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RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 4:03:08 AM   
leonine


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Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Obviously she never even bothered to check him out and find out he has two other assault arrests.


I don't think you can actually do that.


You can only check someone's criminal record if they are applying for a job in one of a limited range of areas such as education and nursing care.

It occured to me that, since he was actually convicted, there might be news items that would show up on a Google search, but nothing comes up. So even if she were both smart and suspicious enough to check, there's no way she could have found out.

It's possible that someone online might have known, but would you go on a forum like this and say "I'm considering subbing to X, do you know if he has a criminal record?" And would you trust the answer if you got one?

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 4:12:04 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaquin


"I'm not sure about him. Yes it says he has former assault charges but perhaps those are from previous bdsm relationships where the woman has suddenly been disillusioned of the romantic notion that stories gave her. Exactly like this article."


You could think that, or you could say - hey, this man is really unfortunate - 3 people complaining about him!

Honestly, can 3 times still be a coincidence?


quote:

"If he had been convicted it would be another mark against him, and all because she wasn't ready for the real world of s/m or bdsm in general. "


It was convictions, actually, and I do not follow your logic here: What does his 3 convictions have to do with whether or not she is ready for bdsm in general??

Which, I personally think, she may not have been, but on the other hand, if her story is true, someone went way over her limits in a brutal way on her very first time. I have experienced that myself, in my very first encounter with bdsm, and to be sure I was green and unprepared and did not know of any precautions to be taken. I was really stupid, no doubt about that. But that does not excuse the way my first partner behaved, does it?


quote:

"Now yes he could be lying through his teeth and he could be a bit "to mean" but he says he didn't want to make her cry"


Sorry to keep up chopping up your text, but there seems to me to be several issues here, so it is easier for me.

He said that, but tell me, if you had a crying and terrified sub in front of you, would you lave her chained on the floor go off and doing stuff on your computer?

I say terrified because the texed her friend and called for help


quote:

" and that she had a safeword she didn't use."


Correct, but my argument here is that you cannot always use it, and a Dom must not depend on that entirely. In the incident I talked about above, had I had a safe word I do not think I would have the presence of mind to use it - I was too busy screaming.

quote:


" That to me sounds like decent normal bdsm play - and it was her doing that caused her to go outside her comfort zone and then cry wolf because of it."


I do not understand what you mean about it was her doing to go outside her comfort zone?

quote:

"The article shows both good and bad thanks to 50 shades. Bad because this woman is clearly deluded about the lifestyle."


I cannot see where that is shown. Would you say wham wham whip till your sub screams, then fuck fuck on the first bdsm encounter is a sensible way to go about it?

quote:

" But good because this man, who from what I can gather was practicing consensual and safe bdsm, got exonerated thanks to a juries greater awareness of bdsm - thanks to 50 shades popularity."


Hm, interesting point. Consensual and safe bdsm do not usually lead to court cases?

But I agree that the book - boring though it sounds - can help with greater awareness of bdsm by starting discussions.



< Message edited by egern -- 1/26/2013 4:16:59 AM >

(in reply to Jaquin)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 4:35:08 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaquin
quote:


ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I can honestly and with 100% certainty say that if his two other assault charges were also by women he was in BDSM relationships with, it is him, not them.  I can see there being confusion once, but three times?  Not a chance. 


Granted the odds are not in his favor and perhaps he is just abusive - but what we have is a window into a larger picture and it is hardly enough to go passing judgements on without even consideration for all possibilities. Having dealt with many, many, people (comes with being a cashier) I can assure you based purely on my own personal experiences that there are cases in which someone is accused of something many more then just three times and it's still false.


I do not understand. He has 3 convictions, and she is on her first bdsm session, and you think the bigger picture is in his favor?

quote:

"Rumors propagate, they spread and fill in gaps; just as you're doing now - you feel it's a forgone conclusion. Well perhaps the first was just "Oh well we don't know but we'll assume it was abuse." and the second time was "Oh well he's abused before so it must be abuse." and it's now turned into "No chance it's not abuse.""


I still do not understand. 3 convictions is not exactly a 'rumor'.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If he didn't mean "to make her cry," he would have stopped when she started crying. 

quote:

And who says he didn't? Where in the article does it explicitly say that he continued to flog/whip/smack her when she started crying?


If you Google this you can find other details in other reports. He fucked her after the whipping, still crying. He went away after the fucking, leaving her chained up and crying. This is not denied by the defense.


quote:

"She's a moron plain and simple. Nobody in their right mind puts themselves into a position like that without knowing how far it will go. She got what she asked for, what she agreed to. Simply because she didn't understand what she was signing doesn't mean that she should get some kind of sympathy.


