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RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 8:12:53 PM

Real0ne

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Its early yet. I am waiting to hear what they believe are in fact the substantive differences as I said in the last post.

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RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 8:29:33 PM

tazzygirl

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In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime

And, just so we dont get side tracked with definitions....

The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines aggravated assault as an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury. The UCR Program further specifies that this type of assault is usually accompanied by the use of a weapon or by other means likely to produce death or great bodily harm. Attempted aggravated assault that involves the display of—or threat to use—a gun, knife, or other weapon is included in this crime category because serious personal injury would likely result if the assault were completed. When aggravated assault and larceny-theft occur together, the offense falls under the category of robbery.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/aggravatedassaultmain

Now, take into consideration what the UK considers Violent Crime....

The Home Office defines violent crime as robbery, sexual offences, and a group of Violence Against the Person offences ranging from assault without injury, through wounding, to homicide.

http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0708/reducing_the_risk_of_violent_c.aspx

The UK includes any assault against the person, including a push or a shove, as a violent crime.

And, yes, I can back that up too.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/12/2013 8:32:19 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 8:30:44 PM

Kirata

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~ FR ~

Rates of Assault and Rape by country:

Assault

Rape

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/12/2013 8:33:01 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 23

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 8:45:41 PM

Powergamz1

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And apparently nothing has changed since this was passed around a week or so ago, in that the BHO refuses to count any incidents of battery beyond 5 a year, meaning that the most victimized groups (battered partners, forced slaves, etc.) are conveniently massaged out of the data set.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be a contest, people shouldn't be keeping nationalistic scores, or playing jingoistic denial games with the numbers. Victimization is a world-wide epidemic.

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Post #: 24

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 9:10:38 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime

And, just so we dont get side tracked with definitions....

The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines aggravated assault as an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury. The UCR Program further specifies that this type of assault is usually accompanied by the use of a weapon or by other means likely to produce death or great bodily harm. Attempted aggravated assault that involves the display of—or threat to use—a gun, knife, or other weapon is included in this crime category because serious personal injury would likely result if the assault were completed. When aggravated assault and larceny-theft occur together, the offense falls under the category of robbery.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/aggravatedassaultmain

Now, take into consideration what the UK considers Violent Crime....

The Home Office defines violent crime as robbery, sexual offences, and a group of Violence Against the Person offences ranging from assault without injury, through wounding, to homicide.

http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0708/reducing_the_risk_of_violent_c.aspx

The UK includes any assault against the person, including a push or a shove, as a violent crime.

And, yes, I can back that up too.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf

wonderful!

Now once again.

How IN SUBSTANCE does that change the outcome of the data.

Lets see your comparative results.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Post #: 25

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 9:15:16 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And apparently nothing has changed since this was passed around a week or so ago, in that the BHO refuses to count any incidents of battery beyond 5 a year, meaning that the most victimized groups (battered partners, forced slaves, etc.) are conveniently massaged out of the data set.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be a contest, people shouldn't be keeping nationalistic scores, or playing jingoistic denial games with the numbers. Victimization is a world-wide epidemic.

well we have all these brits and fans purporting to banning everything they can think of with their ever expanding protection racket as somehow actually working and we as americans should be really impressed, ban n cam everything over here and follow their illuminated lead.

Yet they cannot seem to muster up "what it really means" and just keep tossing out vague definitions without any real data to support those claims.

From K

I get the impression they feel lots of knife fights are better than a few gun fights.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/12/2013 9:29:53 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 26

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 9:29:06 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

wonderful!

Now once again.

How IN SUBSTANCE does that change the outcome of the data.

Lets see your comparative results.

If its not included, there cannot be a comparison.

Its like comparing rape rates between the US and Sweden.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 27

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 9:35:18 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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sure there can!

well then cypher by exclusion and post your data!

You dont really expect to stand on your soap box claiming everyone else is wrong then tell us they did not supply you with the appropriate data to make those claims.

in fact you still have not explained what the substantial differences are line item by line item.

that would be a good place to start. I do not see substantial differences that would change the outcome enough to be worth mentioning.

But since you do go for it.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/12/2013 9:38:13 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 28

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 9:44:55 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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LOL

when the defintions of the terms do not include the same acts, its like comparing oranges to tangerines.

Give me the numbers that show the equivalent crime numbers between countries and I may agree with you on those numbers. As it is, you have not. The proof is still upon you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 29

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/12/2013 10:05:12 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

LOL

when the defintions of the terms do not include the same acts, its like comparing oranges to tangerines.

Give me the numbers that show the equivalent crime numbers between countries and I may agree with you on those numbers. As it is, you have not. The proof is still upon you.

check post 26

then you explain and remove the acts that are not the same make the appropriate comparison and post your results.

that is by exclusion.

you have not shown that to be the case.

you presume that to be the case.

you are claiming that all these data reporting agencies are wrong to the extent that it would drastically change the outcome in favor of britain, (or disfavor to the US), and that is fine if you got the goods and it is starting to appear you do not.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/12/2013 10:25:54 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 30

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 4:51:24 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

do your own homework. Ive used home office records. Ive used from the source, you have offered up nothing but a newspaper headline with no links no exclusions PLUS the stupid analogy of gun fights versus knife fights.. the figures speak for themselves
638 murders in the UK in 2010...60 million pop x 5= 3175 murders(to match pop size of US)
554 in Canada in 2010 ...30 million pop x10=5540 murders(to match pop size of US)
14748 in the US.....300, million pop

your figure shows 1,158, 597 violent crimes in the UK My figure shows 401,467 with injury 469, 954 without injury for a total of violence aginst the person of 871,396.
your figures, not standing up against official figures by 287,201.
Please explain the disconnect.

