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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/8/2013 8:07:16 PM

jlf1961

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When they changed my anti depressant, they changed the time I was to take it, so I basically had to go 36 hours with out something in my system. I cant really say I noticed anything, but I did seem almost over cautious during that time.

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Post #: 41

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/8/2013 8:32:25 PM

stephINca

Posts: 87
Joined: 1/19/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Judging from the voice mail full of hate speech he just left me, you're right. He was hateful towards black people though, which took me completely by surprise, as he's never given any indication of feeling this way. (We'd previously argued about the blood libel thing, about which he got his information from youtube "documentaries.")

But his message was also bizarre, paranoid, and jumbled. Like a skin head mad lib. You could substitute aliens in there too, for which I would have compassion and not judgment.

Power flickering, going to post now without really completing this thought.

Based on the voicemail and you being a blood relative you can have him 5150'd for 72 hours and possibly longer after the doc evaluates him. Seems to be an obvious "danger to others or society" It's hard I know. Been mentally ill for years.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 42

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/8/2013 8:43:46 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kanedesade

Woah, hold on there. I never endorsed the Nazis, nor do I agree with any of their thinking. Slow down a bit there.

The sad part is, if you look at what they did, 90% of it was stolen from America, pre-1920s (eugenics, ect.)

Anyone in their right mind would NEVER agree with Nazism, nor should they.

You're right. I got triggered and overreacted. Sorry about that.

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Post #: 43

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/8/2013 9:46:09 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I'm guessing your brother really is a skinhead. Sorry but his saying "I don't know" was his way of saying he doesn't want to tell you because he knows it would start an argument with you.

You said his mom found a copy of mein kampf. I'm betting if you talk to him further, look at his other tats, really pay attention to him, you will find out what you want to know.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear and I'm sorry. Not meaning to hurt you. Even with his thought and mood disorder, I don't think this excuses his views on this issue and I don't think those are the reasons he is a skinhead. He's a skinhead because that's what he believes, unfortunately.

Judging from the voice mail full of hate speech he just left me, you're right. He was hateful towards black people though, which took me completely by surprise, as he's never given any indication of feeling this way. (We'd previously argued about the blood libel thing, about which he got his information from youtube "documentaries.")

But his message was also bizarre, paranoid, and jumbled. Like a skin head mad lib. You could substitute aliens in there too, for which I would have compassion and not judgment.

Power flickering, going to post now without really completing this thought.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Perhaps when his meds are completely good again, you can have a calm discussion about his feelings. Perhaps something happened to make him feel this way. I hope that you can somehow manage to get him to see reason. I really do.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 44

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/8/2013 9:47:51 PM

herworshipper

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/26/2010
Status: offline

Give him time, he will regret it. You might want to be ready with a list of businesses that remove or camoflage tatoos.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 45

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/8/2013 11:09:57 PM

heartcream

Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

Everyone brings up that ridiculous argument.

This is not Japan, and thanks to the Nazis, no one thinks of its original meaning anymore. HERE and NOW, it is a symbol most used by white supremacists, and has no positive implications.

EVERYONE brings up that 'ridiculous' argument but NO ONE thinks of its original meaning anymore huh?

Well I am certainly not 'no one' and I am aware of the fact that the Nazi's appropriated that design.

It was known worldwide as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness. This symbol that has been around for thousands of years. It was even used by Rudyard Kipling, the Anglo-Indian writer, in the dust jackets of all his books until the rise of Nazism made it impossible to depict in a positive true light. It was also used in Britain, by Robert Baden-Powell’s Boy Scout movement and the Finnish Air Force in World War II. Although rarely seen in Western architecture, interlocking swastikas make up the floor design of the cathedral of Amiens, France.

There’s even a small mining town in Ontario called Swastika. Attempts by the government of Ontario to change the town’s name during World War II were rejected by the residents.

The use of the swastika or hooked cross, goes back thousands of years and is considered sacred to Native American cultures, in Africa, Asia and in Europe and has no connection whatsoever with the meaning that is incorporated into Nazi, Germany, and anti-Semitism, for centuries it had positive meanings.

People are not stupid (or ridiculous) for wanting to reclaim the original meaning of the swastika. When it is tattooed on a loved one's head we can only hope that others may be able to interpret it in the original meaning of auspiciousness and good luck. I wish this for your brother and your family OP.

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(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 46

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 10:00:52 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

People are not stupid (or ridiculous) for wanting to reclaim the original meaning of the swastika. When it is tattooed on a loved one's head we can only hope that others may be able to interpret it in the original meaning of auspiciousness and good luck. I wish this for your brother and your family OP.

You're right, people aren't stupid. But the original meaning of the swastika will ALWAYS be mired by Hitler. It is ridiculous to try to "reclaim" it, since it would involve educating the entire world, every single person, which simply won't happen.

