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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 10:02:33 PM   
smartsub10


Posts: 865
Joined: 4/23/2010
Status: offline 		Submission could be a good stepping stone in the process of learning about the lifestyle and figuring out where you belong in the dynamic. You feel you are a slave and that may be true.

I have no interest in slavery. None. So, for me, I can't say that slavery is my ultimate goal. If anything, I'm more of a bottom because I have a strong, dominant personality in every day life. I really can't imagine someone running my life and controlling every aspect of it. The key word is "imagine". I have yet to meet a man that I feel is totally capable of owning me and making all my decisions. Humans are fallible creatures. No one, alone, has all the right answers. I know I don't. I do know that there are many times I've been the more capable one to make an intelligent, informed decision in a relationship. Other times, it was my partner who knew better. Or, we compromised.

To me, submission isn't a part of a process to become a slave. It implies that any and all submissives haven't actually reached the ultimate level in a D/s relationship.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 10:05:21 PM   
wittynamehere


Posts: 759
Joined: 2/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
Is slavery the final goal of submission?

I imagine that depends on the person. It is for some, I know that much for certain. But for others, the goal of submission is orgasm, or excitement, or experimentation..... and the list could go on for a very long time.
I'm fairly sure that not all submission is done with slavery as the intended goal.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 10:09:26 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		If I had to aspire to slavery when I started all this I would have passed it all up.  I am not a slave nor do I wish to be one.  Gary is not a Master nor does he wish to be one.  I am a submissive and he is a Dom and we have lived 24/7 for over 7 years now.  It's worked out very well. 

"What would be the main goal of a uncollared submissive?"

I would not speak for all submissives, but my main goals when I was uncollared were to pay my bills, get to work on time, have fun, watch my grandkids grow up, and enjoy life.  I did not feel empty or lacking because I wasn't owned.  In fact, being owned was not anything I even wanted.  I had a good life without Gary.  I also enjoy the life I have with him. 

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 10:28:36 PM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		The only label I recognize as accurate, is one which a person puts on their own forehead. However since only the person wearing the label might know what this label means to themselves, I will not be sure that I understand what the label means to them without establishing trust and talking these things through at some length.
There is also the possibility that the person wearing the label does not understand the label either. They may be wearing it because someone said they should, or to attract partners they think will like that label, or because they THINK it fits them, or because "it worked last week".
No matter what power exchange level a person has had before in their life, they may find we have a different one if they connect with me. It all depends upon how our personal energies (or charismas) blend with each other.
Simple labels usually work OK for play with new partners at the dungeon of a big event. There usually is no deep connection, all involved are simply enjoying play and agreeing to have play suggested to them by people who are not connected with them.
But for anything serious, deep and lasting, the minds involved need to do some deep and honest communication.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 10:37:23 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
I always felt that submission was just a stepping stone to slavery.If theres no connection and the 2 really are seperate,then how does one know if they are either a submissive or a slave?

When you use the word steppingstone, it feels like you think slavehood is a stage beyond or above a submissives' role. Not one or the other is better, nor can they be ranked or compared. Both have equally difficult skill sets and a good submissive is as wonderful in their role as a good slave is in theirs, but they are different roles. A vanilla women prepares meals and cares for her family but that isn't the steppingstone to BDSM, submission or slavehood. They are entirely different things and it is simply a matter of what role suits you best.

A slave, contrary to common belief, does not have to be a submissive or have a submissive personality. However, they are a subordinate that surrenders control in a TPE. In my view, slavery is the only steppingstone to slavehood and perhaps the right ownership can be the the steppingstone to slavehood.

Imagine if there was such thing as a perfect M/s Master and a perfect D/s submissive . . . and we paired them. What a failure that would be. They are entirely different reward systems and both would be dissatisfied. A D/s relationship is not about the same things an M/s relationship is. Sure, there is some overlap, but hell, there is vanilla overlap too. That doesn't mean one leads to or is connected to the other.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 11:50:31 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hey DS, I don't know whether it's intentional or not but there's an implication hat slavery is somehow a "higher" calling than submission... I don't see it that way. It seems to me that they're very different things.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/17/2013 11:57:42 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I'm a slave because he owns me. I don't get to pick and choose. I don't get to say "no". I get no say...end of story.

