RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen?

RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (Full Version)

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Nosathro -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/3/2013 10:29:02 PM)
I think we have gotten a little away from the topic at hand due to "gun therapy". I have done some reasearch on Bruce N. Eimer Ph.D. Yes he is a licensed therapist and has been in practice for some 20 years. The gun therapy perhaps the word therapy is not the correct word for it, it is more training in firearms use and safety, he is licensed to teach such, however, it appear not to have any medical treatment value. Here is a link to what Eimer uses to treat PTSD http://www.hypnosishelpcenter.net/counseling.htm Motive and what happen is still not clear, it does appear that Kyle did take Routh to the range and Routh is reported to have PTSD. However it is not clear to me, why Kyle took Routh, nor did Kyle have any training in counseling or medical/psychological training.

punisher440 -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/3/2013 11:13:30 PM)
quote: I’ve been wondering about the mental condition of someone who coolly killed 160 people. Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way,they saw themselves as protecting their buddies by taking out the enemy.Quoting Carlos, "I like shooting, and I love hunting. But I never did enjoy killing anybody. It's my job. If I don't get those bastards, then they're gonna kill a lot of these kids dressed up like Marines. That's the way I look at it." Try reading in "Marine Sniper" by Charles Henderson about the North Vietnamese woman they called the Apache that Carlos took out,but you better have a strong stomach because of the torturing she did to American servicemen.Carlos was so good the North Vietnamese had a $30,000 bounty on him.Chris Kyle was cut from the same cloth and served his country well and deserves to be honored and respected.

Nosathro -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 12:19:08 AM)
It appears the Chris Kyle with the best of good intentions, attempted to try treat Routh who appears to have PTSD with a "shooting therapy". Chris Kyle also appears to have no training in counseling, medicine or psychology. Nor does it appear Chris was working with a Doctor or Clinic. From a medical point, Chris Kyle training as a SEAL, sniper and firearms would have been of no help in treating a PTSD patient. It appears Chris Kyle got involved in something he knew little about and got over his head. This is not to be disrespectful to Chris Kyle, he tried to help, in the way he knew how, he efforts should be commended. http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-war-vet-charged-fatal-shooting-ex-seal-003052628.html

dcnovice -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 4:10:46 AM)
FR May he rest in peace and light perpetual shine upon him. [image]http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consumerprotection/Images/shopping/funeral_wreath.jpg[/image]

kdsub -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 9:51:40 AM)
quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch

Politesub53 -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 11:32:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: punisher440 quote: I’ve been wondering about the mental condition of someone who coolly killed 160 people. Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way,they saw themselves as protecting their buddies by taking out the enemy.Quoting Carlos, "I like shooting, and I love hunting. But I never did enjoy killing anybody. It's my job. If I don't get those bastards, then they're gonna kill a lot of these kids dressed up like Marines. That's the way I look at it." Try reading in "Marine Sniper" by Charles Henderson about the North Vietnamese woman they called the Apache that Carlos took out,but you better have a strong stomach because of the torturing she did to American servicemen.Carlos was so good the North Vietnamese had a $30,000 bounty on him.Chris Kyle was cut from the same cloth and served his country well and deserves to be honored and respected. Nice post that just about sums up the vast majority of soldiers.... guys just doing a job. I have less time for the Politicians that send them in harms way and then fail to give them the back up, medical and otherwise, when discharged from an honourable job.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 11:32:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch A lot of "reprogramming" goes on in the military to help the men and women get through some of this stuff. There is quite a necessity for adaptation back into civilian life that can hinder many. Chris Kyle may have taken the profits from his book and set himself up comfortably, and then the rest towards helping his fellow warriors. Plus, as was mentioned before, when you have to make a choice between killing someone or that someone killing your friend/cohort/colleague/etc., what is it you're going to do? I think police officers that discharge their weapon and wound/kill someone have to have some sort of mental health therapy to help them cope. They are not as well trained as the military. I'm sure therapy of some sort is standard for the military men and women, even if it's just a simple chat with your superior.

Politesub53 -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 11:35:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch Butch, is this any less alien than a Politician sending soldiers to war, or a General leading them, then making money from a biography ? I dont feel it is and at least the soldier is making a few £/$ rather than surviving on the scraps thrown to them by our collective governments.

