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RE: Home Defence - 2/12/2013 11:33:26 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJohnSteed

Thinking of getting a pump Action Shotgun for home defense. I do not plan on going hunting with the thing, I just need something to blow a hole through someone if they come in the house.

Anyone have any suggestions on make or model? price range I should look at?

Shotgun is a good choice.


Mossburg makes a very simple, easy to load 12 ga.



OO buckshot is good.No need for magnum loads.It`ll be quite enough with regular shells.


Lock it up when you leave the house.

So does new England arms, I thing Remengton distributs thwm now.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/13/2013 2:37:09 PM   
WyattC


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I don't know if they are still available, but seems I saw magazine extension tubes available some years back that increase the shell carrying capacity of the Remington 1100. 00 buck is good; I like number 1 buck in 12 gauge. Number 1 buck has more pellets than 00. Just a personal preference.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/13/2013 2:38:27 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyattC

I don't know if they are still available, but seems I saw magazine extension tubes available some years back that increase the shell carrying capacity of the Remington 1100.


There are mag tube extensions available for nearly all pump/autoloading shotguns.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/13/2013 2:50:08 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
There are mag tube extensions available for nearly all pump/autoloading shotguns.


No there aren't, Steff. Not good ones, anyway. Most of them aren't properly flanged and German-fluted. I haven't even seen any well-shrimmed extensions recently.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/13/2013 4:10:43 PM   
Hillwilliam


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For shotguns at close range.

My old dive buddy from the late 70's/early 80's served in an area called "The Delta" and was in the navy but was referred to as a Marine Mammal (SEAL)
He once told me that "After extensive field testing" (we can imagine what that was) he preferred Magnum #2 loads for close in work. That would be probably be defined as 5 meters and less.

I still carry Hi Brass #2 in my shotgun at the house. He was a trained professional. I'm just trying to stay alive.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/13/2013 9:36:21 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

No there aren't, Steff. Not good ones, anyway.

You're mistaken.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/14/2013 5:46:33 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

No there aren't, Steff. Not good ones, anyway.

You're mistaken.


Probably. As I've often said, I don't know the first thing about guns.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/14/2013 11:56:49 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Probably. As I've often said, I don't know the first thing about guns.

Clearly.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 3:37:56 AM   
PeonForHer


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Not that clearly. It worked on you.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 3:46:34 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Not that clearly. It worked on you.

It didn't look to me like it worked.

K.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 4:04:29 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It didn't look to me like it worked.



You're mistaken.




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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 4:10:21 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It didn't look to me like it worked.


You're mistaken.

Oh shit, you're right. Touché

K.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 7:35:07 AM   
tommonymous


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Ha! Nice work PeonForHer! I read that and thought, "German-fluting? Did he mean well-"shimmed"? What the fu-ohhhh..."

I've been waiting patiently, and this made my day.

Kirata, I'm sorry for laughing, and I truly hope I've caused no offense.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 7:40:56 AM   
Muttling


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I didn't want to join in a debate and mostly been listening. The conversation has been quite accurate. Here's a summary with a little addition from my knowledge on the subject (which I have taught self defense and concealed carry classes.)

The OP said he's in a castle law state, that's very cool but understand that castle law is a general term and the details vary from state to state so you must make absolutely certain to understand the laws of your state if you are going to have a self defense firearm at ANY time. In Tennessee, it pretty straight forward.......once they make unlawful entry into your home (not come onto your property or try to steal your car from your driveway or even try to break down the door......once they actually make entry) you are presumed to be in fear for your life and can use lethal force to eliminate the threat. That doesn't say you can kill them. That only says that it is reasonable for you to fear for your life and you can shoot without giving a warning to neutralize the fear. If police show up and you say "I killed the mother fucker for coming into my house" it's going to go very badly for you. If you say "I was in fear for my life so I had to shoot him" its different. If you're smart, you'll say "My weapon is over there and I do not wish to answer any further questions until I speak with my attorney." Regardless of what the details are or what you say......you can COUNT on a trip to jail, you can COUNT on a wrongful death civil court law suit, and you can COUNT on some form of criminal court proceedings.

