RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 4:26:33 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Undermining parental authority isn't just challenging the beliefs and values that a parent might instill (which typically are religious). If the parent has the authority, the parent has the authority. Period. People bitch about AZ setting their own immigration rules because the Federal Government has that authority.

I see "parental authority" and it strikes me as defining who the boss is.

Given the amount of histrionic whiners with an allergy to reality who can be found complaining about almost anything their kids are taught in school, there doesn't seem to be any problems with parental authority as you're defining it here, save only that the parents are more interested in exercising it over the education system (and by extension, every fucker else's kids) than their own children.

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Post #: 121

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 6:42:10 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Undermining parental authority isn't just challenging the beliefs and values that a parent might instill (which typically are religious).

Sure there are other ways of undermining parental authority but if you go back and look at the first half of the undermining parental authority sentence it turns out that belief challenging is exactly what they're talking about.
Now you may have yourself convinced that just means morality but you know perfectly well I disagree. I've certainly pointed out the indoctrination against biology, geology, cosmology, history and so forth to you before.
My actual position is that I'm horrified by parents brain washing their children to deny observable reality and the Texas GOP doing it's part to prevent said children from learning to think well enough to deprogram themselves. A position which I've spent several threads explaining to you.
So when you pretend that my issue is parent teaching their children about right and wrong, well your pants are on fire.

Ah, but you're not following at all. The issue the Texas GOP is taking is about not challenging the parental responsibility to instill right and wrong, moral values.

And, just so we're clear on something, just because it spewed from your mouth, does not mean that it is true, valid, or explained.

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Post #: 122

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 6:53:10 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Undermining parental authority isn't just challenging the beliefs and values that a parent might instill (which typically are religious). If the parent has the authority, the parent has the authority. Period. People bitch about AZ setting their own immigration rules because the Federal Government has that authority.
I see "parental authority" and it strikes me as defining who the boss is.

Given the amount of histrionic whiners with an allergy to reality who can be found complaining about almost anything their kids are taught in school, there doesn't seem to be any problems with parental authority as you're defining it here, save only that the parents are more interested in exercising it over the education system (and by extension, every fucker else's kids) than their own children.

My biggest complaint is that parents don't exercise their responsibility to be parents. They put the onus on the school district to do the parenting, in addition to the teaching. In your response, you even state something similar. As much as I would prefer to have everyone rear their children in the way I see best, I know it's not my responsibility to raise their kids, not is it my authority to choose for their kids.

IMO, school is for the education, not for a moral code, and to provide the opportunity for socializing of the kids (so they can learn to get along with others).

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Help for the truly needy
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Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Post #: 123

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 10:21:22 AM

Moonhead

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Exactly.
Anybody who thinks that raising their kids is anybody's responsibility other than their own isn't competent to have any kids in the first place.

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Post #: 124

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 10:30:54 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Exactly.
Anybody who thinks that raising their kids is anybody's responsibility other than their own isn't competent to have any kids in the first place.

. . . Though the 'their' in that sentence applies as much to society at large as it does to kids' parents, as far as I'm concerned.

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Post #: 125

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 11:15:59 AM

Moonhead

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No it doesn't. Society isn't solely composed of parents who shouldn't be trusted to look after a tank of goldfish over a weekend.
The sort of fuckwits who expect society at large to alter itself so that little Britney or Tupac doesn't ever see tits or violence on the television or hear cussing on the radio are most of the problem, and that's even before they start insisting that their Pastor says that there's no such thing as evolution and they'll sue the school board if they don't shut up about that...
If they're that stupid they don't have any business breeding in the first place, frankly.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 126

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 11:51:04 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No it doesn't. Society isn't solely composed of parents who shouldn't be trusted to look after a tank of goldfish over a weekend.
The sort of fuckwits who expect society at large to alter itself so that little Britney or Tupac doesn't ever see tits or violence on the television or hear cussing on the radio are most of the problem, and that's even before they start insisting that their Pastor says that there's no such thing as evolution and they'll sue the school board if they don't shut up about that...
If they're that stupid they don't have any business breeding in the first place, frankly.

Either you've misinterpreted me, or I've misinterpreted you. Too much effort to work it out. Whatever.

My point of view is that society has rights and responsibilities regarding any child as well as the parents. Therefore society has an onus on it to keep to a reasonable level the amounts of horseshit parents (*especially* the more fuckwitted ones) feed to their children.