Nosathro -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 12:28:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch A lot of "reprogramming" goes on in the military to help the men and women get through some of this stuff. There is quite a necessity for adaptation back into civilian life that can hinder many. Chris Kyle may have taken the profits from his book and set himself up comfortably, and then the rest towards helping his fellow warriors. Plus, as was mentioned before, when you have to make a choice between killing someone or that someone killing your friend/cohort/colleague/etc., what is it you're going to do? I think police officers that discharge their weapon and wound/kill someone have to have some sort of mental health therapy to help them cope. They are not as well trained as the military. I'm sure therapy of some sort is standard for the military men and women, even if it's just a simple chat with your superior. I am not sure what you mean by "reprogramming" I was discharge from the Army, back in 1981 at Fort Dix, arrived one day, turned in my clothing, listen to a few speeches on the good job we did, what we may expect once we leave the army, an attempt to have us sign up for reseves or reenlist, all and all about 4 hours. The next day I woke up, had breakfast, signed my discharge papers and left, I was out before 9am. I do realize that now there are some programs like the Wounded Warrior, but I have little knowledge of them. Yes there is in many Law Enforcement agencies requirement about seeing doctors after a shooting. I have always been preplexed as the preciption that law enforcement training some how is equal to military training...both are completly different, in scope, goals, requirements.....

kdsub -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 12:32:41 PM)
Yea tell it to us Vietnam vets...we sure got a lot of help reprogramming. I'll say once again... I do not know the man or his motivation...and I'll bet you and others here do not either... I am not criticizing him at all and helping his fellow vets is commendable. I have only been giving a personal opinion that I find him hard to understand. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 12:36:00 PM)
quote: Butch, is this any less alien than a Politician sending soldiers to war, or a General leading them, then making money from a biography ? No less...truly great men are written about...they do not do their own writing unless they are trying to explain their actions not document them. Butch

DesideriScuri -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 1:22:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch A lot of "reprogramming" goes on in the military to help the men and women get through some of this stuff. There is quite a necessity for adaptation back into civilian life that can hinder many. Chris Kyle may have taken the profits from his book and set himself up comfortably, and then the rest towards helping his fellow warriors. Plus, as was mentioned before, when you have to make a choice between killing someone or that someone killing your friend/cohort/colleague/etc., what is it you're going to do? I think police officers that discharge their weapon and wound/kill someone have to have some sort of mental health therapy to help them cope. They are not as well trained as the military. I'm sure therapy of some sort is standard for the military men and women, even if it's just a simple chat with your superior. I am not sure what you mean by "reprogramming" I was discharge from the Army, back in 1981 at Fort Dix, arrived one day, turned in my clothing, listen to a few speeches on the good job we did, what we may expect once we leave the army, an attempt to have us sign up for reseves or reenlist, all and all about 4 hours. The next day I woke up, had breakfast, signed my discharge papers and left, I was out before 9am. I do realize that now there are some programs like the Wounded Warrior, but I have little knowledge of them. Yes there is in many Law Enforcement agencies requirement about seeing doctors after a shooting. I have always been preplexed as the preciption that law enforcement training some how is equal to military training...both are completly different, in scope, goals, requirements..... The re-programming occurs in the beginning, at boot camp. It turns us ordinary schlubs into the best military in the world. Or, are you going to tell me that there is no mental/physical break down involved in training to make each one of you more alike? The only way the police are similar to the military is that there is uniformity of training to get a type of person out, and the use of firearms is trained. Yes, they are vastly different, but they do share some commonalities, and a LEO killing a person isn't much different from a Marine killing a person, at the most basic level. Both ended a human life. Both have to deal with that. I don't think LEO's are as well-trained in dealing with that as the Military. What is acceptable on the war front isn't always acceptable from a LEO, and certainly nowhere near acceptable for John/Jane Q. Public.

Nosathro -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 3:24:11 PM)
Schlubs? Law Enforcement is governed by laws and court rulings. Most officers are trained on a side arm and shot gun, there are special weapons but for only special units such as SWAT team. Another device the stun gun is also part of most training programs. Part of the training in Law Enforcement is not taking human life. Not only do Police have psychological assistance when a shooting occurs but it some departments it is a pre employment requirement. There are review boards to insure that all laws were complied with. I think you been watching too many TV shows.

