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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/20/2013 10:30:35 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		The 3/5 solution is sometimes cited as proof that the Framers were all a bunch of racists, or that America was founded on the principle that black people weren't human, like Australia's 0/5 doctrine (terra nullius).

Just wanted to pimp the facts, they don't always get the loving they need around here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

quote:

The 3/5 clause was put in there to allay concerns that slave states would count their slave population and gain extra representatives to vote in slavery in perpetuity.


Well, that's why it wasn't a 5/5 clause. The states with lots of slaves would have preferred that formula; the states with few slaves would have preferred a 0/5 clause...so they met in the middle. And 3/5 was a measure already in use under the Articles of Confederation, to add to the fact that it was in between the two sides. That's why I used the word "compromise."

And to answer the OP about why militia didn't stop the British in the War of 1812: militia are never as good as regular, professional troops. Additionally, the U.S. was not really prepared to fight a war at that time. It was a war that nobody really wanted, but we got anyway.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 1/20/2013 10:32:24 AM >

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/20/2013 5:17:10 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

This is an interesting topic and I like Kirata's take on it.

I wonder, if there isn't some basis in fact to a statement: "Gun control is racist"?

Based upon:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
An act for preventing Negroes Insurrections. WHEREAS the frequent meeting of considerable numbers of negroe slaves under pretence of feasts and burialls is judged of dangerous consequence; for prevention whereof for the future, Bee it enacted by the kings most excellent majestie by and with the consent of the generall assembly, and it is hereby enacted by the authority aforesaid, that from and after the publication of this law, it shall not be lawfull for any negroe or other slave to carry or arme himselfe with any club, staffe, gunn, sword or any other weapon of defence or offence ~Acts of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1680


... it would certainly seem that at least once in history gun control was enacted in order to keep weapons out of the hands of certain people.

Now, before all the usual suspects start throwing the word "racist" at me, I haven't been pro gun control since I was 16 and stopped living in the Utopian construct world of my ignorant youth. On top of that, it would seem that another poster that's generally on the left of things has already suggested (much like this OP) that gun control is a racist idea. They did so here

So, I think it bears some scrutiny that gun control has at least some of its roots in racism. Does this mean that racism (by way of gun control) is a part of the Democratic platform or is it another case of "conveniently movable moral code"?



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Dem good`ol days are missed....(fyi,there`s no such thing.....)

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/20/2013 11:32:16 PM   
jlf1961


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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 9:50:34 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am formally announcing my intention to form the Free person's militia to protect the public from Starbucks.


Now you did it, after almost 20 years of not owning a firearm, I am going to have to buy guns, GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY COFFEE!!!

So what is being said here is that it is alright for whites to own all the guns they want but black who are 3/5 or a person should not own firearms, makes sense to me. Yes the NRA was created in 1871 at Church put it "The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis". They had no interest in the 2nd Amendment. In the 1920s and 30's the NRA was for gun control. They only changed that in the 60's when they saw pictures of the Black Panthers carrying guns.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 1/21/2013 10:09:39 AM >

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 10:52:55 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

In the 1920s and 30's the NRA was for gun control.

Please set forth the gun-control measures that the NRA sought to have enacted during this period and cite your source.

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 10:59:42 AM   
Tallblkdom


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


The "bone" was gun-control, not the Second Amendment. Gun-control originated as a way to keep guns out of black hands.

K.


Exactly, but also Boston had gun control levied against the general population as well. I've always viewed gun control as inherently racist in it's roots. I've been pointing out the facts below for 20 yrs or more.


http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html

http://www.old-yankee.com/rkba/racial_laws.html

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 11:02:04 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am formally announcing my intention to form the Free person's militia to protect the public from Starbucks.


Now you did it, after almost 20 years of not owning a firearm, I am going to have to buy guns, GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY COFFEE!!!

So what is being said here is that it is alright for whites to own all the guns they want but black who are 3/5 or a person should not own firearms, makes sense to me. Yes the NRA was created in 1871 at Church put it "The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis". They had no interest in the 2nd Amendment. In the 1920s and 30's the NRA was for gun control. They only changed that in the 60's when they saw pictures of the Black Panthers carrying guns.

With your vast knowlege you are aware of the fact that the Constitution does not say that black are 3/5 of a person but that the slaveowners only get to count 3/5 of them for represintation in congress

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 11:04:34 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

In the 1920s and 30's the NRA was for gun control.

Please set forth the gun-control measures that the NRA sought to have enacted during this period and cite your source.

K.

Why you don't sight sources....I am still waiting on all those supports of Lott you claim...

but what the .... here a little something

"In 1934, the group’s president Karl T. Frederick (President of the NRA) testified in support of certain gun regulations that later made it into the National Firearms Act of 1934, one of the first federal gun laws. The law regulated “gangster weapons” used by organized crime, such as machine guns and short barrel shotguns."

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 11:08:22 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am formally announcing my intention to form the Free person's militia to protect the public from Starbucks.


Now you did it, after almost 20 years of not owning a firearm, I am going to have to buy guns, GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY COFFEE!!!

So what is being said here is that it is alright for whites to own all the guns they want but black who are 3/5 or a person should not own firearms, makes sense to me. Yes the NRA was created in 1871 at Church put it "The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis". They had no interest in the 2nd Amendment. In the 1920s and 30's the NRA was for gun control. They only changed that in the 60's when they saw pictures of the Black Panthers carrying guns.

