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RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 2:14:10 PM

SomethingCatchy

Posts: 796
Joined: 7/29/2008
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I use that crappy piece of mental vomit as a judge of character. If anyone ever tells me 'Oh I loved them!' I politely never talk to them again. Ever.

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(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)

Post #: 21

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 2:23:14 PM

Jaquin

Posts: 156
Joined: 12/12/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I can honestly and with 100% certainty say that if his two other assault charges were also by women he was in BDSM relationships with, it is him, not them. I can see there being confusion once, but three times? Not a chance.

Granted the odds are not in his favor and perhaps he is just abusive - but what we have is a window into a larger picture and it is hardly enough to go passing judgements on without even consideration for all possibilities. Having dealt with many, many, people (comes with being a cashier) I can assure you based purely on my own personal experiences that there are cases in which someone is accused of something many more then just three times and it's still false.

Rumors propagate, they spread and fill in gaps; just as you're doing now - you feel it's a forgone conclusion. Well perhaps the first was just "Oh well we don't know but we'll assume it was abuse." and the second time was "Oh well he's abused before so it must be abuse." and it's now turned into "No chance it's not abuse."

Accusations like that have this tricky ability to worm their way into peoples heads and make them unable to see it any other way. And it is easily possible for a list of accusations to build up - because if he's abusive then why not also a thief if someone says they suspect him of that? See, thing is about society and humans in general, we find it really easy to pile on the charges; to say "Hey this guys already bad, that must mean he just does a lot of bad stuff." and we think little to nothing of adding to his list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If he didn't mean "to make her cry," he would have stopped when she started crying.

And who says he didn't? Where in the article does it explicitly say that he continued to flog/whip/smack her when she started crying?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If that is what you gathered from the article, well, if it happens to you someday, I hope you don't waste time reporting it.

She's a moron plain and simple. Nobody in their right mind puts themselves into a position like that without knowing how far it will go. She got what she asked for, what she agreed to. Simply because she didn't understand what she was signing doesn't mean that she should get some kind of sympathy.

Why should the courts have to waste time dealing with someone who went into a situation willingly simply because she failed to educate herself on what it truly means. She knew there would be pain, it's her own damn fault for not setting up how much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Honestly, this just shows that while people may be more aware that BDSM exists, it proves they are still clueless as to how it works in the real world outside of books.

On this I agree - but then perhaps that just means our job should be starting right now. How do you think they're going to find out how it works outside of books? Do you think they'll all wander into a club and check out the scene?

Now's the time when we - the self appointed apparent know it alls of proper BDSM practice - should be educating people right? We can show all the sympathy, apathy, etc we want on a forum but that won't save the next girl from abuse and the next guy from prosecution.

Or is it to much work to speak up against the norm?

_____________________________

"The feeling of freedom, and freedom denied."

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 22

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 3:39:18 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

Overall, wow, just wow. That is my most primary reaction to your post.

There is no way to say this without coming off as insulting, but really, working as a cashier doesn't give you all that much insight into the human psyche. Sorry, but your two minute contact with individuals as a cashier simply doesn't do it.

Let me say first, that my opinion is based on the information in the article, nothing more, nothing less. Also, my professional life was working within the social work/legal field, along with the fact that I have much more experience working with and observing human behavior for long than two minute intervals, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, I'm far more qualified to make observations on this than you are.

Scientifically and statistically, it is not often that people are accused of things many times of the same exact thing and having it be false. That isn't saying it doesn't happen, just that it isn't often. From a legal standpoint, it is also not common for someone to say that a person with a record for assualt is suddenly going to be accused of theft. Quite the opposite really. Someone with a history of assault is not going to be accused of theft because that isn't "their" typical crime. However, someone with a history of assault could logically be looked at for murder, and a convicted burglar could be suspected for armed robbery. See the connection?

You do understand that "no" and "stop" mean "no" and "stop," right? Responding "why are you doing this to me" with "tough shit" is indicative, both legally and SSC/RACK wise that the d-type needs to evaluate whether the s-type might be retracting their consent. I'm sure you also know that regardless of contracts signed, if someone realizes that what was discussed turns out NOT to be what they thought it would and decides they know longer want to participate, either party has the right to back out. Based on the article, she WAS backing out, and he was ignoring it. From a legal standpoint in the US, as well as from a BDSM standpoint is where there was no longer consent, and he was therefore assaulting her.

Note in the article, that the accused was not simply "charged" with assaulting three other women on separate occasions, he was CONVICTED. In other words, the courts found, beyond a reasonable doubt that in those past instances he was guilty of assaulting those women.

We do agree, she was a moron. However, she had been with this guy for a while, and he perhaps did not show his true colors to her. In either case, their agreement was poorly negotiated and left gaping holes as to what each expected to happen in this particular situation.

