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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/13/2013 9:27:17 PM   
MissToYouRedux


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Referencing Ayn Rand, don't miss Maggie Simpson in "The Longest Daycare" (Matt Groening's oscar-nomiated short).

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/13/2013 11:50:51 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Politics, and succeeding in the business of politics, is built on manipulating emotions and ignorance, not on promoting critical thinking skills.

It would be irrational (in the sense of working against one's own self interests) for any career politician to want an electorate that has been taught to demand rational support for every assertion.

It would equally irrational for those who lobby career politicians to want a consumer base that is immune to advertising.

It would also be irrational for career bureacrats to want a populace who questions authority, red tape,and regulatory sleight of hand.

Partisanship has nothing to do with it.

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/15/2013 11:10:02 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Doubled down on the meaning? I would like to see proof of that.


How about I just quote the last time I told you that I've already explained this to you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There was a whole thread on this. Go back and read it. It's hilarious. I think the worst part of it was that, they acknowledged the mistake, they stated that they couldn't remove it from the platform because it had been voted on and ratified. They couldn't change it until the next vote or whatever, which was like 1 or 2 years away. And, in that thread, I believe I said that either they truly can't make the change, or they are just covering their asses and that is their true position. While I am not in Texas, I certainly hope the former is true.


Yeah....I already addressed that, here it is again:


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/
...Although a partial retraction followed, this was in terms of the wording, not the general meaning. It appears that their fear is that these “focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”...






(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/15/2013 3:32:37 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Doubled down on the meaning? I would like to see proof of that.

How about I just quote the last time I told you that I've already explained this to you?
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There was a whole thread on this. Go back and read it. It's hilarious. I think the worst part of it was that, they acknowledged the mistake, they stated that they couldn't remove it from the platform because it had been voted on and ratified. They couldn't change it until the next vote or whatever, which was like 1 or 2 years away. And, in that thread, I believe I said that either they truly can't make the change, or they are just covering their asses and that is their true position. While I am not in Texas, I certainly hope the former is true.

Yeah....I already addressed that, here it is again:
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/
...Although a partial retraction followed, this was in terms of the wording, not the general meaning. It appears that their fear is that these “focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”...


Yanno, you didn't prove shit. All you did was give your own opinion. I'm figuring that you'll continue to spout ideological bullshit until anyone who disagrees with you stops putting up with it. I quoted an interview with the guy. If you followed that link and read it, you'd be either lying your ass off now, or be showing that you can't read for comprehension. Personally, I think the former is true.

Have a great weekend.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/15/2013 3:55:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Yanno, you didn't prove shit. All you did was give your own opinion. I'm figuring that you'll continue to spout ideological bullshit until anyone who disagrees with you stops putting up with it. I quoted an interview with the guy. If you followed that link and read it, you'd be either lying your ass off now, or be showing that you can't read for comprehension. Personally, I think the former is true.

Nonsense.

The retraction misrepresented OBE and then knocked down that strawman to justify not teaching critical thinking skills and returning to rote memorization of "facts" as the prefered teaching method in Texas.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/16/2013 7:02:44 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Yeah....I already addressed that, here it is again:
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/
...Although a partial retraction followed, this was in terms of the wording, not the general meaning. It appears that their fear is that these “focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”...


Yanno, you didn't prove shit. All you did was give your own opinion.


The reality denial is staggering, the entire position is directly cited from [sarcasm]that bastion of communism[/sarcasm] forbes magazine. Not a word of it is me giving you my personal opinion, all of it is a direct quote.



< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/16/2013 7:06:58 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/16/2013 9:44:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

the entire position is directly cited from [sarcasm]that bastion of communism[/sarcasm] forbes magazine. Not a word of it is me giving you my personal opinion, all of it is a direct quote.

True enough, but it's also true that all you've quoted is an opinion from a blog written by an economist.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/16/2013 10:03:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

By opposing OBE they are saying that direct instruction of facts is the only acceptable teaching method and that teaching cildren to think critically is forbidden.

Bullshit. The "higher order thinking skills" language refers to a taxonomy of education objectives. The clue to this is the acronym HOTS.

