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RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/4/2013 8:35:46 PM   
EsotericLady


Posts: 713
Joined: 1/2/2013
Status: offline 		Yes, I'm well aware of what happens during bootcamp brainwashing...
(Thank you)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady
I believe kdsub was using the word "reprogramming" to express the change between living life in a war zone and being back home, Desider. : )


The re-programming occurs in the beginning, at boot camp. It turns us ordinary schlubs into the best military in the world. Or, are you going to tell me that there is no mental/physical break down involved in training to make each one of you more alike?


Yes, he was. However, when I first used it, I was referring to that done at the beginning of training. Part of the training is to be less human, and more of a soldier. Different types of thinking.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 5:10:52 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady
Yes, I'm well aware of what happens during bootcamp brainwashing...
(Thank you)
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady
I believe kdsub was using the word "reprogramming" to express the change between living life in a war zone and being back home, Desider. : )

The re-programming occurs in the beginning, at boot camp. It turns us ordinary schlubs into the best military in the world. Or, are you going to tell me that there is no mental/physical break down involved in training to make each one of you more alike?

Yes, he was. However, when I first used it, I was referring to that done at the beginning of training. Part of the training is to be less human, and more of a soldier. Different types of thinking.



Why were you bringing up that kdsub was talking about a different reprogramming? I started the reprogramming thing in this thread. He didn't. It should have been obvious that I didn't think he and I were talking the same thing, so I clarified. Then, you respond.

I'm just not sure why. And, I'm not sure of the tone of your latest response (it could vary), so I'm just going to apologize if my response to you offended you in any way. That was not my intention.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to EsotericLady)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 6:19:28 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

So in a place surrounded by guns, and where the victim was probably armed with a gun, and where everyone was trained in gun use, NO ONE was able to defend him against the perpetrator. Not one single person.

Someone explain to me again how having access to guns helps us defend ourselves if we are attacked by a maniac?

Every day over 200 people are shot in the U.S. Every day over 80 of those people die. This man is simply another statistic and his death is no sadder or less sad than that of the other 80 people who died the same day that he did. 80 families lost a loved one on the day he died. His death just happened to make the news.

What is happening in this country is nothing short of tragic. And this man is only one very small example.



You bring up a very good point, there is still a lack of details on what happened. But I too am wondering how it did happen. I am not formular with SEAL training, it does last about a year. I am sure it does include training in dealing with an armed opponent and both men were shot a point blank range....it is curious.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 6:46:09 AM   
Just0Plain0Mike


Posts: 127
Joined: 6/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

So in a place surrounded by guns, and where the victim was probably armed with a gun, and where everyone was trained in gun use, NO ONE was able to defend him against the perpetrator. Not one single person.

Someone explain to me again how having access to guns helps us defend ourselves if we are attacked by a maniac?

Every day over 200 people are shot in the U.S. Every day over 80 of those people die. This man is simply another statistic and his death is no sadder or less sad than that of the other 80 people who died the same day that he did. 80 families lost a loved one on the day he died. His death just happened to make the news.

What is happening in this country is nothing short of tragic. And this man is only one very small example.



Ever hear the term "sucker punch" ? If someone unexpectedly punches you in the face, or draws a gun and begins shooting, it's very hard to react to. There's a brief moment of surprise, hell a much longer moment for someone untrained in violence, where you just can't react. Where your brain is trying to go from calm to danger. In this instance, it seems that the shooter unloaded into his two victims at point blank range, and then left quickly. Had he stayed and tried to shot up the range, I imagine that he'd have been met with a hail of gunfire fairly quickly, once the shock wore off.

I agree that what's happening in this country is tragic. I see it as a tragedy when people exploit the deaths of children and war heroes for political gain.

You tossed out some numbers, 200 shot, 80 dead. Does it say anywhere whether those shot were the victim or the aggressor? Because that makes a huge difference to me.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 6:58:19 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
Ever hear the term "sucker punch" ? If someone unexpectedly punches you in the face, or draws a gun and begins shooting, it's very hard to react to. say anywhere whether those shot were the victim or the aggressor? Because that makes a huge difference to me.
[/quote]

Chris was a trained SEAL, they, as I do believe, are trained react, to as you put it a "sucker punch", he was to great phyical condition as well. I have worked with mentally ill person and we are trained in how to avoid and react to such things as well. This is not to make a political statement, just questions of how this happened.

(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 6:58:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
So in a place surrounded by guns, and where the victim was probably armed with a gun, and where everyone was trained in gun use, NO ONE was able to defend him against the perpetrator. Not one single person.
Someone explain to me again how having access to guns helps us defend ourselves if we are attacked by a maniac?
Every day over 200 people are shot in the U.S. Every day over 80 of those people die. This man is simply another statistic and his death is no sadder or less sad than that of the other 80 people who died the same day that he did. 80 families lost a loved one on the day he died. His death just happened to make the news.
What is happening in this country is nothing short of tragic. And this man is only one very small example.