Why should the courts have to protect such morons? Because that is what the legal system is for. Just like the court will prosecute someone who allegedly is unaware of a law because ignorance is no defense, those same morons get protection under the law. That is just how it works.

As to your comment regarding going out and educating people...you have no idea what I do or don't do to "educate" people about anything, so really the comment, to me, is nothing more than something coming from some young kid who spouts off without thought. There is no "our" job to educate people. There are individual decisions to speak about things that matter to us. This matters to you, go to the park, jump on your soapbox and start talking. As for me, I have dedicated my life to those types of things and to be honest, I think it is time to retire and leave the "education" about how life should work to such knowledgeable youngsters as yourself.

(in reply to Jaquin)

Post #: 23

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 5:16:01 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

I use that crappy piece of mental vomit as a judge of character. If anyone ever tells me 'Oh I loved them!' I politely never talk to them again. Ever.

If you come across someone who loved the books you wouldn't talk to them again? Why? I have friends who tell me they loved them and I shrug and give them my honest opinion on why I didn't. I would not dump a friend because she liked a book I didn't.

_____________________________

Submission is a gift that must be earned. It can be given, but never taken

(in reply to SomethingCatchy)

Post #: 24

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 6:35:48 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

Some people are always going to comment for the shock value. Of course, if I found out that any of my friends would stop speaking to me because of what I read, they wouldn't need to worry. I would dump them as my friends really quick.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)

Post #: 25

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 7:47:54 PM

amira70

Posts: 7
Joined: 9/11/2011
Status: offline

i haven't read any of the books yet...haven't even experienced to be slave RL.....*sigh*.....Cause of many players i soon give up the dream to be collared and chained.....

Was in contact with one who seemed to be soooo serious...we shared same interest for steel bondage....and i loved his ideas and fantasies......Suddenly he stopped contacting me....never sends replies to mails(collarme/yahoo/hotmail) and ignore me on chats.....even he is online.......If not interested he could at least told me...not just ignore me like that....i had big hopes.....since i saw it as my last chance to be slave.....But...he played with my feelings and fantasies....cause i got feelings for him actually....First he says he was desperate to meet me....then totally ignore me...The thought of living boring vanilla rest of my life makes me sad....to never experience any of my fantasies....

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)

Post #: 26

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 7:51:54 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline

Yeah, me too. I understand how not everyone likes the same genre of books and I completely respect that. I have two of my best friends that read those books and loved them. They asked if I had ever heard of BDSM and I just giggled and said a little. After they told me how much they loved the books I told them why I didn't and left it at that.

_____________________________

Submission is a gift that must be earned. It can be given, but never taken

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 27

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 8:18:07 PM

Jaquin

Posts: 156
Joined: 12/12/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
There is no way to say this without coming off as insulting, but really, working as a cashier doesn't give you all that much insight into the human psyche. Sorry, but your two minute contact with individuals as a cashier simply doesn't do it.

And who said I was talking about customers?

See that's the crux isn't it. Assumptions. People are rabid with them. You jump on one view and figure that must be it, you figure you must be right and that's that.

Well no, I wasn't talking about the customers, not in the sense that you think. I'm talking about what the customers say about the fellow employees. As in the customers get a small little glance in to my own or co-workers lives and yet they make assumptions about us - and make said assumptions known. And they don't care if what they say is true or not, and as soon as one opinion sticks it's hard to get rid of.

It only takes a second to form an opinion, and only a second more to share that opinion with the person in line with you. Next you know there's more and more people who talk about "that person there" in some way simply because one person had a bad experience.

So - despite your opinion - I do have some insight due to being a cashier. Because I don't need to be a lawyer or social worker or public representative to meet and talk with and watch people. I could have gathered a similar outlook from sitting on a curb watching people move about their day.

It doesn't take some big special person or job to understand how people work so I really don't care how much more qualified you feel you are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
You do understand that "no" and "stop" mean "no" and "stop," right?

And yet I've met people who say such things and would be pissed if they were heeded. It's part of the game to them. I know people who scream and cry and beg - because that's what makes it for them. And they're some of the safest and nicest people I've met in the community.

Never once have I seen them go to far or heard any story about it, but yet every time they play she ends up in tears. And afterwards she's the happiest girl alive. Because being hurt till she cries and begs is exactly what she wants.

Are you gona say they can't play like that because it's not SSC/RACK compliant? Good luck, they'll laugh in your face and go back to playing and having fun their way.

See that's why we made safewords, as a way to stop play in a way that we wouldn't normally say. The joke, even among those of us who don't care for s/m is that "Ouch" is not a safeword. Your safeword is a safeword, the article says she didn't use it yes? Then anything else could really be considered as "in character" and is hardly usable as some kind of argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Note in the article, that the accused was not simply "charged" with assaulting three other women on separate occasions, he was CONVICTED. In other words, the courts found, beyond a reasonable doubt that in those past instances he was guilty of assaulting those women.