Politesub53 -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 3:44:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Butch, is this any less alien than a Politician sending soldiers to war, or a General leading them, then making money from a biography ? No less...truly great men are written about...they do not do their own writing unless they are trying to explain their actions not document them. Butch Not in the modern era.......... It seems politicians, generals and uncle Tom Cobley seem to wish to write a book the second they leave office. Normally its a case of the more sensationalism or sleaze the better. Often done by a trusted author as an "Auto-Biography"

EsotericLady -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 3:44:53 PM)
I believe kdsub was using the word "reprogramming" to express the change between living life in a war zone and being back home, Desider. : ) quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch A lot of "reprogramming" goes on in the military to help the men and women get through some of this stuff. There is quite a necessity for adaptation back into civilian life that can hinder many. Chris Kyle may have taken the profits from his book and set himself up comfortably, and then the rest towards helping his fellow warriors. Plus, as was mentioned before, when you have to make a choice between killing someone or that someone killing your friend/cohort/colleague/etc., what is it you're going to do? I think police officers that discharge their weapon and wound/kill someone have to have some sort of mental health therapy to help them cope. They are not as well trained as the military. I'm sure therapy of some sort is standard for the military men and women, even if it's just a simple chat with your superior. I am not sure what you mean by "reprogramming" I was discharge from the Army, back in 1981 at Fort Dix, arrived one day, turned in my clothing, listen to a few speeches on the good job we did, what we may expect once we leave the army, an attempt to have us sign up for reseves or reenlist, all and all about 4 hours. The next day I woke up, had breakfast, signed my discharge papers and left, I was out before 9am. I do realize that now there are some programs like the Wounded Warrior, but I have little knowledge of them. Yes there is in many Law Enforcement agencies requirement about seeing doctors after a shooting. I have always been preplexed as the preciption that law enforcement training some how is equal to military training...both are completly different, in scope, goals, requirements..... The re-programming occurs in the beginning, at boot camp. It turns us ordinary schlubs into the best military in the world. Or, are you going to tell me that there is no mental/physical break down involved in training to make each one of you more alike? The only way the police are similar to the military is that there is uniformity of training to get a type of person out, and the use of firearms is trained. Yes, they are vastly different, but they do share some commonalities, and a LEO killing a person isn't much different from a Marine killing a person, at the most basic level. Both ended a human life. Both have to deal with that. I don't think LEO's are as well-trained in dealing with that as the Military. What is acceptable on the war front isn't always acceptable from a LEO, and certainly nowhere near acceptable for John/Jane Q. Public.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 5:15:34 PM)
So in a place surrounded by guns, and where the victim was probably armed with a gun, and where everyone was trained in gun use, NO ONE was able to defend him against the perpetrator. Not one single person. Someone explain to me again how having access to guns helps us defend ourselves if we are attacked by a maniac? Every day over 200 people are shot in the U.S. Every day over 80 of those people die. This man is simply another statistic and his death is no sadder or less sad than that of the other 80 people who died the same day that he did. 80 families lost a loved one on the day he died. His death just happened to make the news. What is happening in this country is nothing short of tragic. And this man is only one very small example.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 5:32:04 PM)
Kyle, Littlefield and Routh were three such visitors, arriving together around 3:15 p.m. (4:15 p.m. ET) Saturday and proceeding to a shooting range within the resort's 11,000 acres, Bryant told reporters Sunday. The range is in a "very remote part" of the sprawling complex, Upshaw explained. "So there wasn't anybody anywhere close to that," he said, explaining there are no known witnesses. http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/03/justice/texas-sniper-killed/ Hmmm... surrounded by trained people with weapons, or alone in 11,000 acres. What to believe, what to believe? Ohh and... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_solution_fallacy#Perfect_solution_fallacy quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess So in a place surrounded by guns, and where the victim was probably armed with a gun, and where everyone was trained in gun use, NO ONE was able to defend him against the perpetrator. Not one single person. Someone explain to me again how having access to guns helps us defend ourselves if we are attacked by a maniac? Every day over 200 people are shot in the U.S. Every day over 80 of those people die. This man is simply another statistic and his death is no sadder or less sad than that of the other 80 people who died the same day that he did. 80 families lost a loved one on the day he died. His death just happened to make the news. What is happening in this country is nothing short of tragic. And this man is only one very small example.

