'm changing and the likely impacts on her. Needless to say, that inspires a lot of trust in her and a lot of confidence in me. We are not two people who met last week at a play party.

The Mister and I are on the same page. We are two whole beings under the umbrella of "us." We influence each other's thinking, yes, and will continue to do so, but I will still be me, and he will still be him, and we will still be us.

I know you've mentioned longevity a bit, and yes that does play a huge part. But I can't help but think yep, I had that kind of longevity in my 20 year marriage. It was still an unhealthy place for me. I get where you're coming from, but people can still not know what they're doing - even in those long term relationships (not implying that you don't, just putting it out there that to me, longevity is only one part of the whole equation).

quote:


Yup... same stuff although I would I have considered this a failed attempt. The change, quite obviously, was not truly down to the core. I would not have proceeded with my desire until I'd finished the job on the internal remodeling. What you describe sounds like quite a bit more than "window dressing" but far short of "a total remodel" -- if that makes sense. Had this been "done" to my standards you'd still desire scat play and you'd like it.



Being that it was my experience, I'm going to completely disagree with the "window dressing" notion. It is my belief, based on being in two different relationships in which men were in my head and changing me, I am totally confident that, while my entire way of thinking, believing, feeling, behaving - everything - changed, when the relationships ended and I was left basically a shell of a person (since my identity and foundation were based on someone who was now gone), in time I came back to the original (albeit wiser and improved) person that started out. It was pretty amazing to hear from family and very long term friends, "Wow, it's so good to see YOU back." In my world, internal remodeling is as permanent as the relationship. People go back to who they are. One party leaves, dies, whatever...the other comes back to their core.

Personally, I don't want to be changed that much again. I would not have aligned myself with someone who would want that.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 11:27:09 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:


Yup... same stuff although I would I have considered this a failed attempt. The change, quite obviously, was not truly down to the core. I would not have proceeded with my desire until I'd finished the job on the internal remodeling. What you describe sounds like quite a bit more than "window dressing" but far short of "a total remodel" -- if that makes sense. Had this been "done" to my standards you'd still desire scat play and you'd like it.


I just want to say that this is exactly how I visualized domination. The whole internal remodeling. I hope I meet someone who gets this part. I also think it made alot sense to achieve "being as one" in thoughts and feelings, for happiness, contentment and harmony for both parties.


I've been internally remodeled. Twice. I see things much differently now. Being "as" one, is one thing - that's two or more separate people coming together to function as one force. But we're still separate individuals, over here, at least. He finds me pretty fascinating, and does not want that individuality about me to go away, because it's so entertaining for him. In turn, that makes me love, admire and respect him even more. And THAT brings amazing happiness, contentment and harmony for us.

Again, speaking for how things are for us over here, and why. Not speaking for anyone else.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 11:33:47 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Would you say that the influence you exert over Carol impairs her ability to give legal consent or amount to undue influence? Has there been any active things you have done through the years that would be similar to applied behavior training? Things that bring about less resistance?

Interesting question but one I'm unable to answer. I have little interest in "behavior training" in the sense that you mean it. Largely, that's because my native instincts are much better than anything I've ever found in a textbook. I've always blown off book theory when it comes to this sort of thing... my management practices... my interpersonal practices... everything. I find the book theory to be largely stupid in a wide variety of ways. I'm not against "book learning" in general but in the area of psychology I find a lot of stuff to be "made-up hocus pocus".

The answer to your question about legalities I've already covered but I can go over in more detail. The law does not currently recognize this sort of coercion so I'm legally in the clear. Nor do I think it can recognize this sort of coercion even though in some cases it'd be appropriate. I think modern sexual abuse laws are tangling in this area of "consent" and getting to some pretty damned squirrely places. Even if the law did recognize this sort of coercion you'd never get any judge, jury, DA, etc. to pursue it in our case simply because the actual results are just so plainly positive. I have a hard time thinking it'd even occur to anyone. People as a rule just aren't that stupid.

I am a big believer that positive reinforcements and staying away from things that trigger self protection assist with the management of a subordinate personality in these types of relationships.
There's been a lot of research done on carrot vs. stick. I don't really see the need to revisit it. Both are prudent courses of action in the proper circumstances. In general I go with the idea that you need roughly 10 carrots for every stick. In the case of a truly subordinate personality as opposed to just a subordinate the stick becomes almost entirely unnecessary anyway skewing that ratio further. Despite common BDSM wisdom, there is a massive price tag that is paid for each use of the stick. Paying that price needlessly is, if nothing else, inefficient. In other words, your stance is "just plain common sense" -- which is, as always, not as common as it ought to be.