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Post #: 127

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 12:47:18 PM

Moonhead

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Absolutely, but so long as they stick to feeding their own kids horseshit, rather than expecting everybody else to accomodate their kids by adopting the same diet plan for everybody else's children, I'm more inclined to leave them to it. A parenting exam (and an enforced sterilisation for those who fail) would be a more helpful move than trying to take an interventionist line to fuckwits who are teaching their kids fuckwittery, and about as likely to be allowed to happen by hysterical cretins with a bee in their bonnet about government powers designed to stop them acting like cunts.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 128

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 7:54:39 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
And, just so we're clear on something, just because it spewed from your mouth, does not mean that it is true, valid, or explained.

Absolutely true. However, when it's "spewed from my mouth" that does mean it's my position and you don't get to ignore what's actually been "spewed from my mouth" and make up a different position for me.

You don't get to do that for Rick Santorum or the Texas GOP either by the way.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/18/2013 7:56:56 PM >

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Post #: 129

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 7:57:38 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Ah, but you're not following at all. The issue the Texas GOP is taking is about not challenging the parental responsibility to instill right and wrong, moral values.

Here's the thing, the terms morality, right and wrong appear absolutely nowhere in the section. Those words don't even show up in the interview that you cited. An interview by the way which lists "economic policy" as an example. So unless you've once again received a secret hand wave to let you know that "economic policy" really means morality your flat out wrong.

Furthermore to get some context as to the sort of thing they don't want undermined I can glance above the anti critical thinking section to the anti science section:

"Controversial Theories – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of all sides of scientific theories. We believe theories such as life origins and environmental change should be taught as challengeable scientific theories subject to change as new data is produced. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind."

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/18/2013 8:07:07 PM >

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Post #: 130

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 9:01:16 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Yes, there is everything wrong with objectivism. It is more simply described as total selfishness. It has led to such absurd notions as getting rid of the social safety net in order to reduce the tax burden. As a mater of fact it is the underlying rot in the conservative movement that has destroyed it as an intellectual force and is what is driving the entire conservative movement out of the political mainstream. In simple terms the most effective weapon ever deployed by the Soviets in their efforts to destroy us as a nation and an ideal is Ayn Rand.

It is a matter of interpretation what objectivism means. It has to do with individual vs the state issue. I can understand leftist hate the notion of individual initiative and power. For them somehow collective mind makes things happen. I would argue, for young people coming in touch with today's environment, understanding the reality and their place in it is very important. They should reject the dystopian national security corporate police state that is being built for them. Without support the effort can not succeed.

Your understanding of the Left is as simplistic as your "logic".

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Post #: 131

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/18/2013 10:11:12 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

the anti science section:

"Controversial Theories – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of all sides of scientific theories. We believe theories such as life origins and environmental change should be taught as challengeable scientific theories subject to change as new data is produced. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind."

I see where they're going, and I think it's wrong-headed. But it's wrong-headed for a different reason. A couple of examples:

We know that species change, that existing characteristics (or new ones) can confer adaptive advantage under environmental pressures, and we have the fossil record to prove that this has been happening for a very long time. Scientists "think" that all life arose from a common ancestor, but there is no hard evidence for that. Life could just as well have arisen in different places under different conditions. Scientists "think" life arose from fortuitous combinations of chemicals, but there is no hard evidence for that being a fact either.

We know that light from the stars is red-shifted, and that the red-shift increases with distance. Interpreting this as a Doppler effect is what gave us the Big Bang theory. But there is also a catalogue of objects with anomalous red-shifts that don't fit into the scheme. Too, a "big bang" would not give rise to a universe that is homogeneous at large scales. But that is what we in fact observe. So scientists "think" there was period of supraluminal inflation before the universe settled down into something like what we know.

Why? Because if the Big Bang theory is true, then inflation (or something very much like it) must have occurred. But hey, that's no different in kind from reasoning that "if" the Bible is literally true, "then" the Earth must be only 6,000 years old. Both of these premises are faced with conflicting evidence, and what scientists happen to "think" isn't science. This stuff belongs in a philosophy class on Origins. So the Creationists do have a point in a way. It's just not the one they "think" they have.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/18/2013 11:03:27 PM >

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Post #: 132

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 3:24:17 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Ah, but you're not following at all. The issue the Texas GOP is taking is about not challenging the parental responsibility to instill right and wrong, moral values.

Here's the thing, the terms morality, right and wrong appear absolutely nowhere in the section. Those words don't even show up in the interview that you cited. An interview by the way which lists "economic policy" as an example. So unless you've once again received a secret hand wave to let you know that "economic policy" really means morality your flat out wrong.
Furthermore to get some context as to the sort of thing they don't want undermined I can glance above the anti critical thinking section to the anti science section:
"Controversial Theories – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of all sides of scientific theories. We believe theories such as life origins and environmental change should be taught as challengeable scientific theories subject to change as new data is produced. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind."