Good grief. Of course you have a say. You can say "no" and walk away whenever you please.

These people are slaves.


Given how long you've been here, and how many times you must have see the topic of "slavery" discussed, I can't understand how you would say something this ignorant.

I doubt that very many people would fail to recognise "slavery" as you define it. But you know.... A less narrow minded person would be capable of embracing the possibility that there are many for s of slavery and enslavement.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 12:09:20 AM   
stef


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Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I doubt that very many people would fail to recognise "slavery" as you define it. But you know.... A less narrow minded person would be capable of embracing the possibility that there are many for s of slavery and enslavement.

It has nothing to do with being narrow minded, it has to do with reality. Sorry if that bursts your fantasy bubble.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 12:36:02 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

When you use the word steppingstone, it feels like you think slavehood is a stage beyond or above a submissives' role. Not one or the other is better, nor can they be ranked or compared. Both have equally difficult skill sets and a good submissive is as wonderful in their role as a good slave is in theirs, but they are different roles.


Would you expand on this statement, please? I would love some clarification.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 2:29:22 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
quote:

When you use the word steppingstone, it feels like you think slavehood is a stage beyond or above a submissives' role. Not one or the other is better, nor can they be ranked or compared. Both have equally difficult skill sets and a good submissive is as wonderful in their role as a good slave is in theirs, but they are different roles.


Would you expand on this statement, please? I would love some clarification.

He said, "I always felt that submission was just a stepping stone to slavery."

Steppingstone:
1. a stone, or one of a line of stones, in shallow water, a marshy place, or the like, that is stepped on in crossing.
2. a stone for use in mounting or ascending.
3. any means or stage of advancement or improvement: She looked on the governorship as a steppingstone to the presidency.

No matter what definition you use, steppingstone implies a stage of progress to the end. When in fact being a submissive is the end role for submissives. Seems like he feels being a submissive is like a governorship and slavery is the presidency on the same political ladder. Whereas slavehood is M/s and being a submissive is D/s... they are different arenas and do not share a common ladder of rankings. Would be like saying the sport of shot put is the stepping stone to swimming.

The slave ladder would look more like this:
"slaves in training"
"slaves that are trained"
"slaves that are well trained"
"old fart slaves that have been around the block and fully comfortable in their slavehood"

. . . nowhere on that ladder is there a submissive, therefore, being a submissive cannot be a steppingstone to slavery.



ETA: I think confusion starts when people mix up fantasy slave role play and slavehood as a lifestyle, then try to speak on the points forgetting that one is role play while the other is a lifestyle relationship role. It's like the difference between playing doctor and being a doctor. Imagine the misunderstandings someone listening to a conversation between people that play doctor and thinking that is what medicine is about. Role play is great, but you have to explain you are talking about role play not lifestyle or people will get confused. Maybe that is part of what is going on with the OP.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 2/18/2013 2:39:55 AM >

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 3:32:25 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I got the stepping stone analogy quite fine, ty.

I am more interested in how you think a slave and a sub "can not be ranked and compared." As well as some in depth clarification of how their skills sets and roles differ.

TY.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 5:30:20 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Somewhat of a fast reply.

I think I'm a little off when I hear "I was this person's slave, but they moved away". Sorry, but that's kind of crap. It's not different just because it's BDSM. A person wouldn't leave their spouse behind just because they had a new job opportunity. They may have to deal with a temporary separation. I know that one. We've done it, ourselves. I don't see it from the O/p perspective, either. I've never discarded property that I wanted to keep just because I was moving to a new location. Sure, I've decided that I would get a new couch rather than keep the old one, but I don't toss aside something that has sentimental value just because it wasn't convenient.

A couple of the submissive ladies on the thread have done a far better job than I in debunking the progression theory. A person who is a submissive doesn't necessarily want to be a slave, so by their definition of each, it's not a goal. It's not what they want.

For clip, it wasn't necessarily a goal, either. In our case, it was an evolution. For us, it was a different path. We never looked at it as something we had to achieve. I collared him as a submissive and was perfectly content in him being so. I've never been much of one to want to try to turn somebody into something else. I think that's a part of My particular mindset.

