quote:

ORIGINAL: tommonymous

Thanks for the reply, Muttling. I knew about the slower part. I didn't think about buckshot being softer, poorly-formed, and not rotating.

Also, Minnesota DOES have a retreat law. So, all you other 'Sotans, if you have any chance to run from the threat, you are legally required to do so. As has been stated previously, know the laws for YOUR state. Mine are likely different...

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ORIGINAL: tommonymous

Muttling, thanks for the post. Lots of very good information. But, could you please explain this:

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ORIGINAL muttling
OO buck fires several 9mm (e.g. .38 caliber) balls at the target. Getting hit by 1 shot of 00 buck from a 12 gauge is like getting hit 7 times by a 9mm as it fires 7 balls that are 9mm in diameter. The 20 gauge barrel is too small for 00 buck so you go with No. 3 which fires 20 balls that are .14 caliber. Neither shot size is likely to go through the wall in a house...

Bullets fired from a 9mm pistol easily penetrate multiple sheetrock walls, and only move about 30% faster (very roughly) than an average shotgun load. I have a hard time with the idea that OO buckshot won't penetrate a wall. Also, readers should keep in mind that a miss or partial hit allows for multiple 9mm projectiles to pass the intended target and eventually find an unintended target with much more force-per-pellet than birdshot.

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ORIGINAL: Muttling

I didn't want to join in a debate and mostly been listening. The conversation has been quite accurate. Here's a summary with a little addition from my knowledge on the subject (which I have taught self defense and concealed carry classes.)

The OP said he's in a castle law state, that's very cool but understand that castle law is a general term and the details vary from state to state so you must make absolutely certain to understand the laws of your state if you are going to have a self defense firearm at ANY time. In Tennessee, it pretty straight forward.......once they make unlawful entry into your home (not come onto your property or try to steal your car from your driveway or even try to break down the door......once they actually make entry) you are presumed to be in fear for your life and can use lethal force to eliminate the threat. That doesn't say you can kill them. That only says that it is reasonable for you to fear for your life and you can shoot without giving a warning to neutralize the fear. If police show up and you say "I killed the mother fucker for coming into my house" it's going to go very badly for you. If you say "I was in fear for my life so I had to shoot him" its different. If you're smart, you'll say "My weapon is over there and I do not wish to answer any further questions until I speak with my attorney." Regardless of what the details are or what you say......you can COUNT on a trip to jail, you can COUNT on a wrongful death civil court law suit, and you can COUNT on some form of criminal court proceedings.

As for weapons of choice, handguns are easily concealed but not the weapon of choice when it comes time to act unless the attacker is directly on you when you decide to act. Over penetration has been brought up frequently and this is an issue for most handgun cartridges (an issue that can be addressed with frangible ammunition, but still an issue.) By over penetration, I mean what does the bullet or shot do after hitting the target or a wall? Does it keep going and potentially hit an unintended target? You will be held criminally and civilly responsible for every round you send down range.

There is no better close quarters combat weapon than a short barrel shotgun. In the U.S., the minimum legal barrel length is 24 inches and that is what should be selected. (Don't take it on a hunting trip to Mexico or you will be arrested for possession of a sawed off shotgun as they require 25 inches.) The pump is nice as it's easier to clear a jam, less likely to jam, and has severe intimidation factor from the noise of cycling the chamber. Remember, you may not be required to give warning before you shoot but ANY shooting is going to be a major legal issue costing a LOT of time and money even if your shooting is justified and you are found to completely in the right. A nice "chunk chunk" noise followed by an intruder running away will always go better for you.

As for size and cartridge selection, it has been mentioned that one should avoid magnum cartridges and that a 20 gauge is better than a 12 gauge. What hasn't been mentioned is why. Magnums are much louder, have much larger flash, and give heavier recoil. All of these things are major issues for speed and accuracy of a second shot. The noise and flash can be monster issues when shooting in doors as a 12 gauge with magnum shells is like a flash bang grenade in addition to the shot coming out of the barrel and it effects everyone in the room (including the defender shooting the shotgun.) Stepping down from a 12 to a 20 is similar to comparing a magnum to a regular cartridge, the 20 is easier to control with less noise and flash while still having a lot of stopping power. I run a 12 for my home weapon, but I've grown up handling firearms and have a lot of training so I feel better prepared to cope with issues from a 12. I hunt with magnums (especially when hunting turkey) but I don't run magnums for self defense as they really do have a lot of impact on the speed and accuracy of my second shot.

