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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 1:44:59 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I think the swastika's original meaning is pretty messed up for sure. I dont think we have to educate every single person in the entire world in order to begin to shift the damage on an innocent geometrical design taken to represent something completely reprehensible.


Particularly when the people trying to shift it don't have any problem with said reprehensible associations and are just blathering about the "original meaning" to try and weasel out of taking responsibility for claiming the design themselves...


The thing (for me) is that trying to make that "shift" is no different than trying to say, "let's forget what happened and move on." No, No, a thousand times NO. That is an event that should NEVER be forgotten, because if it is, then it can easily be repeated.

It's lovely to try to live in some hearts and rainbows world where evil doesn't exist. Reality is that it does exist and regardless of that symbol's original meaning, it is now FOREVER attached to the atrocities of WWII and should remain that way, so that people always remember, and when seeing that symbol on someone, know it represents one of the worst kinds of hate.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/10/2013 2:42:36 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Word.

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/11/2013 1:30:49 AM   
Silentrunner26


Posts: 424
Joined: 7/15/2009
Status: offline 		I can think of so many things I have done that pisse dpeople off . I bet if you did the same you would think of many things you have or do that piss other people off .
What I am saying is he did it and it is done you talked about it now move on . If your still pissed off that he won't remove it then remember that this is still the U.S.A.
and you need to back off his ass about it . You see him ask him to wear a hat so you can't see it . He does great he don't ask him to leave or you go away .
What you want and what he does are two different things . You have a life and so does he . We all do things that piss other people off . I am a Southern Baptist
can you guess how many people that pisses off ? Or how many of them I piss off when I tell them women should have to right to an abortion clinic because it is their right as
A woman born in the US . More people hate me than like me and I don't care .

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/11/2013 9:38:11 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I think the swastika's original meaning is pretty messed up for sure. I dont think we have to educate every single person in the entire world in order to begin to shift the damage on an innocent geometrical design taken to represent something completely reprehensible.


Particularly when the people trying to shift it don't have any problem with said reprehensible associations and are just blathering about the "original meaning" to try and weasel out of taking responsibility for claiming the design themselves...


Huh?


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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/11/2013 10:09:02 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:



ORIGINAL: Moonhead



Particularly when the people trying to shift it don't have any problem with said reprehensible associations and are just blathering about the "original meaning" to try and weasel out of taking responsibility for claiming the design themselves...

quote:


The thing (for me) is that trying to make that "shift" is no different than trying to say, "let's forget what happened and move on." No, No, a thousand times NO. That is an event that should NEVER be forgotten, because if it is, then it can easily be repeated.

It's lovely to try to live in some hearts and rainbows world where evil doesn't exist. Reality is that it does exist and regardless of that symbol's original meaning, it is now FOREVER attached to the atrocities of WWII and should remain that way, so that people always remember, and when seeing that symbol on someone, know it represents one of the worst kinds of hate.


You are implying I "dont have any problem with said reprehensible..." What does this even mean? People will forget what Hitler did? Things, people and places can and do move on, they need to. No one forgets, no one forgets, no one forgets, no one forgets. Germany itself has a bad rap for what happened there and it will also be "FOREVER" attached. I personally can differentiate out. All Germans with blonde hair and blue eyes are not Nazi's are they? Not sure what you weaseling out you are referring to?

Calling me living in hearts and rainbows (not sure where you get that or that I say evil does not exist?) is not who I am, if you knew me (and you dont) and think it is fine to insult me repeatedly (it makes you feel better?). I really, really dont feel or believe you have a better grasp of reality than I do. If you really do need a reminder/representation of hate, (why do you need that by the way?)--maybe go with the Hitler moustache instead of something that existed far longer than Hitler ever did. You do not have the final say on what healing will or will not happen to maligned symbols, people and places throughout time, including the Holocaust.

Saying that if we could see the pattern for its original meaning is like saying (or "blathering") to forget it ever happened, and also state that if we grasp anything, heal anything from that time means it would easily be repeated is not very logical. Symbols and places do not create the harm. No one is going to forget, do not worry yourself about that.


< Message edited by heartcream -- 2/11/2013 10:14:30 PM >

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 3:05:55 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
What does this even mean? People will forget what Hitler did? Things, people and places can and do move on, they need to. No one forgets, no one forgets, no one forgets, no one forgets. Germany itself has a bad rap for what happened there and it will also be "FOREVER" attached.

People have been deliberately forgetting (or more accurately denying) what Hitler did since about five minutes after the end of the second world war, sadly. Trying to disassociate the swastika from its most famous role in modern history often goes hand in hand with that.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 1:36:52 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		No one is going to forget, huh? Do you realize how many young people aren't even AWARE of how bad it was?

The concentration camps, the museums, the movies, the symbols don't exist to be "tourist attractions." They exist because it is important that people never forget.

That's great that you can differentiate. It's amusing that you think the world at large is ever going to be able to do so. You think it is such a "good luck" symbol, paste one on your door and see how your neighbors react. They aren't going to think, "oh isn't that sweet, she has that lovely ancient good luck symbol on her door." They are going to think that you are involved in some sort of hate group.

Why did I say that you live in some hearts and rainbows world? Because you seem to honestly believe that the swastika can revert to its original meaning. It can't. It won't. Not now, not in the future. And yes, when people see that silly little mustache and they have ever seen pictures of Hitler, they are likely to be reminded of that.