Advocates of traditional education object to elevating HOTS above direct instruction of basic skills. Many forms of education reform, such as inquiry-based science, reform mathematics and whole language emphasize HOTS to solve problems and learn, sometimes deliberately omitting direct instruction of traditional methods, facts, or knowledge. ~Wikipedia

Opinions differ about HOTS and its underlying taxonomy, but its opponents are not against teaching children higher order thinking skills in the ordinary English meaning of that phrase.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2013 10:50:21 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 12:18:32 AM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I quoted an interview with the guy. If you followed that link and read it, you'd be either lying your ass off now, or be showing that you can't read for comprehension.

Or I'm capable of noticing that the guy is using a straw man to cover his ass.

Here, this time I'll cite you to demonstrate that the Texas GOP is against critical thinking:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4156576/mpage_1/key_parental%252Cauthority/tm.htm#4156666
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The key in their plank, to me, is in not supporting programs or policies that undermine parental authority.


When it comes to critical thinking, fixed beliefs are challenged, authority gets questioned. You seemed to get that here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The instructor is quite closed to discussions of politics and religion, but he does challenge anyone with a strong stance to support it. He's demonstrated that he's open-minded and accepting of any opinion as long as you can support it with credible substantiation. He'll call out anyone, regardless of his own beliefs, if they can't support their statements.

Traditional values instilled by ones parents and critical thinking are opposing schemes for forming a world view. Either they're for protecting the parental authority to pass their traditional values on to their children or they're for challenging the hell out of that.....

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 6:23:37 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

By opposing OBE they are saying that direct instruction of facts is the only acceptable teaching method and that teaching cildren to think critically is forbidden.

Bullshit. The "higher order thinking skills" language refers to a taxonomy of education objectives. The clue to this is the acronym HOTS.

Advocates of traditional education object to elevating HOTS above direct instruction of basic skills. Many forms of education reform, such as inquiry-based science, reform mathematics and whole language emphasize HOTS to solve problems and learn, sometimes deliberately omitting direct instruction of traditional methods, facts, or knowledge. ~Wikipedia

Opinions differ about HOTS and its underlying taxonomy, but its opponents are not against teaching children higher order thinking skills in the ordinary English meaning of that phrase.

K.

All critics no. The "critics" behind the texas GOP platform, Yes.

The tell tale statement is at the end of the platform plank
quote:

undermining parental authority

IOW no matter what nonsense the child is fed at home the schools must not challenge it. That definitely means what the plank says about not teaching critical thinking skills.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 6:24:37 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I quoted an interview with the guy. If you followed that link and read it, you'd be either lying your ass off now, or be showing that you can't read for comprehension.

Or I'm capable of noticing that the guy is using a straw man to cover his ass.
Here, this time I'll cite you to demonstrate that the Texas GOP is against critical thinking:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4156576/mpage_1/key_parental%252Cauthority/tm.htm#4156666
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The key in their plank, to me, is in not supporting programs or policies that undermine parental authority.

When it comes to critical thinking, fixed beliefs are challenged, authority gets questioned. You seemed to get that here:
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The instructor is quite closed to discussions of politics and religion, but he does challenge anyone with a strong stance to support it. He's demonstrated that he's open-minded and accepting of any opinion as long as you can support it with credible substantiation. He'll call out anyone, regardless of his own beliefs, if they can't support their statements.

Traditional values instilled by ones parents and critical thinking are opposing schemes for forming a world view. Either they're for protecting the parental authority to pass their traditional values on to their children or they're for challenging the hell out of that.....


Undermining parental authority isn't just challenging the beliefs and values that a parent might instill (which typically are religious). If the parent has the authority, the parent has the authority. Period. People bitch about AZ setting their own immigration rules because the Federal Government has that authority.

I see "parental authority" and it strikes me as defining who the boss is.

What part of "A better to do things is to say, 'Here are the facts on different issues, you make your own conclusions'" do you disagree with? Which part of that isn't promoting critical thinking?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 6:34:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What part of "A better to do things is to say, 'Here are the facts on different issues, you make your own conclusions'" do you disagree with? Which part of that isn't promoting critical thinking?

All of it.

Critical thinkng skills include the ability to evaluate sources, read for comprehension and detail, compare and contrast data etc..