As for weapons of choice, handguns are easily concealed but not the weapon of choice when it comes time to act unless the attacker is directly on you when you decide to act. Over penetration has been brought up frequently and this is an issue for most handgun cartridges (an issue that can be addressed with frangible ammunition, but still an issue.) By over penetration, I mean what does the bullet or shot do after hitting the target or a wall? Does it keep going and potentially hit an unintended target? You will be held criminally and civilly responsible for every round you send down range.

There is no better close quarters combat weapon than a short barrel shotgun. In the U.S., the minimum legal barrel length is 24 inches and that is what should be selected. (Don't take it on a hunting trip to Mexico or you will be arrested for possession of a sawed off shotgun as they require 25 inches.) The pump is nice as it's easier to clear a jam, less likely to jam, and has severe intimidation factor from the noise of cycling the chamber. Remember, you may not be required to give warning before you shoot but ANY shooting is going to be a major legal issue costing a LOT of time and money even if your shooting is justified and you are found to completely in the right. A nice "chunk chunk" noise followed by an intruder running away will always go better for you.

As for size and cartridge selection, it has been mentioned that one should avoid magnum cartridges and that a 20 gauge is better than a 12 gauge. What hasn't been mentioned is why. Magnums are much louder, have much larger flash, and give heavier recoil. All of these things are major issues for speed and accuracy of a second shot. The noise and flash can be monster issues when shooting in doors as a 12 gauge with magnum shells is like a flash bang grenade in addition to the shot coming out of the barrel and it effects everyone in the room (including the defender shooting the shotgun.) Stepping down from a 12 to a 20 is similar to comparing a magnum to a regular cartridge, the 20 is easier to control with less noise and flash while still having a lot of stopping power. I run a 12 for my home weapon, but I've grown up handling firearms and have a lot of training so I feel better prepared to cope with issues from a 12. I hunt with magnums (especially when hunting turkey) but I don't run magnums for self defense as they really do have a lot of impact on the speed and accuracy of my second shot.

Speaking of stopping power, there is the last item....shot selection. Double ought buck or OO buck is the only way to go for 12 gauge and no. 3 shot is what you want for 20 gauges. Slugs are effective but have monster over penetration issues unless you buy frangible when defeats the purpose of a slug. Slugs are meant to have a lot of penetration along with the OMG hitting power of a shotgun. OO buck fires several 9mm (e.g. .38 caliber) balls at the target. Getting hit by 1 shot of 00 buck from a 12 gauge is like getting hit 7 times by a 9mm as it fires 7 balls that are 9mm in diameter. The 20 gauge barrel is too small for 00 buck so you go with No. 3 which fires 20 balls that are .14 caliber. Neither shot size is likely to go through the wall in a house or exit a human body so the risk of hitting someone else after you hit your intended target is lower than the risk with a pistol cartridge.......however, the risk is ALWAYS there.

I hope this helps. For more complete information, get thee to a gun range and take some classes. Firearm ownership is a right, but it is also a responsibility and you simply can't do it well without good training.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 8:02:27 AM   
Just0Plain0Mike


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Hey Muttling

Per the BATF, shotguns have to have an 18" barrel, and a minimum over-all length of 26". A 24" barrel on a shotgun isn't a home defense gun, it's for shooting skeet or birds. Other then that, very good write up.

The only other thing I'd add, there's another reason not to use magnum rounds. Prosecutors and Juries hate anything that sounds over-the-top. You have to defend yourself and you're loaded with magnum ammo, you make your case that much tougher.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 8:09:07 AM   
Powergamz1


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Minor quibble.... The minimum barrel length is 18", and there is no place in America where a warning is required (i.e. someone is attacking you, and you shoot them without yelling 'Halt!' or firing a shot in the air).