Right because nobody has ever been wrongly convicted of anything ever before in the history of judicial systems. It must be that he's guilty! Despite that all we have is her word that he did something she didn't approve of..

What makes her word so much more trust worthy then his? Because he has past convictions? What makes those accusations trustworthy? What if they were based purely on someone elses word that he abused them? Thing is, we don't know. But you're willing to jump on the "he's guilty" bandwagon simply because an equal stranger said he is - and because prior cases of conviction (which we know can never be wrong...) exist.

Seems a rather flimsy reason to consider his guilt absolute.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
We do agree, she was a moron. However, she had been with this guy for a while, and he perhaps did not show his true colors to her. In either case, their agreement was poorly negotiated and left gaping holes as to what each expected to happen in this particular situation.

Says who? Did you read their contract?

She says that she knew pain would be used as punishment. Can you even conceive of the fact that perhaps she's the one lying or twisting things?

I'm not saying she is, just like I'm not saying he's innocent. What I'm saying is - why do people always just jump to the conclusion that; when someone cries abuse, that the "abused" is being truthful?

If I got into a fight with my Miss and she'd recently done some impact play - could I run to the police and charge her? Despite that I wasn't abused, I could act as if I was to spite her. How can you be sure that's not the case?

You can't. But you assume it isn't. Why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
As to your comment regarding going out and educating people...you have no idea what I do or don't do to "educate" people about anything, so really the comment, to me, is nothing more than something coming from some young kid who spouts off without thought.

My age has nothing to do with what I know or have done.

If anything my playing of the devils advocate should hopefully help teach people a few things. Like - just cause you're older and have a job based more around people doesn't mean you don't jump to baseless conclusions. Just cause I'm young doesn't mean I'm wrong or haven't done anything to help educate people.

Or that I don't think before I speak. I think a lot about what I say, a considerable amount. I write a lot more then I post, and I read what I write a few times before I post it to make sure it's saying what I want it to say.

Open yourself to the possibility that you are not the only person - or only age bracket - that has a brain. Simply because we disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong, or that I'm somehow not thinking.

_____________________________

"The feeling of freedom, and freedom denied."

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 28

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/23/2013 9:08:03 PM

theshytype

Posts: 1600
Status: offline

The woman in this article is a moron, no doubt. They both should have been clearer regarding their limits. However, this was their first time involving pain. He should have been more responsible.
Sure you have friends that enjoy screaming and crying, but I'm assuming they're not new to it. The difference between them and the couple in this case is that your friends know each other and their respective limits, assuming again.
I'd compare this couple to sending a person who doesn't know how to swim off to surf the big waves. It's not going to end well.

As far as the book goes. All I know is that stupid people do stupid things. They'll get their next fucktastic idea somewhere else.
Maybe the government will start requiring warning labels "do not try this at home" on the book.

(in reply to Jaquin)

Post #: 29

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/24/2013 3:27:20 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

The only people I "educate" are my child and Master if he asked it of me. Other than that, the rest of the world is not my concern. The way I see it, it's common friggin sense and if you don't have any, that's less chlorine that needs to be poured in the pool.

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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Post #: 30

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/24/2013 6:29:01 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Obviously she never even bothered to check him out and find out he has two other assault arrests. While I guess you could say 50 Shades is helping because of this story, but to me this story proves just the opposite. It puts romantic notions in people's heads and they park their brains outside the door instead of doing their homework. Personally, I think the book makes people stupid.

Yeah, that's my concern, I'd hate to see it turn into a defense for every psycho who likes to beat women. There's obviously some grey area, but if she files a complaint, Id say you didn't do something right.

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Walking nightmare...

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 31

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/24/2013 6:30:08 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

Bu the book didn't make these people stupid, they were already there.

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Post #: 32

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/24/2013 11:02:23 PM

AthenaSurrenders

Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline

fast reply

My work background is in domestic violence and every week I had to spend at least one day in court. I saw a lot of assault cases. In our medium sized town there were probably 15-20 domestic violence assault cases in court each week. It's unusual for anything short of a murder to make the press so you don't often hear of them. It is also worth noting that the average number of assaults that take place before the victim even calls the police is somewhere around 19.

While I understand that having been convicted before is not proof you've committed this crime, it is what they call 'evidence of bad character'. It demonstrates you have a pattern of behaving a certain way. It is deemed relevant by the courts.

In very general terms, people who get assault convictions from bar fights or other non-dv assaults tend to commit those crimes against men, not women. To have three convictions for assault on WOMEN, does suggest a pattern of behaviour. Personally NONE of the cases I have ever seen in those courts have had even the lightest sniff of BDSM. It is not a common scenario. It would be extremely surprising to me that someone had a consensual BDSM session end in criminal allegations four times.