This is why so many low information people don't accept the fact that the globe is warming. They hear someone say "it isn't happening" and since that supports their biases and desires they embrace it without bothering to check the claim out.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 9:19:22 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What part of "A better to do things is to say, 'Here are the facts on different issues, you make your own conclusions'" do you disagree with? Which part of that isn't promoting critical thinking?

That is not promoting critical thinking. You've had a teacher trying to get you to think critically, is that what he did?

Because you seem pretty clear that he was all about challenging your fixed beliefs. If one is against that process of questioning they are against the teaching of critical thinking.



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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 10:20:38 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What part of "A better to do things is to say, 'Here are the facts on different issues, you make your own conclusions'" do you disagree with? Which part of that isn't promoting critical thinking?

That is not promoting critical thinking. You've had a teacher trying to get you to think critically, is that what he did?
Because you seem pretty clear that he was all about challenging your fixed beliefs. If one is against that process of questioning they are against the teaching of critical thinking.


Allowing for a person to draw his/her own conclusions is promoting critical thinking. Teaching someone that one value is correct or one belief is incorrect isn't.

It's clear that defining right and wrong beliefs for a child isn't what the Texas GOP believes is up to the State via public education. I know it sticks in your craw that the Texas GOP is okay with allowing a parent to instill the morality of what is right and what is wrong. That is, imo, a responsibility of a parent. Teaching the fundamentals of math logic, reading and science are within the school's realm, but moral beliefs are not. That's something that can fall under the freedom to worship as one chooses.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 1:25:36 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Teaching someone that one value is correct or one belief is incorrect isn't.

Agreed, but saying that the Texas GOP could have an even worse stance on the subject of thinking isn't the same as demonstrating that they're promoting critical thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Allowing for a person to draw his/her own conclusions is promoting critical thinking.


Teaching someone what numbers are and refusing to teach them how those numbers can be manipulated isn't promoting calculus. Similarly teaching students facts and refusing to teach them that they can analyze and evaluate using those facts isn't promoting critical thinking.

The greatest English class you've ever taken wasn't about "Here are the facts on different issues, you make your own conclusions" it was about challenging those conclusions. Getting you to think more critically by forcing you to support your conclusions which was done by challenging said conclusions.

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 3:35:31 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Teaching the fundamentals of math logic, reading and science are within the school's realm, but moral beliefs are not. That's something that can fall under the freedom to worship as one chooses.


Jesus, DS. So, the most important stuff for a kid to learn is the parents' responsibility and professional educators should stay the hell away from it? And moral beliefs are solely a matter of religion? I shudder at the thought of children being brought up in Texas.


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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 3:45:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
know it sticks in your craw that the Texas GOP is okay with allowing a parent to instill the morality of what is right and what is wrong. That is, imo, a responsibility of a parent.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Texas parents teaching their kids, 150 years ago, that slavery was a fine and unavoidable institution? What makes you think parents have got the moral education of their kids right now?

Parents *do not* own their children. Also, when children grow up, they'll be part of human society, not just part of their families. Parents' rights over their children are very limited, IMO.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 5:21:01 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		Peon, your last quote is misattributed, it's actually a lie by DS about my position. Not a statement I made.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 6:22:28 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Peon, your last quote is misattributed, it's actually a lie by DS about my position. Not a statement I made.


It's a lie? So, you support a parent's right to instill the moral code in their children?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/17/2013 11:28:46 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Undermining parental authority isn't just challenging the beliefs and values that a parent might instill (which typically are religious).


Sure there are other ways of undermining parental authority but if you go back and look at the first half of the undermining parental authority sentence it turns out that belief challenging is exactly what they're talking about.

Now you may have yourself convinced that just means morality but you know perfectly well I disagree. I've certainly pointed out the indoctrination against biology, geology, cosmology, history and so forth to you before.

My actual position is that I'm horrified by parents brain washing their children to deny observable reality and the Texas GOP doing it's part to prevent said children from learning to think well enough to deprogram themselves. A position which I've spent several threads explaining to you.

So when you pretend that my issue is parent teaching their children about right and wrong, well your pants are on fire.


< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/17/2013 11:29:29 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 120
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