RE: Collateral murder (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 5:21:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So what about Al Alwakis son ?

There was no justification for that.



Hey I feel bad and if there was another way,I`d be all for it.

I wouldn`t hesitate even a half a second to do the same thing, firing a Howitzer from a mile away......son or not.





We are NOT going to let the target off just because they are out of range of conventional weapons.



I don`t recall very much fuss over cruise missiles or any guided missile in the past.



What is it about drones that makes them so much more scarier?




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 5:35:11 PM)

quote:

habeus



Habeas.



PeonForHer -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 5:53:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So what about Al Alwakis son ?

There was no justification for that.



Hey I feel bad and if there was another way,I`d be all for it.

I wouldn`t hesitate even a half a second to do the same thing, firing a Howitzer from a mile away......son or not.





We are NOT going to let the target off just because they are out of range of conventional weapons.



I don`t recall very much fuss over cruise missiles or any guided missile in the past.



What is it about drones that makes them so much more scarier?




So, would you feel the same way about, for instance, the deaths of children who happened to be nearby should a terrorist on American soil get targeted in the same way? Would you feel that, for example, the deaths of said hypothetical kids be 'on the terrorist' because he'd used such kids to shield himself, rather than on those who'd launched the drone assault?



epiphiny43 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 6:05:24 PM)

See next post:



epiphiny43 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 6:07:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So what about Al Alwakis son ?

There was no justification for that.

There are informed sources that completely disagree with you.
http://moredotcommonsense.blogspot.com/2013/02/anwar-al-alwakis-son-sought-martyrdom.html
I'm also impressed by his analysis on how dissident alternative candidates with no chance of success handed the POTUS job to what I consider an incompetent nut case, the shrub. I thought that at the time and still do.

Another thoughtful blog on the father: http://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2011/10/anwar-al-alwakis-carnival-of-ironies.html

I'm as strong on due process as anyone. Stopping criminal actions before innocent people die is sometimes a higher priority. (A gunman in a tower may be a very pertinent example?) Particularly when the group being targeted has a public policy, regular media advocacy of and past history of using weapons of mass destruction, from IEDs to fully inhabited civilian airliners and up.
The recommendations for small commando raids to remove individuals is so unrealistic, these campaigners must have been Republican National Committee policy makers. Black helicopters in the night tend to draw fire from everyone. What would Your neighborhood do if there had been raids lately by foreign troops?
The necessary for mission insertion and retrieval suppression of ground fire with automatic weapons and supporting aircraft should raise the body counts to hundreds instead of at most dozens. You don't knock out resolute people 'defending their town' with awesome firepower, you have to kill each weapon operator. Villages get flat doing this. And many missions will fail with often total casualties among the raiders. Ground vehicle attacks have even less possibility of anyone returning alive. A few objectives would be accomplished, but the US military frowns on suicide missions, as do our soldier's families and congressional representatives.
The real problem is the US failure for many reasons to have adequate intelligence on the ground. Religious, political, linguistic and racial difficulties may make improving what we have impossible. If we can't get better intelligence, I fear the criticisms of drone strikes energizing more opposition to the US than it removes may well be true.

The dilemma for US policy makers is to allow present enemies time and life to organize massively destructive raids on US interests and certainly US populations or stop those any way now and risk alienating enough people world wide to create a future culture and shooting war that kills far more. I don't see an alternative with any better outcome yet. The technology that will let us target individuals in a crowd of innocents will also let the radical dissidents do the same to the leaders of the world trying to bring peace and cooperation into existence.
The real war is inside Islam and we can only hope those who understand the true precepts of the religion emerge victorious in their 'marketplace of ideas' over the radicals who pervert the religion for hate and death.



Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 6:18:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So what about Al Alwakis son ?

There was no justification for that.



Hey I feel bad and if there was another way,I`d be all for it.

I wouldn`t hesitate even a half a second to do the same thing, firing a Howitzer from a mile away......son or not.





We are NOT going to let the target off just because they are out of range of conventional weapons.



I don`t recall very much fuss over cruise missiles or any guided missile in the past.



What is it about drones that makes them so much more scarier?




So, would you feel the same way about, for instance, the deaths of children who happened to be nearby should a terrorist on American soil get targeted in the same way? Would you feel that, for example, the deaths of said hypothetical kids be 'on the terrorist' because he'd used such kids to shield himself, rather than on those who'd launched the drone assault?




Yup.

The former.......

I`d do it with a Howitzer or an RPG.

Hand me the lanyard or the launcher.



PeonForHer -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 6:31:51 PM)

Wow. OK, so long as you're sure that none of your neighbours, and their kids, is unwittingly sheltering a terrorist, or being forced to shelter one.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 6:43:29 PM)

yeah its a tough one. collateral damage is acknowledged by the department of defense & civilains get killed. but the threat has been curbed. witout these actions who can say what destruction terrorists will cause? consider mali the lesser of evils?



kdsub -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 6:55:46 PM)

quote:

Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world


Perhaps not but if they did I will guarantee you this... They would not give a shit.