Ever hear the term "sucker punch" ? If someone unexpectedly punches you in the face, or draws a gun and begins shooting, it's very hard to react to. There's a brief moment of surprise, hell a much longer moment for someone untrained in violence, where you just can't react. Where your brain is trying to go from calm to danger. In this instance, it seems that the shooter unloaded into his two victims at point blank range, and then left quickly. Had he stayed and tried to shot up the range, I imagine that he'd have been met with a hail of gunfire fairly quickly, once the shock wore off.
I agree that what's happening in this country is tragic. I see it as a tragedy when people exploit the deaths of children and war heroes for political gain.
You tossed out some numbers, 200 shot, 80 dead. Does it say anywhere whether those shot were the victim or the aggressor? Because that makes a huge difference to me.


Mike, you might want to relax a little here. You're not likely to get your desired info anyway. And, if you do, it'll be delivered with a twist. To some, we need to reduce the number of gun suicides, but the number of suicides isn't the issue. The issue is that a gun was used. It also doesn't matter how many of those gun deaths/injuries were a result of gang violence, illegal guns, already banned guns, or guns that won't be banned by the latest political knee jerk reaction.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 7:03:40 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Mike, you might want to relax a little here. You're not likely to get your desired info anyway. And, if you do, it'll be delivered with a twist. To some, we need to reduce the number of gun suicides, but the number of suicides isn't the issue. The issue is that a gun was used. It also doesn't matter how many of those gun deaths/injuries were a result of gang violence, illegal guns, already banned guns, or guns that won't be banned by the latest political knee jerk reaction.
[/quote]

Now I see where the politics are in all this.....

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 7:04:50 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
Ever hear the term "sucker punch" ? If someone unexpectedly punches you in the face, or draws a gun and begins shooting, it's very hard to react to. say anywhere whether those shot were the victim or the aggressor? Because that makes a huge difference to me.

Chris was a trained SEAL, they, as I do believe, are trained react, to as you put it a "sucker punch", he was to great phyical condition as well. I have worked with mentally ill person and we are trained in how to avoid and react to such things as well. This is not to make a political statement, just questions of how this happened.


If guns were already out (they were on a firing range), and the shooter was behind the other two, there may not have been any knowledge that a gun was being aimed. I haven't read any account of which way they were shot, other than point-blank. Yes, he was a SEAL, and I don't doubt their training. The shooter, though, was also military, though I'm not sure what branch or anything like that. It's entirely possible, too, that Chris saw the guy draw his gun and was trying to talk him down while approaching in a non-threatening manner, when he got shot. If someone has a gun drawn and isn't within reach, it can be difficult to unarm the man before getting shot.

SEALs are incredible, but there are limits to what a human being can do with the present level of technology.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 7:21:11 AM   
EsotericLady


Posts: 713
Joined: 1/2/2013
Status: offline 		Oh! I'm just fine, Desideri! I'm not upset about anything. So no worries at all! : )

I have a question though.. Is "reprogramming" called "debriefing" when guys come back stateside after serving in wartime? Thanks! : )


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady
Yes, I'm well aware of what happens during bootcamp brainwashing...
(Thank you)
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I'm just not sure why. And, I'm not sure of the tone of your latest response (it could vary), so I'm just going to apologize if my response to you offended you in any way. That was not my intention.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 7:32:13 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
Ever hear the term "sucker punch" ? If someone unexpectedly punches you in the face, or draws a gun and begins shooting, it's very hard to react to. say anywhere whether those shot were the victim or the aggressor? Because that makes a huge difference to me.

Chris was a trained SEAL, they, as I do believe, are trained react, to as you put it a "sucker punch", he was to great phyical condition as well. I have worked with mentally ill person and we are trained in how to avoid and react to such things as well. This is not to make a political statement, just questions of how this happened.


If guns were already out (they were on a firing range), and the shooter was behind the other two, there may not have been any knowledge that a gun was being aimed. I haven't read any account of which way they were shot, other than point-blank. Yes, he was a SEAL, and I don't doubt their training. The shooter, though, was also military, though I'm not sure what branch or anything like that. It's entirely possible, too, that Chris saw the guy draw his gun and was trying to talk him down while approaching in a non-threatening manner, when he got shot. If someone has a gun drawn and isn't within reach, it can be difficult to unarm the man before getting shot.

SEALs are incredible, but there are limits to what a human being can do with the present level of technology.


Eddie Ray Routh, is a marine, there were two victims Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield. There is a report that Routh may have PTSD and had trouble with alcohol, and was hospitalized twice (for what I do not know), also there seem to be trouble with Routh and his family which was the reason Routh mother contacted Chris Kyle. Robbery may have been the motive, Routh did take Chris truck, said to have told his sister he "traded his soul for the truck" and Routh planed to leave the state to avoid capture. The rumors are flying. It is true as I pointed out that Chris Kyle had no training in working with mental illness, let alone substance abuse. He may, although with good intent, got involved in something he should not have, what happen is what I wish to know. I am also having trouble seen how technology is involved....