Note my common statement, "I think I have en-loved Carol more than I have enslaved her".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 11:54:22 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
The Mister and I are on the same page. We are two whole beings under the umbrella of "us." We influence each other's thinking, yes, and will continue to do so, but I will still be me, and he will still be him, and we will still be us.

Damnit... I knew I wrote that whole response sloppily. You two, by everything I've ever seen you write, have a freakin great relationship and by my measures an extremely strong dynamic. Of course you are on the same page enough for you two. From what I can discern, we need to be moreso.

I know you've mentioned longevity a bit, and yes that does play a huge part. But I can't help but think yep, I had that kind of longevity in my 20 year marriage. It was still an unhealthy place for me. I get where you're coming from, but people can still not know what they're doing - even in those long term relationships (not implying that you don't, just putting it out there that to me, longevity is only one part of the whole equation).
*nods* I should have said "long-term relationship that produced reliably very positive results so just got better and better over time. Duration, in and of itself, means little. We have been on a self-reinforcing upward spiral for almost 20 years.

quote:

Being that it was my experience, I'm going to completely disagree with the "window dressing" notion.

specifically, what i said was quite a bit more than window dressing. If we're going with the housing analogy it might think of it like a complete addition to the house but one where the foundation was not well laid so over time... well... Window dressing, to me, is stuff like commanding her to call me "master" so she does. Yay.

People go back to who they are. One party leaves, dies, whatever...the other comes back to their core.
Absolutely... what we're talking about here is changing that core so the place they go back to is now a new place.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/12/2013 12:10:43 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Absolutely... what we're talking about here is changing that core so the place they go back to is now a new place.

Thanks for the clarification. On this point, I'll just say I can only speak to my experience and my reality. Yes, it's a new place, but a new place based on discoveries about what now works for someone, and who they have always been at their core, even though they changed that place for a time.

As you said, "the place they go back to." Who they originally were at the core, albeit with influences and lessons from others.

I'd be interested to hear from someone who is a few years outside a long term (say, 15+ years) relationship in which they were deeply changed at their core, to see what their experience is. Until then, everything discussed here is theory, and not necessarily truth to me. Don't believe it? How many times have people written to me on these boards about all the changes they've seen in me since I posted under my previous name? And trust me when I say, back then I wrote from a place I truly believed and felt. Those were core changes, but they turned out to be temporary core changes - they did not stick after the relationship because those changes were not actually aligned with the real core me. In the past, my identity was "his." My thoughts, beliefs, feelings, etc., were what he created in me. Those did not stick long term when the relationship ended. I'm talking life philosophies, political views, religious beliefs, etc. In other words, I became an individual again, and the basics of my very nature/spirit returned to what it once was. I say "basics" because obviously some details will change and evolve along the way.

I hope that makes sense. I appreciate the theoretical discussions, even though I disagree with a lot of what's been said. I appreciate the opportunity to think on these things.


ETA: I'm not trying to negate what others want or feel in their relationships. Just expressing my point of view based on my own experiences. Apparently it's a topic I'm kind of passionate about since I had to do a LOT of work to find my way back to me. For example, the first time I went grocery shopping after I left my ex husband of 20 years, I remember I walked up and down the isles with an empty shopping cart and tears streaming down my face, because I realized I didn't know what I liked to eat. Did I like something because HE liked it? I believed I liked that particular food, but I no longer knew for sure, and had to rediscover it. That's one tiny example of what I'm talking about. It works while you're IN the relationship (hey I was happy eating those things at the time), but for many of us there is an AFTER the relationship (for whatever reason), and what happens then? So, is it a responsible thing, to change someone's thinking to that degree? I don't know the answer to that. I just know it's not likely to happen with me again.

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 1/12/2013 12:15:58 PM >

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/13/2013 12:48:22 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Well, I can't argue with the theory part. In the end the only thing that'll tell that will be me dying before her and frankly, I'm not real keen on that :)

There is no question the changes I make in her go deep, but you experienced the same thing. Whether they are permanent or not is just guesswork. The obvious answer is, "some yes, some no".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094