Butch



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Collateral murder (2/12/2013 7:14:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world

yeah right. got anyhting to back that up?



Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 2:35:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world

yeah right. got anyhting to back that up?



You could do worse than start with some of the comments from Americans on this very Forum.

Having been on the end of a few myself I am amazed you missed them.



Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 2:38:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So what about Al Alwakis son ?

There was no justification for that.

There are informed sources that completely disagree with you.
http://moredotcommonsense.blogspot.com/2013/02/anwar-al-alwakis-son-sought-martyrdom.html




I would hardly call an anonymous blogger an informed source.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 4:54:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world

yeah right. got anyhting to back that up?

You could do worse than start with some of the comments from Americans on this very Forum.

Having been on the end of a few myself I am amazed you missed them.

sure enough but a few ignorant cmers is a pretty small sample to be stretched to a majority 300 mill at least post 9/11.



Zonie63 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 1:55:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world


Perhaps not but if they did I will guarantee you this... They would not give a shit.

Butch


Historically, Americans probably cared even less about the outside world or how they viewed America prior to World War II. Since then, our government has found it necessary to project this image of champion of freedom and democracy around the world, while doing so within the rules and structure of the international alliance system - which is something we previously were not accustomed to.

So it seems at a certain level, some Americans do care about image and how we're perceived by the outside world, probably more so than we did 100 years ago. Of course, some of it may also be self-image, as I think it's important to America how we see ourselves, too. We're a proud nation, and most Americans tend to think of themselves as good people. We think of ourselves as the good guys, and when people try to make it look like we're the bad guys, Americans might get a bit put off by that.



Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 3:52:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

sure enough but a few ignorant cmers is a pretty small sample to be stretched to a majority 300 mill at least post 9/11.


Which doesnt change the premis that many Americans have the notion "If you are not with us, you are against us" and "New World order" to quote Bush Jnr and Snr respectively. While I agree it isnt the majority, its still a significant proportion.



Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 4:03:39 PM)

Good point Zonie but all the time America sees no distinction between one Muslim and another, those in Muslims lands wont see things any differently.

Lets not forget when Muslims wanted to build a Mosque in NY, there was a massive outcry regards "Victory Mosques"... Despite the group involved being the polar opposite from the Waahibist movement AQ is influenced by.

What an irony that many of those same individuals hailed as "Muhajideen" by the US when they were resisting Russia, are now listed as terrorists.

Many of those armed under Charlie Wilsons involvement have ended up in Baghram, Gitmo or are now dead. The average Afghan must indeed be wondering whats going on with US policy.



Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 4:11:31 PM)

This why,when President Obama went around the world acknowledged that torture was wrong,that we wouldn`t start preemptive wars(especially the 1st use of nukes) etc...., ...the conservatives here labeled it "the apology tour"...



Projecting a more humble, less belligerent front,basically reassuring the world that we were going to stop being a dick is the reason he won the Nobel Prize.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 5:15:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
sure enough but a few ignorant cmers is a pretty small sample to be stretched to a majority 300 mill at least post 9/11.

Which doesnt change the premis that many Americans have the notion "If you are not with us, you are against us" and "New World order" to quote Bush Jnr and Snr respectively. While I agree it isnt the majority, its still a significant proportion.

yep some have that view but def not a majority after the anger over 9/11 settled. think the new world order stuff is post cold war crap bush sr spouted that tin foilers latched onto.



kdsub -> RE: Collateral murder (2/13/2013 7:19:04 PM)

quote:

Which doesn't change the premis that many Americans have the notion "If you are not with us, you are against us"


I don't believe that is what is going on...I believe it is more like...We are doing our best...now what the hell are you doing but bitching. I do not mean that personally Politesub. I think Americans just get frustrated when we are constantly prodded to act, because like it or not we are the preeminent western power on earth, without help... Then when we do act we seldom get constructive helpful advice and aid...just criticism.

This is the price we pay I suppose and we are just the current target of this type of treatment…Not so long ago it was you and before that other world powers forced to lead when others would not.

We are no more arrogant then any other people... Just at this time we are targets of world envy and it pisses us off.

PS… I do mean in general...I don't mean to minimize the contributions and sacrifices of our allies throughout the world…but keep in mind they are not acting for us but for themselves.

Butch



tweakabelle -> RE: Collateral murder (2/14/2013 3:47:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world

yeah right. got anyhting to back that up?

Just about any post by Wants Of The Flesh on international affairs would constitute strong if not compelling evidence to confirm deathtothepixies' claim.

For further evidence look to our resident bunch of deluded US-based Zionists and their deluded often insane ravings that masquerade as posts here.



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