Anyway, somewhere along that time, within himself, clip came to this point that I'm going to associate with the term "internal enslavement". It was something that just kind of happened. Truthfully, I can't imagine trying to force the issue or *make* it be the outcome. I'd have lost a beautiful opportunity to watch it happen naturally if I'd have been foolish enough to try to orchestrate it.



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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 8:12:26 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ah well... There's no fantasy bubble here, indeed slavery isn't my cup of tea at all. But I've been willing to be challenged by others, and have grown as a consequence.

I used to be as ignorant of this topic and as narrow minded as you!

Looking back I can barely fucking believe it, but it's true.



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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 8:15:50 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		THat is a can of worms question! lol

It varies from person to person. Relationship to relationship. In and outside the bedroom.

Some may want to slave only in the bedroom. Some may slave outside of it too. Some may always want to keep that submissive level because its a huge deal to give total power of thoughts and action to someone else. Most people probably are not going to feel comfortable with that in the majority of relationships because it requires the ultimate in trust. You not longer have a say, and are suppose to happily do another's will EVERY TIME without question.

You may never want to be a slave for one person, but in another relationship, it becmes so solid and the master is so trustworthy and wise, you might want to go to slave status.

Imo, no submission is not always a route to slave status. People are all so different, they may never feel comfortable in that position and giving up their right to voice opinions.
I do think if you find the ultimate in trust, chemistry, compatiblity and you are a sub and feel the want to go to slave with an individual, and have that slave desire, that to me is the grandest of relationships, but again just my opinion and thoughts.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 8:42:37 AM   
OsideGirl


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Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I doubt that very many people would fail to recognise "slavery" as you define it. But you know.... A less narrow minded person would be capable of embracing the possibility that there are many for s of slavery and enslavement.


Personally, I agree with Stef. My personal view is that what we do is far cry from slavery. I accept that others like and use the term, but I don't agree with it.


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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 10:18:11 AM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I doubt that very many people would fail to recognise "slavery" as you define it. But you know.... A less narrow minded person would be capable of embracing the possibility that there are many for s of slavery and enslavement.


Personally, I agree with Stef. My personal view is that what we do is far cry from slavery. I accept that others like and use the term, but I don't agree with it.


The way you’ve described your marriage on the forums sounds as TPE as it gets, and it’s lasted a very long time, but you are aware that you are free to leave it at any time you choose. I don’t see how that freedom meshes with the concept of slavery.

As a newbie watching this discussion, what strikes me the most is how badly some people NEED to believe themselves to be enslaved. I am continuing to follow the discussion to learn why. Is it not enough to choose of one’s own free will to give oneself to another, without abdicating our responsibility for that choice by calling it enslavement?

I like SimplyMichael’s signature line: “great slaves are made by great relationships”. A great relationship is the kind of "enslavement" that sounds best to me.
YMMV


< Message edited by Spiritedsub2 -- 2/18/2013 10:35:54 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 10:33:38 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Ah well... There's no fantasy bubble here, indeed slavery isn't my cup of tea at all. But I've been willing to be challenged by others, and have grown as a consequence.

I used to be as ignorant of this topic and as narrow minded as you!

Looking back I can barely fucking believe it, but it's true.

You resort to namecalling because someone has a different opinion on a topic and I'm the one whose narrow minded? That's absolutely precious.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 10:49:58 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		On do point out the name calling, please.

You are certainly ignorant of the complexities of the topic.

And your churlish "fantasy bubble" retort is the classic response of a narrow mind.

If you don't know better then I'd urge you to open up your mind.

If you have your head so far up your arse that you can't see beyond your own ignorance then I'd urge you to get a thicker skin.



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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 10:53:43 AM   
LoveSlider


Posts: 52
Joined: 8/22/2010
Status: offline 		I don't want, need or have a slave.

Until the point when somebody crops up who I would want or need that much day to day personal involvement with then the goal is very simple... 2 like minded (or even opposite minded, if you will) people get together, hopefully get on with each other like a house on fire, some time later both parties have both got their rocks off. Job's a good un! Submission is not even necessary, never mind slavery, a good fight is all the more fun :)

To make the assumption that it is all about some progression to a "higher level" of master/slave type relationships is a little bit ignorant of the situations of a lot of other people out there.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/18/2013 10:58:12 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		It's not being ignorant or narrow-minded to believe differently from you, but thanks anyway for so eloquently proving my point.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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