You can certainly feel free to see people wearing that symbol and choose to believe it is there as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness. The reality is now, and will forever be that they are wearing it for hateful reasons, and if you ever said such to them, they would think you were out of your mind. They don't care what it *used* to mean. For them, it represents the hate they feel towards certain other people. Thinking otherwise is delusional.

As Lynnx said, here and now it is a symbol with no positive implications. So throw whatever insults you feel the need to throw at me. Tell any black person that symbols are meaningless and show them someone in a KKK outfit. You think that doesn't create harm? For years it struck terror into every black person in the country, and it is used for the same purpose today. Same with the swastika. That symbol terrified European Jews, just as the skull and cross bones on the SS uniforms did. Do you think they would think it meant something wonderful? Could you be that delusional? Really? Perhaps a little research on what actually happened might enlighten you a bit.

(in reply to heartcream)
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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 2:46:44 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I can definitely vouch for the younger generation being clueless. I have talked to my daughter and her friends about the Holocaust and basically they knew nothing at all. When we were traveling overseas last year, we went to some holocaust sites and my daughter didn't have a single clue other than there was this dictator named Hitler who killed a bunch of Jews.

And it's not just that generation. I've known lots and lots of people who don't have a clue, some even older than I am. It always shocks me and scares me at the same time.

People are already forgetting. Personally no one should forget it or try to change it into some kind of positive light or something. We need to remember the horrors of our past if we are to move on to our future. There's a reason I hold onto my past. I don't want to repeat the stupidity of what I did and was.


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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 4:35:53 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

That sounds awful all around. Big hugs, my dear!

I wonder if there's a way to add to the tattoo in order to camouflage the revolting design (assuming your brorther's willing to do that).

http://newcovenantinktattoo.net/steven_neills_cover_ups

http://www.tattooartists.org/Gal75051_Swastika_Cover-Up.asp

http://www.memecenter.com/fun/91384/swastika-cover-up-tattoo

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/swastika%20tattoo

I'm not sure how helpful these are, but perhaps they'll spark some better ideas!


Awesome; I'd been thinking of removal, not cover up!


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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 4:37:09 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I presume you have a question?


I was asking for the type of support that I did in fact receive - thanks everyone!

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 9:08:58 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		The thing is though kali, that even a cover up of the tattoo isn't going to change what you seem to realize have become his views on something. You can't force him to get a cover up (unless of course, you are willing to go to court to have him declared incompetent), so a cover up is really just to increase your comfort around him.

Wouldn't a better tactic be to wait until he is well regulated on his medications and then to try to talk to him about how and why he developed these views, and through that conversation hopefully help him learn that his views are really not acceptable, and then maybe he will want to get it covered himself?

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 9:10:38 PM   
LafayetteLady


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Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		That's my point, exactly. My son is well aware of the holocaust, and I know he is younger than your daughter. But we have talked about it quite a lot, and he really still doesn't understand the full horror of what happened. I wish he had taken the trip with me to Auschwitz like originally planned because then he would understand much better.

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 9:36:11 PM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
Status: offline 		Two movies portraying some of the horrors are ESCAPE FROM SOBIBOR (Rutger Hauer), SCHINDLER'S LIST (Liam Neeson). There are others of course, but these two, especially Sobibor, show a little of what the surviving victims endured (i.e jewelers having to remove the gold from teeth that had been yanked from gas chamber victims). The younger generation is pretty movie oriented, it might help get SOME of the message across.

You know, there was a severe raw material shortage during the war; the nazis wasted nothing that had any value...they even made the jews harvest HAIR from other jews, which was later used to pack automobile upholstery and car door liners, make yarn for soldiers socks, products for industrial uses, etc.

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/12/2013 11:11:29 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I have seen Schindler's List countless times. I still cry when they give him the ring. My son has seen the movie as well, which is part of what prompted a lot of his questions. When he was younger, he had a tendency to like movies based on real events (and of course, since he was a boy, anything where the animals ate the people, lol).

I haven't seen or even heard of Sobibor. I will have to search and seen if I can't find it. I would like to see it.

Oh, and I know about the hair, the teeth, the filth, etc.

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 2/13/2013 6:13:36 AM   
theRose4U


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
People have been deliberately forgetting (or more accurately denying) what Hitler did since about five minutes after the end of the second world war, sadly. Trying to disassociate the swastika from its most famous role in modern history often goes hand in hand with that.

Don't worry if US politics keep on the path they are on the swastika will be the least of our problems. The friendly take over has already begun!!

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 4/9/2014 6:39:14 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		I'd updated this last week, but it got eaten, along with people's responses - thanks again.

Update - my brother is now on Thorazine and no longer has his racist beliefs. He's in the process of tattoo removal.

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 4/9/2014 7:30:18 AM   
Rasciallymisty


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Status: offline 		I have not posted till now......but I just want to say that is wonderful news kalikshama. I am happy for you and your brother both.  Hugsss

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 4/9/2014 8:58:31 AM   
DarkSteven


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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 4/9/2014 9:06:57 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
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Status: offline 		Makes me wonder who else could benefit from anti-psychotics.

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RE: My brother got a swastika tattoo; I feel sick - 4/9/2014 10:10:41 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Update - my brother is now on Thorazine and no longer has his racist beliefs. He's in the process of tattoo removal.

Hallelujah!

May this be the start of a new and happier life for him.

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