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 9:10:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady
Oh! I'm just fine, Desideri! I'm not upset about anything. So no worries at all! : )
I have a question though.. Is "reprogramming" called "debriefing" when guys come back stateside after serving in wartime? Thanks! : )
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady
Yes, I'm well aware of what happens during bootcamp brainwashing...
(Thank you)
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm just not sure why. And, I'm not sure of the tone of your latest response (it could vary), so I'm just going to apologize if my response to you offended you in any way. That was not my intention.


Good. Glad everything was as I had hoped.

I think debriefing is more about after-the-fact recon and intel than it is bringing someone back from the warfront to a more civilian setting. I don't know what the protocols are for that, or if there even are any. Many people have difficulty assimilating back into civilian life, though.

< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 2/5/2013 9:12:12 AM >

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to EsotericLady)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 9:15:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
[I am also having trouble seen how technology is involved....


Tech tends to improve things. But, at our current state of technology, even a SEAL has limitations. That was my point. We have yet to develop the ability to instantaneously travel from one spot to another, so if Routh was not within reach, all the SEAL training Chris had may not have been worth a damn in that interaction.

Sorry for the confusion.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 9:31:05 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
[I am also having trouble seen how technology is involved....


Tech tends to improve things. But, at our current state of technology, even a SEAL has limitations. That was my point. We have yet to develop the ability to instantaneously travel from one spot to another, so if Routh was not within reach, all the SEAL training Chris had may not have been worth a damn in that interaction.

Sorry for the confusion.


The gun shoots were reported at point blank, it was close, how close we may never know, but I think Ron Paul has a good idea about this

"Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense"

I think another part of the above statement is inapproiate.

http://news.yahoo.com/ron-pauls-puzzling-critique-murdered-seal-chris-kyle-072000026.html

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:10:29 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
It simply looks like more seizing on a tragedy to score political points.


How else can those looking to fix the problems with our countries stance on guns make their point to those who refuse to acknowledge that there are problems other than to point to all the tragedies?

No,no,no Steel....we are supposed to wait,observing a respectable period of silence.....than and only than are we supposed to speak of these things.
Of course by that time,given the relative lack of memory of the American public we have all moved on....see how that works

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:10:35 AM   
Just0Plain0Mike


Posts: 127
Joined: 6/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
Chris was a trained SEAL, they, as I do believe, are trained react, to as you put it a "sucker punch", he was to great phyical condition as well. I have worked with mentally ill person and we are trained in how to avoid and react to such things as well. This is not to make a political statement, just questions of how this happened.


No matter how well you're trained, no one is perfect. No one can be 100% "on" all the time. Even a SEAL is going to relax and let their guard down.

When you're at a range, the only one with a gun in their hand is the person on the line shooting. When you're not shooting, your gun should be unloaded, cleared, and on the bench/shelf, and you should be back a few feet away from the shooter. Now if you're standing there, with no weapon, several feet away, and the shooter decides to turn and kill you, there's not a whole lot you can do.



< Message edited by Just0Plain0Mike -- 2/5/2013 10:12:21 AM >

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:14:09 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Never let a crises go to waste

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:18:26 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		you cannot have a crises.   There can be only more than one. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:20:06 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

So in a place surrounded by guns, and where the victim was probably armed with a gun, and where everyone was trained in gun use, NO ONE was able to defend him against the perpetrator. Not one single person.

Someone explain to me again how having access to guns helps us defend ourselves if we are attacked by a maniac?

Every day over 200 people are shot in the U.S. Every day over 80 of those people die. This man is simply another statistic and his death is no sadder or less sad than that of the other 80 people who died the same day that he did. 80 families lost a loved one on the day he died. His death just happened to make the news.

What is happening in this country is nothing short of tragic. And this man is only one very small example.



Ever hear the term "sucker punch" ? If someone unexpectedly punches you in the face, or draws a gun and begins shooting, it's very hard to react to. There's a brief moment of surprise, hell a much longer moment for someone untrained in violence, where you just can't react. Where your brain is trying to go from calm to danger. In this instance, it seems that the shooter unloaded into his two victims at point blank range, and then left quickly. Had he stayed and tried to shot up the range, I imagine that he'd have been met with a hail of gunfire fairly quickly, once the shock wore off.

I agree that what's happening in this country is tragic. I see it as a tragedy when people exploit the deaths of children and war heroes for political gain.

You tossed out some numbers, 200 shot, 80 dead. Does it say anywhere whether those shot were the victim or the aggressor? Because that makes a huge difference to me.

I"m calling bullshit on that last sentence.
I doubt anything about this discussion makes a difference with you at all.
You are pro gun and that is that....no amount of dead children will dissuade you of this opinion.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:26:28 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Never let a crises go to waste

WTF....one of these(gun "crises") pops up every other week or so,miss one another will be along in a bit...so no worries.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Chris Kyle, Navy Seal and sniper. Why did this hav... - 2/5/2013 10:30:26 AM   
TheRyan7


Posts: 43
Joined: 3/25/2012
Status: offline 		Would you take a recovering alchoholic to a bar?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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