Speaking of stopping power, there is the last item....shot selection. Double ought buck or OO buck is the only way to go for 12 gauge and no. 3 shot is what you want for 20 gauges. Slugs are effective but have monster over penetration issues unless you buy frangible when defeats the purpose of a slug. Slugs are meant to have a lot of penetration along with the OMG hitting power of a shotgun. OO buck fires several 9mm (e.g. .38 caliber) balls at the target. Getting hit by 1 shot of 00 buck from a 12 gauge is like getting hit 7 times by a 9mm as it fires 7 balls that are 9mm in diameter. The 20 gauge barrel is too small for 00 buck so you go with No. 3 which fires 20 balls that are .14 caliber. Neither shot size is likely to go through the wall in a house or exit a human body so the risk of hitting someone else after you hit your intended target is lower than the risk with a pistol cartridge.......however, the risk is ALWAYS there.

I hope this helps. For more complete information, get thee to a gun range and take some classes. Firearm ownership is a right, but it is also a responsibility and you simply can't do it well without good training.

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ORIGINAL: tommonymous

Well, just goes to show you. Don't read all the bullshit you believe on the internets.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata
The first time around, I just figured he didn't know squat about guns and got something he'd read somewhere screwed up.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Minnesota has a castle doctrine and it has been defended successfully. If I am in my home, car, travel trailer, fishhouse, I am in my castle.  I can shoot you.  

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That isn't what the castle doctrine means.

And there are states, like Minnesota where you right to defend yourself at home is restricted by some form of retreat requirement.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Minnesota has a castle doctrine and it has been defended successfully. If I am in my home, car, travel trailer, fishhouse, I am in my castle.  I can shoot you.  

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ORIGINAL: BamaD



You have to know the law in your state

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ORIGINAL: BamaD


3. 20 ga will fire 00ought but not as many pellets.

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ORIGINAL: Findlaw, section 2, paragraph 7 (watch out for the paragraph split by a quote)

The principle that there is no duty to retreat inside one's home is generally termed the “castle doctrine.”   A majority, if not an overwhelming majority, of American jurisdictions have adopted it.   See Gainer v. State, 40 Md.App. 382, 391 A.2d 856, 860-61 (1978) (stating that castle doctrine is “universally recognized exception” to duty to retreat), cert. denied (Md. Dec. 15, 1978);  cf.  State v. Walton, 615 A.2d 469, 471 (R.I.1992) (stating that a “majority of American jurisdictions” recognize the castle doctrine).   Nevertheless, the four cases discussed above, although they do not acknowledge the castle doctrine or discuss the policies for or against it, do establish a line of Minnesota authority departing from the majority position and supporting the trial court's instruction in this case.1

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ORIGINAL: Findlaw, Footnote 1

1.  Carothers cites State v. McPherson, 114 Minn. 498, 131 N.W. 645 (1911), for the proposition that Minnesota does not impose a duty to retreat within the place of abode.   But McPherson involved a co-occupant, a fellow seaman shot in the bunkroom he and the defendant shared, and discusses the issue in terms of the “retreat to the wall” doctrine, stating that defendant “was about as close to the ‘wall’ as it was possible to get.”  Id. at 500, 131 N.W. at 646.   Thus, the case is distinguishable both legally and on its facts.

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ORIGINAL: Muttling

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ORIGINAL: BamaD



You have to know the law in your state

As is obvious from the responses to my posts, I don't know everything and there's plenty of room for debate on a lot of things.


However, the above comment is the ONE thing that I am absolutely resolute on and everyone should take as the gospel.

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ORIGINAL: Muttling

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ORIGINAL: BamaD


3. 20 ga will fire 00ought but not as many pellets.

Cool, can you give me a link to the manufacturer that sells 20 gauge 00 buck shells? My daughter has a 20 for her home weapon and I would far prefer to give her those over No. 3 shot.

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ORIGINAL: MasterJohnSteed

Thinking of getting a pump Action Shotgun for home defense. I do not plan on going hunting with the thing, I just need something to blow a hole through someone if they come in the house.

Anyone have any suggestions on make or model? price range I should look at?

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


3. 20 ga will fire 00ought but not as many pellets.

Cool, can you give me a link to the manufacturer that sells 20 gauge 00 buck shells? My daughter has a 20 for her home weapon and I would far prefer to give her those over No. 3 shot.

Unfortunatly no I have not been able to get them either.
try this www.luckygunner.com/
or this ammo.net/
in looking I did fnd a site that indicated (it was a chat site so take that into account) there is a better chance of problems with 00 in a 20 than a 12