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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 10:38:18 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		That's very well said, njlauren.

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(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 10:48:57 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

11977 and 19452 posts. Speaks for itself.

I am entitled to my own opinion. Just as you are yours. Obviously...

lucinda

You aren't going to get much sympathy on that, because your post, while it is a matter of opinion, also quite frankly is insulting, it is assuming that someone who sees themselves/is a lifestyle slave, is someone lacking self worth, a mindless bundle of neuroses and so forth. It is degrading, and quite frankly, is false because it can be proven to be so (among other things, I suggest you talk to BD/SM aware psych professionals, they would laugh you out of their office for saying something like that). It is like the morons who say gay men are gay because they had overbearing mothers and non existent fathers, that lesbians are lesbians because they were abused, that anyone into BD/SM is repeating trauma they suffered as a child, and while those are all opinions, none of them hold up against facts.

Have I met slaves and lifestyle subs I wondered about? Yep, I don't doubt they exist. Friend of mine is a pro dominant and lifestyle M, and she would talk about people she met like that, whom she would never, ever want to be their M, for the simple fact she said they were doing this for the wrong reasons....plus she said, quite frankly, there wasn't a lot to be gained, for her, of having someone submitting or being their slave, who was doing so, not out of will, but to correct something lacking in themselves. One of the things she said always stuck with me, she said that the person she would want to submit or give themselves up in slavery to her, would have to be a person who attracted her as a woman and person (whether male or female, she was bi), she said that it was a strong, self confident person she would be attracted to, and when they gave her the gift of turning themselves over to her, that meant so much. She also said she had helped those falling into said definition, rather then take them on as subs or slaves, got them help to find themselves and so forth.

What you are describing, quite frankly, as slavery I would call unhealthy and abusive, it is the erstwhile dominant taking advantage of someone without defenses, it to me would be analogous to why we have statutory rape laws for adults who have sex with kids, it is because kids or a psychologically damaged person cannot effectively say no.

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 11:07:25 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

Lucinda


Where in the hell did you come up with this?  I have been a collared submissive for 7 years and I guess you could call that a "period of time."  This means for we've worked at our dynamic 7 straight years, 24/7 as we are seldom apart.  Yes, we have had a great sexual relationship, however, our sex life is very vanilla and without kink.  Our D/s relationship is not done for sexual purposes.  Our D/s relationship is done for the power exchange.  He's the boss, simple.  My job is to make his life easier and better than it would be without me. 

Just tell me, how can sleeping, eating, and staying in his hospital  ICU room for 3 weeks so that I am there if he needs me for anything be sexual?  As to taking direction well, well he'd be dead if I always did that.  I know more than he does when he needs to head to the ER and I will get him there by hook or by crook, because it's my job to make sure he gets the care he needs.  And you call that merely a pleasurable sexual relationship?  Your head is up you know where. 


Thanks, peppermint, brilliantly written, absolutely brilliant. Among other things, what it leaves out is that even in a slave relationship, their is an unwritten rule IMO, that if the M/D's life is at stake, the whole dynamic of power isn't there per se, because ultimately, subs/slaves have a perspective their M/D mat not about himself. If I was with a D or M that was having signs of obvious cardiac stress, but they told me they didn't want to go to the hospital or refused me the right to call 9/11, I would do everything up and until including hitting them over the head to knock them out to take them to help (obviously, knocking someone out with heart symptoms isn't too bright...).

There is also something else that is being left out, and that is that many (not all, by far, but many) D/s,M/s relationships are romantic and emotional ones, not just service ones. Yep, I have know married women who had an outside dominant they were collared to, but it was not a 'romantic' one, it was strictly the power relationship and the play/punishment, whatever you call it, the power in a sense was the relationship. But many, as I was/will be, are also romantically linked to our M's/D's,s's, sl's......it would be like saying that we get married or partner up strictly because of sex, being turned on, and a relationship based only on sex generally doesn't last to that point.