With your vast knowlege you are aware of the fact that the Constitution does not say that black are 3/5 of a person but that the slaveowners only get to count 3/5 of them for represintation in congress


Oh so your saying the slaves, well most of them were not black?...they were purple...

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 11:14:26 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Which was a compromise, in that the situation of the constitution and reality was that people were taxed on a per head basis, (yanno, no taxation without representation) and the south wanted the slave numbers counted for representation, but not for taxation.)

They were way under populated compared to the northern states, and a poorer agrarian society.  (both ideas of which were revisited and seriously pandered during the dust up leading up to and including the illegal war on America in the mid 1800s)


That same compromise gave us the early constitutional language, the electoral college and the representatives in the house breakdown.

Those regional differences are with us today and still cause tensions. 

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 1:01:11 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

"In 1934, the group’s president Karl T. Frederick (President of the NRA) testified in support of certain gun regulations that later made it into the National Firearms Act of 1934, one of the first federal gun laws. The law regulated “gangster weapons” used by organized crime, such as machine guns and short barrel shotguns."

When I ask for a citation, that means providing a link to your source. But I'll assume you just forgot.

In the same vein, you also "forgot" that as originally conceived pistols and revolvers were to be regulated as strictly as machine guns. The NRA opposed this sweeping incursion on the 2nd Amendment and was instrumental in preserving the rights we enjoy today in the final version of the act.

Nice try, though.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/21/2013 1:44:26 PM >

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 2:03:01 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Kirata,am I to understand you to be of the opinion that the NRA represents the needs and desires of gun owners ?
Fuck all,for years and years I was under the impression that they were a lobbying group for gun manufacturers .....lol


Guess I was confused.......lol

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 2:29:15 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Guess I was confused.......lol

Apparently for years.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 4:29:03 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

"In 1934, the group’s president Karl T. Frederick (President of the NRA) testified in support of certain gun regulations that later made it into the National Firearms Act of 1934, one of the first federal gun laws. The law regulated “gangster weapons” used by organized crime, such as machine guns and short barrel shotguns."

When I ask for a citation, that means providing a link to your source. But I'll assume you just forgot.

In the same vein, you also "forgot" that as originally conceived pistols and revolvers were to be regulated as strictly as machine guns. The NRA opposed this sweeping incursion on the 2nd Amendment and was instrumental in preserving the rights we enjoy today in the final version of the act.

Nice try, though.

K.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ (I did not forget, just ignoring)

Oh the information came from the NRA, I am sure you would have seen it before..

I am sure that people like Raul Rodrigues, James Patrick Wonder, and so many other appreciate the NRA efforts, right up to and beyond when the killed.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 1/21/2013 4:46:41 PM >

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RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 5:39:53 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Guess I was confused.......lol

Apparently for years.

K.

Yeah....right,I'm the one that's confused....lol
You are tooo fucking funny....lol.

Are you seriously under the illusion that the NRA is NOT a lobbying arm for the gun industry ?
Ignorance must indeed be blissful

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 6:19:33 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Guess I was confused.......lol

Apparently for years.

K.

Yeah....right,I'm the one that's confused....lol
You are tooo fucking funny....lol.

Are you seriously under the illusion that the NRA is NOT a lobbying arm for the gun industry ?
Ignorance must indeed be blissful


Well you can say he does carry the party line

The NRA opposed this sweeping incursion on the 2nd Amendment and was instrumental in preserving the rights we enjoy today in the final version of the act.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 6:42:26 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		What ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 7:54:29 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Are you seriously under the illusion that the NRA is NOT a lobbying arm for the gun industry ?

The gun industry's trade organization is the NSSF.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 8:00:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am formally announcing my intention to form the Free person's militia to protect the public from Starbucks.


Now you did it, after almost 20 years of not owning a firearm, I am going to have to buy guns, GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY COFFEE!!!

So what is being said here is that it is alright for whites to own all the guns they want but black who are 3/5 or a person should not own firearms, makes sense to me. Yes the NRA was created in 1871 at Church put it "The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis". They had no interest in the 2nd Amendment. In the 1920s and 30's the NRA was for gun control. They only changed that in the 60's when they saw pictures of the Black Panthers carrying guns.

With your vast knowlege you are aware of the fact that the Constitution does not say that black are 3/5 of a person but that the slaveowners only get to count 3/5 of them for represintation in congress


Oh so your saying the slaves, well most of them were not black?...they were purple...

selective misinterpitation the only thing the 3/5 clause was relevant to was congresional representation. The slave holders wanted a complete counting of slaves for this purpose and anti slavers did not want them to be counted at all. Talk about failed comedy.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Was the 2nd Amendment a bone tossed to Slave States? - 1/21/2013 8:34:24 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Are you seriously under the illusion that the NRA is NOT a lobbying arm for the gun industry ?

The gun industry's trade organization is the NSSF.

K.


And they do seem to be in bussiness together

http://www.gopai.com/shooting/

http://www.nssf.org/ranges/rangeresources/library/detail.cfm?filename=facility_mngmnt/design/baffles_berms.htm

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/news/nssf-files-supreme-court-brief-to-aid-nra/?right=related

http://nssfmarketplace.com/company.php?id=119112&company=

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7460

must be real cozy under the sheets...

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Profile   Post #: 40
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