It is hard to see if she is a moron, or simply too trusting. When you have your first encounter, that is the leap of faith. It is extremely hard to know how far it will go without a crystal ball, you simply trust your Dom.

I think it is just a bit hard to say that you deserve it, if you make a mistake.

quote:

Why should the courts have to waste time dealing with someone who went into a situation willingly simply because she failed to educate herself on what it truly means. She knew there would be pain, it's her own damn fault for not setting up how much.


So, if she had set up - however you do that - just exactly how much pain she would have been topping from the bottom, not being a slave at all?


How can you know that bdsm 'truly means', seeing not two people agree on that? Where is the manual to this?

More general knowledge and education all around, that is the thing.


< Message edited by egern -- 1/26/2013 4:49:57 AM >

(in reply to Jaquin)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 4:37:43 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
Sorry, mistake. Not quite used to this forum yet.

< Message edited by egern -- 1/26/2013 4:39:58 AM >

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 5:45:41 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaquin
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
You do understand that "no" and "stop" mean "no" and "stop," right?


And yet I've met people who say such things and would be pissed if they were heeded. It's part of the game to them. I know people who scream and cry and beg - because that's what makes it for them. And they're some of the safest and nicest people I've met in the community.

Never once have I seen them go to far or heard any story about it, but yet every time they play she ends up in tears. And afterwards she's the happiest girl alive. Because being hurt till she cries and begs is exactly what she wants.

Are you gona say they can't play like that because it's not SSC/RACK compliant? Good luck, they'll laugh in your face and go back to playing and having fun their way.

As your description makes clear, they are a long time couple, and that makes all the difference. They know each other's needs and limits.

My LTR subs haven't had a safeword, because they wanted to know they were totally helpless and only I controled the scene. (In intense scenes my ex-slave used to scream every safeword she knew, and swear she'd go to the police if I didn't stop RIGHT NOW. She'd have been furious if I had stopped.) But when I first met them and we started to learn each other, then I bloody well did set up safewords and respect them religiously, because I didn't have that experience to rely on, and I wasn't so crazy as to think I could read a stranger's feelings and thoughts.

quote:


See that's why we made safewords, as a way to stop play in a way that we wouldn't normally say. The joke, even among those of us who don't care for s/m is that "Ouch" is not a safeword. Your safeword is a safeword, the article says she didn't use it yes? Then anything else could really be considered as "in character" and is hardly usable as some kind of argument.
As I've noted, people can forget safewords, or just be screaming too hard to speak. Or, perhaps, be so frightened of someone who seems to have gone berserk, that safewords seem useless.

I think that getting out her phone and calling for help could be reasonably interpreted as withdrawing consent.
quote:

Despite that all we have is her word that he did something she didn't approve of..

What makes her word so much more trust worthy then his?
The defence agreed with every detail of what happened, only the issue of consent was in dispute.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
We do agree, she was a moron. However, she had been with this guy for a while, and he perhaps did not show his true colors to her. In either case, their agreement was poorly negotiated and left gaping holes as to what each expected to happen in this particular situation.


Says who? Did you read their contract?

She says that she knew pain would be used as punishment. Can you even conceive of the fact that perhaps she's the one lying or twisting things?
Lying about what, the terms of the contract? Again, this was not disputed in court.

The wording of the contract makes it perfectly clear, IMO, that she believed she was going into a D/s situation with the possibility of CP for disobedience. What she found was an SM situation where he expected to go straight into beating her hard, with no role-play buildup, no warmup and no aftercare. Considered purely as a Dom, he's an insensitive fool at best. If he'd done the same scene in a more understanding way, getting her into role as a slave, playing Mr. Grey saying "I'm going to have to punish you now," maybe spanked her a bit before getting out the rope, and dried her tears and hugged her afterwards, they might still be together. All of which, incidentally, he could have got from the book, so maybe the problem is that they didn't follow it enough.


_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/26/2013 6:53:47 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
I'm not a big 50 Shades fan, but apparently they didn't read it very closely.....can we say SAFE WORD???

According to the article she had one and didn't use it.

P.S. I'm betting she's not real happy about having property of Steven Lock tattooed on her body right now.

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/27/2013 1:27:27 AM   
ClassAct2006


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		It's hard to know without all the facts. If she had a safe word and did not use it that's rather tricky for him. I've usually had one and never had to use it and even so my boyfriend stopped because I think part of the process when you are in a relationship with someone is to check whether she has had enough even if she is not using a safe word.

The jury presumably did not know he had past convictions when they let him off but we don't know what those were - hitting a friend in a bar when he was 16? or on a regular basis he goes too far in BDSM sessions so badly that women take him to the police?

Do we know what the damage was to her?

I don't think the 50 shades book is too relevant except it seems to have given them ideas. Was it even published when the offences took place?