OsideGirl -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 5:56:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro I do wonder if this has anything to do with the lawsuit against Jesse Ventura, another SEAL? More accurately, Jesse Ventura has a lawsuit pending against Chris Kyle because Chris Kyle told a story about punching Jesse Ventura while at an Irish wake for a Seal killed in duty at McP's Pub, here in San Diego. He said that Jesse made derogatory comments about our military presence in the middle east in front of that Seal's family.

PeonForHer -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 5:59:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 It simply looks like more seizing on a tragedy to score political points. You know my opinion is that I think those points need to be scored because things only change through politics. But this goes beyond a gun control debate. 'In 2012, for the first time in at least a generation, the number of active-duty soldiers who killed themselves, 177, exceeded the 176 who were killed while in the war zone. To put that another way, more of America's serving soldiers died at their own hands than in pursuit of the enemy.' (The Guardian.) Some ten percent of ex-military people are on the street (here in the UK.) I don't have the figures for the USA. I also don't have the figures of those ex-military people who are suffering from depression and other psychological problems. I think, though, that it's a safe bet that there was something badly wrong in the life, and/or the mind, of the man who shot Kyle. I'm beginning to think that humans just aren't made for fighting wars. There doesn't seem to be a way of keeping their minds safe, even if their bodies can come through unscathed. I'm damned if I know what to do about that, though.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this have to happen? (2/4/2013 7:10:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EsotericLady I believe kdsub was using the word "reprogramming" to express the change between living life in a war zone and being back home, Desider. : ) quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Kdsub,I can not speak for every person that has been a sniper,but from reading Chris Kyle's book "American Sniper" and several books on Carlos Hathcock that they saw what they did as saving other Americans lives.They did not appear to be blood thirsty or off in any way I never intended to imply that Kyle was blood thirsty...only that he may have been dealing with issues in his past that may have been related to his death. He would not be the first war hero to profit from his war record and at the same time suffer from the mental strain of his past actions in the horror of war. I personally find it hard to imagine killing 160 people then making a profit over the story of how I did it. Not a criticism but looking at a man like that is like looking at an alien from outer space…beyond my understanding….as if that is important. Butch A lot of "reprogramming" goes on in the military to help the men and women get through some of this stuff. There is quite a necessity for adaptation back into civilian life that can hinder many. Chris Kyle may have taken the profits from his book and set himself up comfortably, and then the rest towards helping his fellow warriors. Plus, as was mentioned before, when you have to make a choice between killing someone or that someone killing your friend/cohort/colleague/etc., what is it you're going to do? I think police officers that discharge their weapon and wound/kill someone have to have some sort of mental health therapy to help them cope. They are not as well trained as the military. I'm sure therapy of some sort is standard for the military men and women, even if it's just a simple chat with your superior. I am not sure what you mean by "reprogramming" I was discharge from the Army, back in 1981 at Fort Dix, arrived one day, turned in my clothing, listen to a few speeches on the good job we did, what we may expect once we leave the army, an attempt to have us sign up for reseves or reenlist, all and all about 4 hours. The next day I woke up, had breakfast, signed my discharge papers and left, I was out before 9am. I do realize that now there are some programs like the Wounded Warrior, but I have little knowledge of them. Yes there is in many Law Enforcement agencies requirement about seeing doctors after a shooting. I have always been preplexed as the preciption that law enforcement training some how is equal to military training...both are completly different, in scope, goals, requirements..... The re-programming occurs in the beginning, at boot camp. It turns us ordinary schlubs into the best military in the world. Or, are you going to tell me that there is no mental/physical break down involved in training to make each one of you more alike? The only way the police are similar to the military is that there is uniformity of training to get a type of person out, and the use of firearms is trained. Yes, they are vastly different, but they do share some commonalities, and a LEO killing a person isn't much different from a Marine killing a person, at the most basic level. Both ended a human life. Both have to deal with that. I don't think LEO's are as well-trained in dealing with that as the Military. What is acceptable on the war front isn't always acceptable from a LEO, and certainly nowhere near acceptable for John/Jane Q. Public. Yes, he was. However, when I first used it, I was referring to that done at the beginning of training. Part of the training is to be less human, and more of a soldier. Different types of thinking.

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