Objective teaching won't lead to critical thinking skills? Really? So, presenting both sides of an argument and then debating over which has more support won't lead to any critical thinking? Is that what you're saying?

Thank Goodness people challenge scientific theories, Laws, etc. How else do we learn or extend the already "settled?" Don't we change yet another variable, controlling for the others and see what happens? Isn't that yet another way to challenge something? You seem to be saying that it has to be taught that "Evolution is right" and not let any other theories any time at all. How that increases critical thinking, I don't know. I take "critical thinking" as the ability to take all aspects of "something" and then work through it to find the correct answer, or, at least, what one believes is the correct answer. As our knowledge of science grows, we are allowed to "fix" those things that we didn't have quite correct before. Thankfully, because the Earth is neither flat, nor is it the center of the Universe, nor does leeching provide the best cure, though it can remove all worry over any particular affliction.

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Post #: 133

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 7:00:11 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You seem to be saying that it has to be taught that "Evolution is right" and not let any other theories any time at all.

There are no competing scientific theories to Evolution. Zip, zero, zilch, absolutely none. Evolution is a fact.

Lying to children about that and filling their heads with fraudulent propaganda does not promote critical thinking.

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Post #: 134

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 10:13:15 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You seem to be saying that it has to be taught that "Evolution is right" and not let any other theories any time at all.

There are no competing scientific theories to Evolution. Zip, zero, zilch, absolutely none. Evolution is a fact.
Lying to children about that and filling their heads with fraudulent propaganda does not promote critical thinking.

So, every step of Evolution can be proven, eh?

And, while we're at it, who says this is limited to Evolution?

Are you disagreeing that presenting both sides of an issue and debating the merits/lacks of each isn't going to promote critical thinking? And, if Evolution or AGW is, in fact, truth and proven science, then how is it that an objective presentation of the cases for an against won't result in the support of Evolution or AGW?

Presenting the opposing argument isn't lying. It's the opposing argument. If it is fallacious, it doesn't make it any less of the opposing argument.

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Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Post #: 135

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 10:14:58 AM

mnottertail

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Can you say that every word in Genesis is proven true? Otherwise, what does the non-sequiturs and the red herrings have to do with intelligence, or the parting of red seas?

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Post #: 136

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 10:17:52 AM

mnottertail

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Anyway, we have ample real world evidence that Ayn Rand is pure toilet swill. Fuckin waste of time to mention it even in passing in a school.

I don't think we should be instilling industrial terrorism in the minds of our youth, either; comes to that.

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Post #: 137

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 10:20:14 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Objective teaching won't lead to critical thinking skills? Really? So, presenting both sides of an argument and then debating over which has more support won't lead to any critical thinking? Is that what you're saying?

The term debate also appears nowhere, are you the only one not noticing this proclivity for pulling other peoples positions out of thin air?

Furthermore debates involve belief challenging, something which the Texas GOP has explicitly stated they are opposed to.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 138

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 10:27:43 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Can you say that every word in Genesis is proven true? Otherwise, what does the non-sequiturs and the red herrings have to do with intelligence, or the parting of red seas?

quote:

Anyway, we have ample real world evidence that Ayn Rand is pure toilet swill. Fuckin waste of time to mention it even in passing in a school.
I don't think we should be instilling industrial terrorism in the minds of our youth, either; comes to that.

I can not say that every word in Genesis (or any other book of the Bible) is proven true. And, I did not claim that, either. But, nice non-argument.

If you have read my posts in this thread, you'll notice that I didn't support the Bill. For one, I didn't think it was quite academically right to require reading a particular book and passage of a test on it for graduation, and I didn't agree that reading Atlas Shrugged was a good idea, either. The only way I could support a bill requiring reading of a book and passage of a test being important would be if that book was The Federalist Papers and was part of (or the entirety) a class.

But, do go on spouting nonsense. Arguing with me over something we agree on, even if we don't agree on the reasoning, is silly. But, go at it, if you want.

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A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Post #: 139

RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/19/2013 10:32:48 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Objective teaching won't lead to critical thinking skills? Really? So, presenting both sides of an argument and then debating over which has more support won't lead to any critical thinking? Is that what you're saying?

The term debate also appears nowhere, are you the only one not noticing this proclivity for pulling other peoples positions out of thin air?
Furthermore debates involve belief challenging, something which the Texas GOP has explicitly stated they are opposed to.

Boy, you seem to not be using any critical thinking there. How is it that if both sides of an argument are presented and the student is to come up with decision as to what is true or now without any form of debate or discussion?

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 140

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