Prior to this post, I was aware of the swastika original meanings, however, when I see one, I will never think, "oh look someone has a good luck symbol." I will always connect it with hate.

Sometimes, a thing's "new meaning" has so overtaken the old, there is no turning back.

(in reply to heartcream)

Post #: 47

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 10:34:31 AM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

For a long time, I was a very conscientious (and mildly, secretly self-righteous) taker of my meds. It puzzled me that friends failed to be as diligent as I was. Of course, my dutiful dosing was helped enormously by the fact that I took my meds just after rising and before retiring. So taking the pills swiftly became a part of my routine.

Recently, though, I've begun on some pills that need to be pocketed and taken later in the day, with food. I'm chagrined to say that, more often than I care to count, I've opened my pillbox at day's end or the next morning, only to find it full of medications that, in the mayhem of the workday, I'd totally blanked on taking.

Another factor in the joys of medication compliance struck me this morning--stress. As I'm learning firsthand, it can take a phenomenal toll on one's memory. Today, I honestly looked at my pill bottles for five minutes, trying to remember whether I'd taken the pills yet. Sigh. When I'm in a more efficient frame of mind, I use pill organizers. Then I can tell at a glance if I've taken my meds.

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(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 48

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 10:51:11 AM

ShaharThorne

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That is what I do, dc. I take the least important pills in the morning and the important ones at night.

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Post #: 49

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 11:50:10 AM

TheLilSquaw

Posts: 2340
Joined: 10/24/2012
From: Middle River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Judging from the voice mail full of hate speech he just left me, you're right. He was hateful towards black people though, which took me completely by surprise, as he's never given any indication of feeling this way. (We'd previously argued about the blood libel thing, about which he got his information from youtube "documentaries.")

But his message was also bizarre, paranoid, and jumbled. Like a skin head mad lib. You could substitute aliens in there too, for which I would have compassion and not judgment.

Power flickering, going to post now without really completing this thought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stephINca

Based on the voicemail and you being a blood relative you can have him 5150'd for 72 hours and possibly longer after the doc evaluates him. Seems to be an obvious "danger to others or society" It's hard I know. Been mentally ill for years.

steph,
Being a blood relative and not agreeing with his believes does not give her the right to have him 5150ed. Nor are judges fond of force feeding people medication, for lots of obvious legal reasons.

How do you get that he is a threat to himself or other's from her statement?
I'm just curious.

< Message edited by TheLilSquaw -- 2/9/2013 11:51:07 AM >

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(in reply to stephINca)

Post #: 50

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 12:10:28 PM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
People are not stupid (or ridiculous) for wanting to reclaim the original meaning of the swastika.

Possibly not (but I suspect that level of foolish naivety is verging on the ridiculously stupid), but they're definitely pissing in the wind.

Also: the "reclaiming the original meaning" line has been used by at least two right leaning pop bands who didn't have the courage of their (fuckwitted) convictions in a desperate and doomed bid to dig themselves out of the hole they'd put themselves in by using the things.

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(in reply to heartcream)

Post #: 51

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 8:38:02 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline

Based on what you have said I'd have to say that he has gone over to the Dark Side. And not in the fun, "Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies!" way.

Maybe it's the medication (or lack thereof) or maybe it's not, but like the Force in George Lucas' trilogy* the Dark Side is seductive. It is a way to blame others for your problems. It's easy, and there are whole groups to fulfill your every hateful need.

"It's not my fault! It's the Jews!"
" It's not My fault, it's the blacks!"
"It's not my fault it's the Illuminati!"

My high school covered well over 400 square miles. Most of that territory was populated by poor people. This was in the North BTW, not the South. They had an irrational fear of black people and Jews. Not one of them had ever met a black person and they'd never met a Jew until I moved there. Twelve hundred kids and 44 of them were KKK and even more were neo-Nazis.

The thing is, it wasn't about hating Jews or people with dark skin or foreigners: it was about belonging, because they all had crappy home lives. Actually, a bunch of them were probably mentally ill too.

There are two sad things here:

1) He may be mentally ill, but it is his life to live, no matter how much you disagree with his choices.
2) It is actually a part of our human condition to fear the 'other.'

A couple of notes on the second: This is absolutely true. You can track this from primitive tribes to animals (chimpanzees and lions killing young that weren't sired by themselves.) As much as religion is denigrated these days it was religion and the thought of something greater than ourselves that inspired tolerance.

As for number one? Well that statement is pretty much the cornerstone of The Constitution.

You don't have to approve, and you don't have to agree with him. How you deal with this is up to you.

"These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

Taken out of context, to be sure, but if you replace 'country' with 'family' you will get the gist of what I mean. The important thing is that you have to make your own decision about how to deal with this. You need to do it in a way that you, yourself, can live with.