What really is interesting to me about this case is that it's the first time I've seen 'she consented' as a defense for a physical assault - a successful defense no less. Consent is usually the aspect which causes so much trouble in a rape case, since it's relatively easy to prove they had sex and nearly impossible to prove what conversations took place between them. Assaults are generally more straightforward as the defenses tend to be 'nothing happened', 'I wasn't there' or 'it was an accident'. It will be interesting to see if this potentially changes the way some cases are argued.

A decision like this could also potentially have an impact in the opposite way . The police in the UK have a certain obligation to arrest and investigate a suspected domestic abuser even without the cooperation of the victim. If this court is saying that you can, in fact, consent to an assault, surely this will have an impact on the way they work.

There are some interesting things raised by this case, whether or not you think he should have been convicted. The fifty shades crap is just a headline grabber which sadly masks the actual news underneath.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 33

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/25/2013 2:14:42 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

The only thing that saved him was the physical contract and her emails to him. Those are why they were able to prove consent on this case. Otherwise if it has just been a he said, she said deal then I doubt he would have won.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

Post #: 34

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 1:12:11 AM

Alecta

Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline

I beg to differ. The attitude of the court as stated there is not revolutionary. It has been that way since the 80s. UK courts recognizes the power of consent and alternative lifestyle preferences. Nothing to do with that drivel called 50shades.

(in reply to susie)

Post #: 35

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 2:08:26 AM

leonine

Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaquin
Now yes he could be lying through his teeth and he could be a bit "to mean" but he says he didn't want to make her cry and that she had a safeword she didn't use. That to me sounds like decent normal bdsm play - and it was her doing that caused her to go outside her comfort zone and then cry wolf because of it.

I came close to this. I ran a kidnapping role-play with a femsub from my local munch, and afterwards she complained I'd gone over her limits: she didn't safeword because she'd got so caught up in the role-play that she forgot she could.

Happily she had more sense than to go to the law, but if she'd been a bit less stable... well, I hope I'd have had the sense not to play with her (to borrow a vanilla aphorism, don't whip crazy,) but it could have turned nasty.

In BDSM as in vanilla sex, things can get dangerous in the jungles on the edge of consensual.

_____________________________

Leo9

Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to Jaquin)

Post #: 36

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 3:19:29 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Obviously she never even bothered to check him out and find out he has two other assault arrests.

I don't think you can actually do that.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 37

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 3:42:35 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
I'm actually very interested in peoples opinions
on that article.

As I see it, the jury has to decide whether he intentionally harmed her. I see little doubt that he did, with 3 previous convictions of assault, with him leaving her afterwards to go to the computer though she was crying. At the very least, he did not give a damn whether he did or not.
In addition, the fact that she immediately texted a girlfriend to call for help does, I think,
rule out an honest mistake and any vengeance motive on her part.

What the verdict says is: if you say sub, you have to take what comes, regardless, there are no limits except, perhaps, death.

Would they have given the same verdict if she had had a shoulder dislocated, or a leg broken? Both of such injuries - and others - can happen during play, but the Dom(me) would instantly have reacted and the sub would have seen it as the accident it is.

Mind you, I can see the problem with people taking a scene gone wrong to court, just as there are people who call 'rape' unjustly. But in this case it seems so clear.

< Message edited by egern -- 1/26/2013 3:43:28 AM >

(in reply to ARIES83)

Post #: 38

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 3:46:55 AM

leonine

Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The only people I "educate" are my child and Master if he asked it of me. Other than that, the rest of the world is not my concern. The way I see it, it's common friggin sense and if you don't have any, that's less chlorine that needs to be poured in the pool.

As this case surely shows, the outside world can and does impinge on our lives, whether we like it or not.

In the US and several other coutries there are "outreach" groups, usually run by BDSM clubs, who organise lectures and seminars to educate law enforcement and other officials about the reality of BDSM. If there had been a program like that in the UK back in the day, my family might have been saved a lot of trouble.

On the other hand, I do accept that you can't teach people who don't want to be taught. Things like the Bottoming Book and Screw The Roses are out there on Amazon, and probably show up on the same kind of search that would find you 50 Shades. But some people would rather take fantasies for reality than read boring facts.

_____________________________

Leo9

Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 39

RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 3:46:58 AM

egern

Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I'm not a big 50 Shades fan, but apparently they didn't read it very closely.....can we say SAFE WORD???

Apparently, they had one, but she did not use it. The problem with a safeword is that you are not always in a state to be able to use it - I have experienced this myself, both as a Domme and as a sub. You must also rely on your judgement.

(in reply to cordeliasub)

Post #: 40

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