Are their subs who get off sexually on submitting (or subs who do so for a mixture of that and other things)? Sure, but putting it as the definition is idiotic. Among other things, a sub who gets off on it for the sexual thrill is highly unlikely to take it into a 'full' D/s power exchange thing, they more likely are going to be a sub in the bedroom, but not lifestyle, any more then a crossdresser who gets turned on by cross dressing once they have, um, gotten their jollies off, is going to want to take hormones and transition. In a sense, what happens after the sexual tension is released defines both. A collared sub in a D/s gets off on the play, gets aroused submitting in the bedroom, but when they are done, they are still sub to their D/M; put it this way, when a 'play sub' is done, they would not feel embarassed by asking their D in the scene to get them something to drink, help them get cleaned up, etc, whereas a "lifestyle' s's first thoughts might be "okay, I need to see if my D needs something to drink, cleaning up, etc" or otherwise will first thing of them (and please, this is an example, every relationship is different, I know a lifestyle D/s couple where the wife is the sub, they are 24/7 lifestyle, he is the boss, where the husband after play loves to take care of her,he won't let her do anything.....but that is his wish. Lucky gal, he is a hunk and she is fucking gorgeous, hate the bitch:)...otherwise, though, their dynamic is he is the boss, she serves him.......).

Some people might fit that bill, but a lot do not.

(in reply to peppermint)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 11:21:11 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Thats why I like you, you are in touch with roots. I was kind of floored when D/s got tossed into the mix.



This confuses me, a bit. Surely you're not suggesting that D/s has no place, here? BDSM as a "lifestyle"? I've always maintained that it would be very difficult for bottoms to drive while their wrists are cuffed to their ankles so "24/7 BDSM" is a very difficult goal to reach.

I have always believed that without D/s the BDSM stuff might work but it would be almost as empty as bar-hopping looking for bedmates; sure, the sex is okay but where's the substance? Where's the emotional entanglement; the "raison d'etre"?

I have been told (by people who claim to be Old Guard types) that the original acronym was, in fact: BDDsSM. I don't know for sure about that but I do know that it is VERY difficult to have BDSM without some form of D/s. In fact, I believe that D/s is the umbrella under which BDSM resides.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


I disagree strongly. To you, BD/SM might be empty, like bar hopping for sex, but that is you, you obviously crave more of a 'relationship' bd/sm, where there is a power dynamic, and that is cool. But for example, a married couple can have hot and heavy BD/SM stuff in the bedroom, and otherwise be that vanilla couple down the street, they love each other, cherish each other, but love BD/SM in the bounds of the bedroom (top and bottom play, D/s, doesn't matter). The only power arrangement they have, if they do have one (they could both be switches, who take turns topping and bottoming, who don't care about submitting at all). is the 'normal' one in many marriages, as in "honey, take out the garbage", "Honey, the cat needs to get fixed", "Honey, you look at the bimbo next door in her bikini one more time, and I'll take you to get fixed" *lol*.

D/s cannot be the overarching thing because a lot of people don't do it. The only reason for including D/s in BD/SM is convenience IMO, as a broad based label (label wars are fun, some use transgender to mean a whole spectrum of gender playing weirdos like me, others get conniption fits and claim it only covers those who are going to transition and get srs...go figure). D/s is about power, and there are plenty of service D/s relationships, or married ones, where there is zero play, they aren't kinky per se, they simply have a relationship that grants more power to one over the other then usually happens (on the other hand, with a female sub marriage, it isn't all that much different then a victorian era marriage, where the wife was de facto total property of the husband, including having to give him sex anytime he wanted it, no such thing as spousal rape back then; only difference is, the sub wife wants that dynamic, back then they had no choice).Likewise, there are BD'SM people, lifestyle people, where it is all about the play, they aren't one bit into submission.......

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 11:25:26 AM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I take it you're a member of that fet group redmagic? The debate gets kinda spirited and some of those guys (and gals) have been around so long their first set of nipple clamps were made from live trilobites.

You SOB, I just spit out coffee on my monitor reading that one, holy shit:)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 12:25:47 PM   
ClassAct2006


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		Neither is better nor worse than the other. I don't think those who identify as slave are useless. Just as men who know nothing about this think because I call myself submissive that cannot be true because I am extremely competent at life and career and don't need saving are wrong. You can be a submissive or a slave and still utterly competent.