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 8:24:37 AM   
tommonymous


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Muttling, thanks for the post. Lots of very good information. But, could you please explain this:

quote:

ORIGINAL muttling
OO buck fires several 9mm (e.g. .38 caliber) balls at the target. Getting hit by 1 shot of 00 buck from a 12 gauge is like getting hit 7 times by a 9mm as it fires 7 balls that are 9mm in diameter. The 20 gauge barrel is too small for 00 buck so you go with No. 3 which fires 20 balls that are .14 caliber. Neither shot size is likely to go through the wall in a house...



Bullets fired from a 9mm pistol easily penetrate multiple sheetrock walls, and only move about 30% faster (very roughly) than an average shotgun load. I have a hard time with the idea that OO buckshot won't penetrate a wall. Also, readers should keep in mind that a miss or partial hit allows for multiple 9mm projectiles to pass the intended target and eventually find an unintended target with much more force-per-pellet than birdshot.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 8:24:49 AM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Minor quibble.... The minimum barrel length is 18", and there is no place in America where a warning is required (i.e. someone is attacking you, and you shoot them without yelling 'Halt!' or firing a shot in the air).



The warning thing is true....kind of sort of. I've never heard of a requirement for a verbal warning, but many states used to have a requirement to retreat.


To the best of my knowledge, all states have now done away with the requirement to retreat laws but it wasn't until about 10 years ago. In the not so distant past, some states required that you make an attempt to get away from your attacker (even if that person was in your home and you were cornered in your bedroom) before you could use lethal force.

About 20 years ago, a woman was charged with 1st degree murder for killing an intruder who entered her bedroom. She had no where to flee to so she shot and the DA went after her for failing to retreat. She was found not guilty at trial, but it still went past the hearing and grand jury phases. Think of all the legal costs, stress, and more she went through for about 2 years trying to clear up a shooting that was clearly justified.......all because she was cornered but the law required her to retreat before shooting. Now think if she had been in her kitchen instead of her bedroom when she shot, she could have been found guilty.

That's why I say, be sure you know the laws of your state. In Tennessee, its simple in our home. If I'm carrying on the street (which I have a permit to do so) its a LOT more complicated as to when I can even flash my side arm much less point it at someone..........shooting it for ANY reason will be an automatic trip to jail and a lot of legal issues.

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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 8:39:00 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tommonymous

Muttling, thanks for the post. Lots of very good information. But, could you please explain this:

quote:

ORIGINAL muttling
OO buck fires several 9mm (e.g. .38 caliber) balls at the target. Getting hit by 1 shot of 00 buck from a 12 gauge is like getting hit 7 times by a 9mm as it fires 7 balls that are 9mm in diameter. The 20 gauge barrel is too small for 00 buck so you go with No. 3 which fires 20 balls that are .14 caliber. Neither shot size is likely to go through the wall in a house...



Bullets fired from a 9mm pistol easily penetrate multiple sheetrock walls, and only move about 30% faster (very roughly) than an average shotgun load. I have a hard time with the idea that OO buckshot won't penetrate a wall. Also, readers should keep in mind that a miss or partial hit allows for multiple 9mm projectiles to pass the intended target and eventually find an unintended target with much more force-per-pellet than birdshot.


They are lead and splatter, they are not jacketed.  It will penetrate a wall, depending on how far you are away.



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RE: Home Defence - 2/15/2013 8:45:10 AM   
Muttling


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I was speaking in generalities on penetration. Buck shot does not penetrate nearly as well as a 9mm. It's slower, more poorly formed, and not spinning for balance. I have seen it penetrate 2 layers of sheetrock and I have seen it fail to penetrate two layers.

Thus the reason that I used the wording "likely" and said that there is "ALWAYS a risk." I didn't speak in absolutes, please don't read it that way.

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