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/27/2013 7:40:55 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassAct2006

It's hard to know without all the facts. If she had a safe word and did not use it that's rather tricky for him. I've usually had one and never had to use it and even so my boyfriend stopped because I think part of the process when you are in a relationship with someone is to check whether she has had enough even if she is not using a safe word.
And even more so when you aren't in a relationship, and you don't know hir reactions. Safewords are like condoms: it's smart to use them, but also to remember they're not infalible.

I was playing with a guy for the first time and I accidentally hit him way too hard. (I have a favourite rubber flogger which I thought was such pure sting it could never do real harm. I discovered that if I swing it too hard, the lashes bunch together and it bruises like a cosh.) He didn't safeword, but I grokked he'd crashed out of subspace into OHSHIT THAT HURTS! So I asked him, and he was glad to admit he needed some time out. If I'd just ploughed on he'd have toughed it out, but he wouldn't have liked it and he wouldn't have come back.
quote:



The jury presumably did not know he had past convictions when they let him off but we don't know what those were - hitting a friend in a bar when he was 16? or on a regular basis he goes too far in BDSM sessions so badly that women take him to the police?
They were explicitly for "violence against women." Whether they were in BDSM situations isn't recorded, but it shows a worrying pattern.
quote:


Do we know what the damage was to her?
She had bruises to her back from a rope used as a whip, and on her neck from a rope he twisted round it. That last is the most scary; neck ropes are something you only use carefully with someone whose reactions you know. To do otherwise is either stupid or psycho.
quote:


I don't think the 50 shades book is too relevant except it seems to have given them ideas. Was it even published when the offences took place?

A good point and one I missed: I think the answer may well be No. It was only raised in court as a way for the defence to argue that BDSM isn't weird or scary per se.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to ClassAct2006)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/27/2013 7:47:35 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
I'm not a big 50 Shades fan, but apparently they didn't read it very closely.....can we say SAFE WORD???

P.S. I'm betting she's not real happy about having property of Steven Lock tattooed on her body right now.
Getting a slave tattoo for someone you've never subbed to IRL is a glaring sign of a fantasist. These two were both of them disasters waiting to happen. It's a mercy they only ended up in court, not in hospital.


< Message edited by leonine -- 1/27/2013 7:48:23 AM >

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/27/2013 12:43:40 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

You can only check someone's criminal record if they are applying for a job in one of a limited range of areas such as education and nursing care.


You can check anyone's criminal record anytime you want to. Go to a local police department and pay the fee or you can go online to any number of websites who you pay to do it for you.

I've done it numerous times.





_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/27/2013 3:07:14 PM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

You can only check someone's criminal record if they are applying for a job in one of a limited range of areas such as education and nursing care.


You can check anyone's criminal record anytime you want to. Go to a local police department and pay the fee or you can go online to any number of websites who you pay to do it for you.

I've done it numerous times.





In the UK it does not work that way. There are strict rules on who can apply for that information.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/30/2013 4:52:55 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		The thing I find disheartening about the books is that now people who have read them are using them as a manual on BDSM when it is entirely a work of fiction (and a bad piece of fiction at that).

As for these two people, stupid is as stupid does.

I cannot overemphasize enough to anyone who is reading this thread and is new to the BDSM world, please do NOT confuse fiction with reality. If you want to read manuals on BDSM, many great ones exist, and are a great starting point to learning. To treat things like the Story of O, The Beauty Series and Fifty Shades as how-to manuals is beyond stupid. While they might pique one's interest in this world, I would not treat reading any or all of these books as any kind of true learning about BDSM. Just as I wouldn't treat a few hours of watching BDSM porn as education either.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Perhaps 50 Shades has done some good - 1/30/2013 6:10:32 PM   
nighthawk3569


Posts: 283
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

The thing I find disheartening about the books is that now people who have read them are using them as a manual on BDSM when it is entirely a work of fiction (and a bad piece of fiction at that).

As for these two people, stupid is as stupid does.

I cannot overemphasize enough to anyone who is reading this thread and is new to the BDSM world, please do NOT confuse fiction with reality. If you want to read manuals on BDSM, many great ones exist, and are a great starting point to learning. To treat things like the Story of O, The Beauty Series and Fifty Shades as how-to manuals is beyond stupid. While they might pique one's interest in this world, I would not treat reading any or all of these books as any kind of true learning about BDSM. Just as I wouldn't treat a few hours of watching BDSM porn as education either.


Sounds much like another 'bad work of fiction' that some use as a 'true guideline'.

'hawk


_____________________________

"If the government is big enough to give you everything you want...then it's big enough to take away everything you have!"

Thomas Jefferson




(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 53
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