Kiratas very kind addition to the conversation fails to mention the figures are for 2002, and not figures from the home office and are given as a percentage of the population, not per 100,000
Rape victims 0.9% [6th of 20]
DEFINITION: People victimized by sexual assault (as a % of the total population). Data refer to female population only. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.
SOURCE: The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2002) (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)
Us Rates are only given as forcible rape, the UK goes into 20 different crimes.
You wanna argue points? go for it, alone, you are again so far off the rails you wont ever get back on em.

BTW Id rather be a victim of a knife fight than a gun fight, as Im sure, the death rates prove, you have a better chance of surviving. Or you could ask the parents of the children slashed in china if they would rather have been going to funerals like the sandy hook parents had to.

Violence is not going to end..unfortunately... giving idiots more powerful weapons to do the job sure isnt helping.

PS if you think IM going to go any further with proving my point regarding crime figures given by the daily mail, when I already proved you wrong by 287,000 or so, then you can go and bugger pussy cats, or pay me 300$ an hour.

Now Im done... because YOU are simply not worth the effort...

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(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 31

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 11:36:41 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The UK includes any assault against the person, including a push or a shove, as a violent crime.

In fairness, I do think poking somebody in the eye is as bad as blowing his head off - morally speaking. (Well, I would do, if I had an exceptionally stupid sense of morals, anyway)

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Post #: 32

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 11:52:50 AM

Powergamz1

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Literally poking someone in the eye during an attack would be aggravated assault, and count as a violent crime in the UCR.

But as any criminologist learns in their intro class, chasing crime numbers is a fool's errand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The UK includes any assault against the person, including a push or a shove, as a violent crime.

In fairness, I do think poking somebody in the eye is as bad as blowing his head off - morally speaking. (Well, I would do, if I had an exceptionally stupid sense of morals, anyway)

_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 33

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:06:02 PM

meatcleaver

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Britain became more violent only because people were more willing to report crime. For example, reported rapes went up in the 90s but there was no evidence rapes actually increased, the evidence suggested women felt they were taken more seriously if the reported rape in the 90s and so felt more confident in going to the police. Throughout the 90s there was a growing confidence in the police as the country felt more affluent. The irony is, crime probably went down in the 90s from a high in the 80s when many crimes weren't reported, particularly in northern industrial areas where the police were seen as synonymous with the conservative government after the major industrial upheavals when police were seen in many areas, to be politicized by the Thatcher government. Where I came from, no one would report anything to the police, which meant crime went down, even though there was a violent miners strike for a year.

if the police are seen as corrupt, crime goes down because people don't report crime to the police.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/13/2013 3:15:26 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:11:00 PM

meatcleaver

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Another reason I wouldn't trust those figures is the difference in reporting crime from country to country and the different action police take. I've lived in 5 different European countries over the last 25 years and different police cultures make an enormous difference in reported crime. In Holland you see people getting unofficial warning for crimes that in England the person would be prosecuted. France lock up soft drug abusers while Holland takes no legal action at all and England often gives an official caution.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/13/2013 3:14:05 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:40:41 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Rates of Assault and Rape by country:

Assault

Rape

K.

Again, we come to the statistics. Sweden has a broader definition of rape than in many countries, which would not consider many rapes in Sweden to be rapes so naturally Sweden has more reported rapes because of this. The Assange case has brought this anomally strongly into focus.

EDITED TO SAY: The only statistic that can be taken as accurate is murder, where there is a body to count.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/13/2013 3:49:59 PM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 36

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:54:21 PM

tazzygirl

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What I found interesting is how the US doesnt report sexual crimes to children. Neither did Sweden.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 37

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:55:18 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

it takes time to compile all that data and get it published, so it is as up to date as I could find.

However if you have more recent live and up to the microsecond numbers that you would consider RIGHT I am sure everyone would love to see them.

Not only out of date, but from an anti-Labour party paper known for playing loses with figures.

Did you notice the source of the table........ no home office figures mentioned. Even your link has a clue to the truth.

quote:

But Police Minister David Hanson said: 'These figures are misleading.
Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz2Hu2FdqV5
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

To sum up the Op..........fucking laughable.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 38

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:55:51 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

EDITED TO SAY: The only statistic that can be taken as accurate is murder, where there is a body to count.

Some countries do those stats by interviews.

Dead body... no family... no witness... no inclusion in the count.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 39

RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4&qu... - 1/13/2013 3:57:58 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

EDITED TO SAY: The only statistic that can be taken as accurate is murder, where there is a body to count.

Some countries do those stats by interviews.

Dead body... no family... no witness... no inclusion in the count.

There you go, not even murder statistics are accurate.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 40

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