*There were only ever three movies, and there will only ever be three movies. I do not mean to make fun of your situation, just trying to inject a little levity to lighten the mood.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 52

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 10:38:51 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz
thanks to the Nazis, no one thinks of its original meaning anymore. HERE and NOW, it is a symbol most used by white supremacists, and has no positive implications.

I agree.

If I recall correctly, it used to symbolize the sun and the ruling pagan god and the Divine itself.

In any case, the pagan gods in later times preferred for people to not worship them but the Divine instead. So trying to reclaim the original meaning of the swastika is rather futile.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/9/2013 11:03:28 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/9/2013 11:00:46 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Another factor in the joys of medication compliance struck me this morning--stress. As I'm learning firsthand, it can take a phenomenal toll on one's memory. Today, I honestly looked at my pill bottles for five minutes, trying to remember whether I'd taken the pills yet. Sigh. When I'm in a more efficient frame of mind, I use pill organizers. Then I can tell at a glance if I've taken my meds.

I go through this every single morning. I will take mine first thing in the morning and then stand there immediately after taking them asking myself...did I take my pills? And then I ask myself that all day long because I can't remember if I did or didn't. I have to really think hard and try to retrace my entire day to remember. It's awful!

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Post #: 54

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 12:32:42 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

You need to get one of those pill organizers. You fill it once a week, and then if you aren't sure if you took them, you look at the organizer...if that day is empty you took them. I had to do that because I take so many different medications between the fibro, diabetes, cholesteral, etc. when i left them in the bottle I would invariably forget one (or all).

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Post #: 55

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 12:48:13 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Master has said the same thing and I always mean to buy one but then I forget to buy one. I put it on my list on my phone but then I forget to look at my list when I'm out lol.

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Post #: 56

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 12:56:03 AM

heartcream

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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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I think the swastika's original meaning is pretty messed up for sure. I dont think we have to educate every single person in the entire world in order to begin to shift the damage on an innocent geometrical design taken to represent something completely reprehensible.

As far as the brother goes, if it were my brother and it happened to him, I would latch onto the original meaning look a bit deeper to find some potential for higher good, bigger picture connection and see if there was anything at all that was 'good' about the experience. I would begin to see 'his' swastika as good luck, auspiciousness and all the other things it meant originally. Gotta hope for the best.

When I see someone with a swastika on their person, or bag or whatever, my first thought is that is really messed up. But if I see it done beautifully and not scary, like in architecture or in ancient designs, I dont see only the Hitler thing. When I see the rainbow I dont always assume it represents being gay--no intent to diminish the horror of what happened by comparing it to the appropriation of the rainbow by our same sex folk. There is a before and there is an after. There is a tomorrow. Maybe one day the collective consciousness can shift the focus enough to see a primal pattern was maligned as was much else during that time.

I wish you and your brother all the good luck in the world OP.

_____________________________

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I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 57

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 1:30:05 AM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I'm guessing your brother really is a skinhead. Sorry but his saying "I don't know" was his way of saying he doesn't want to tell you because he knows it would start an argument with you.

You said his mom found a copy of mein kampf. I'm betting if you talk to him further, look at his other tats, really pay attention to him, you will find out what you want to know.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear and I'm sorry. Not meaning to hurt you. Even with his thought and mood disorder, I don't think this excuses his views on this issue and I don't think those are the reasons he is a skinhead. He's a skinhead because that's what he believes, unfortunately.

I wish there was something soothing to say to you except to tell your brother you love him and you wish you could help him and that he would see things differently. That's really all you can do, unless your family really feels he is a danger to himself or others. At that point he needs someone to be appointed his guardian.

I wish you the best of luck.

I agree with this in its entirety kalikshama. I'm sorry this is happening with your family.

quote:

jlf1961
For the record, the swastika was used in Nepal, Tibet, Japan and other Asian countries as religious symbols. It was even used by native American cultures to symbolize the thunder bird.

Yes it was corrupted by a mad man.

Just like the confederate battle flag.
That does not change what it means now.

Thank you for that. M

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Post #: 58

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 1:50:29 AM

theRose4U

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaharThorne

Is it still illegal to beat the shit out of siblings for doing shitty things?

Sadly yes, this is the main reason I live 1000 miles from my family...to prevent beating the crap out of people that deserve it!

[Quote]
Being mentally ill does not excuse stupidity...

No but it is FREQUENTLY a cause

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Post #: 59

RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 10:23:33 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I think the swastika's original meaning is pretty messed up for sure. I dont think we have to educate every single person in the entire world in order to begin to shift the damage on an innocent geometrical design taken to represent something completely reprehensible.

Particularly when the people trying to shift it don't have any problem with said reprehensible associations and are just blathering about the "original meaning" to try and weasel out of taking responsibility for claiming the design themselves...

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(in reply to heartcream)

Post #: 60

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