Labels help to an extent - it certainly helps to say I'm sub not dom or straight not gay and that I'm female. However you always need to explore what people mean by the labels they choose to use. I do like to feel owned in a relationship. I've never used a safe word, although I've often had one and I sometimes think I'm closer to slave than sub but it all depends on your definitions of those terms. They are good issues to talk about with a potential partner so there is no mis understanding and I suspect it sometimes depends on the relationship. Just as some men don't marry their long term partner but someone else comes along whom they marry and the reason is that the second relationship was different, the same can apply in how submissive or owned one might feel with a particular man - eg if you don't trust him and don't love him and think he loves you you'd be silly to give up huge amounts of power to him.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 12:34:28 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


The hierarchy they are talking about is within the community as a whole, and people assigning terms like 'true' to something, as in "I am in a true M/s relationship,because my master could do anything to me he wanted, and I cannot stop him, while in your relationship you have a safeword/out clause, so you aren't really a slave".


Thank you Lauren. That's the point I was trying to make, but you said it much better than I did.

I have chosen to be the submissive partner in our relationship. It's not because he's superior, but because these roles allow us to fit together like puzzle pieces, using each others strong points to form a strong relationship.

But, regardless of how our relationship works, we do not have the right to determine the value of the roles chosen by others in the community. Creating a caste system like that list, does exactly that...it devalues some of the people within our community.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 2/23/2013 12:37:01 PM >

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 1:18:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsGypsey

The OP has lots to think about from all the responses that everyone has provided. I just wanted to ask the OP if (and this is what it sounds like to me) you are trying to determine what your final goal is, the question I'd like to ask is: do you have to decide on your final goal now?

It may be that you're in another relationship and at the beginning, you defined your role in one way. Then 2 or 3 years down the line, what your goal was, or your final destination, changed multiple times. So do you need to decide on what/who you want to be right now?


I'd say don't have any goal whatsoever.

Let life happen organically.

Just let go and let be.


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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 2:31:42 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


The hierarchy they are talking about is within the community as a whole, and people assigning terms like 'true' to something, as in "I am in a true M/s relationship,because my master could do anything to me he wanted, and I cannot stop him, while in your relationship you have a safeword/out clause, so you aren't really a slave".


Thank you Lauren. That's the point I was trying to make, but you said it much better than I did.

I have chosen to be the submissive partner in our relationship. It's not because he's superior, but because these roles allow us to fit together like puzzle pieces, using each others strong points to form a strong relationship.

But, regardless of how our relationship works, we do not have the right to determine the value of the roles chosen by others in the community. Creating a caste system like that list, does exactly that...it devalues some of the people within our community.



Exactly, the key words are 'chosen to submit', and how that came about, with whom, is between you and whoever you submit to, the rules, the scope of it, etc.

Funny story, I was at a play party with my then owned/lady (still my wife) and a friend of ours , a dominant female (not in any kind of relationship with us, other then a good friend and mentor), and some jackass of a domme, with some suitable title like "Lady Queen Anne of the Royal Court of King Elgar" (not her real title, not worth remembering it to be honest, on top of it she was a slag I wouldn't let anyone else submit to, other then myself) and she, unbidden, came over and started yelling at my wife that she was no kind of domme/owner, and actually came over and hit me with a flogger or something and told me I had no right to look my lady in the eyes like that (meanwhile, she loved me doing that while she tormented me, at the time she had the tens unit on me and had me writhing, I was on 6" heels, barely balancing, she was standing on something to maintain eye contact so she could watch me suffer)....our friend got so incensed, that before telling a DM what had happened, she took her whip off the hook on her belt and let "The Queen" have it right on the ass, and told her if she ever, ever spoke to or got near someone she knew, she would regret it to the end of her life (our friend is small, only about 5' tall, but holy shit, was she a terror).

This women violated any number of rules in playspace, not to mention that a sub is someone else's unless given permission, and her attitude was crass, demeaning and otherwise upsetting to my wife, myself and our friend. I found out later that the group running the play party banned her from their parties, and also that the club it was run at banned her as well.....I heard later from friends of mine in the leather community in NYC, serious leather people, that she thought of herself as better then others because she had been trained by some assholes calling themselves "Old Guard" (and quite frankly, most of that Old Guard stuff was complete drivel, or at least their claim to authenticity or whatever), and thought she had inherited her right to do as she wished from that and some inflated title bestowed upon her (btw, to those seriously into the leather scene, who are proud of titles earned and so forth, this is not aimed at you; that isn't my scene, but I know a lot of wonderful, respectful people who do, including the people I just referenced, and I respect them and their titles, but they would never do what that slag did, either).

I never really understood the meddling, the one upmanship, part of the allure of this world to me is we are creating something uniquely ourselves, that we are stepping outside the norms of so called society, the religious taboos, the rigid roles, and creating something ourselves.....there is far too much judgement in the outside world, straights judging gays who want to marry, religious right types wanting to make it a crime to have sex for anything but turning out kids, anti porn feminists, authoritarians of all sorts.....what the fuck is the joy in taking an individual expression of self and turning it into a hierarchy of trueness? Find your bliss with whomever you wish, thumb your nose at the fucking vanilla types who are so proud of being boring fucks (if they are boring plenty of vanilla types are happy, fun people, but don't judge others), and to hell with the terms, the hierarchy or enlightened truth. Know where truth comes out? Watching a couple (or more) together, you can see it in their faces, you see some of the bliss I have, whether it is the nude slave girl in the collar proudly kneeling at her dommes feet, having her hair stroked, or the dominant wife beating the crap out of her husbands ass and seeing the looks on their faces, or the girl with the gorgeous tattoos and body piercings her dominant bestowed on her showing them off with pride....it is all good,and all real (though that gal, like Oside Girl, got written in my black book and struck out three times, I am a green eyed jealous bitch when I see women who are drop dead gorgeous *smile*).

< Message edited by njlauren -- 2/23/2013 2:36:43 PM >

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 4:20:38 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm not the OP, but I wanted to take a minute to say how much I have enjoyed this conversation.


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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 4:22:45 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		S and M were the precurors as far as I can tell. At least in the back covers of adult magazines
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I remember the term BDSM from the early 80's.

"S and M" is older than BDSM. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. Everything I've ever seen, ever, has placed BDSM as a genuinely online-inspired acronym, like LOL. And that it was coined in the early 1990s.

All that means is that if you're right, and you can prove it by finding anything in writing, then you'll singlehandedly change the etymology of the word.



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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 7:21:44 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
-If you finally get to the point where you can't do anything without your M's permission, if you can't take a drink of water, go to the bathroom, put on a pair of socks, blink your eyes, breath, then you are at last a full slave...And it is bullshit.

Yup, I agree.

The whole idea is ridiculous on oh so many levels. Humans just don't reduce down to such simple constructs. For starters there is no "scale" of submission that applies to everyone starting from trivial crap and going to "deep stuff". Sharing out Carol would be a significant deal. Sharing out some swinger/poly slave.... not so much. Everyone is different. Everyone has both different challenges and different interests and different needs/wants/desires. How could anyone possibly hope to say "Oh, she's a 7.362 on the submission scale?"

Then, of course, is the total bunk of "slave" being somehow better than "bottom". I think we all chase the things that fascinate us. I'm interested in control and intimacy and how deep I can get into her brain. In what way does that make me (or our relationship) "better" than someone who's interested in extremes of kinky sex? It seems to me that what makes for a happy couple is "better".

"this is how you become real", they can fuck off and die.
I'm not exactly "deep into the lifestyle" but I have never, ever, not once spoken to anyone I would even remotely consider respecting who thought in terms of "real". In point of fact pretty much the moment someone who is not new uses that term I know right away I can discount anything else they say.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 7:39:32 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
It seems to me that what makes for a happy couple is "better".


This is absolute truth. I don't care if you have sex while swinging from a chandelier, making monkey noises. I don't care if you only believe that sex gets done in missionary position in the dark, while wearing a high necked nightgown. I'm going to judge you as successful based on the longevity of your happiness, not whether you've hit level 9 on some internet fantasists website list.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/23/2013 9:15:18 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I'm going to judge you as successful based on the longevity of your happiness

That used to be my thought but I modified it slightly after watching a different short-term model evolve. Now what I'd say is, "I judge based on how well it performs against the original design specs." If you were hoping for a hot 3 month fling and you got it and everyone had a good time then YAY!

I met a couple locally that had a 1 (or maybe 2) year contract. It was never intended to be long-term. I can't argue with the success.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/24/2013 7:52:43 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Good point.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/24/2013 10:04:22 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
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quote:

"I judge based on how well it performs against the original design specs."
Lol, good rule.

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Profile   Post #: 176
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